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Author Topic: 26 US Republican Governors (and 1 Democratic Gov) give ISIS exactly what they want
LetterRip
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quote:
States protesting the admission of refugees range from Alabama and Georgia, to Texas and Arizona, to Michigan and Illinois, to Maine and New Hampshire. Among these 27 states, all but one have Republican governors.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/16/world/paris-attacks-syrian-refugees-backlash/

I'm sure ISIS is ecstatic. The leaving of a forged passport implying that the terrorists were refugees was probably for exactly this sort of result.

[ November 17, 2015, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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LetterRip
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And the states are Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, North Carolina, Ohio, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wisconsin
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Gaoics79
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Why?
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kmbboots
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********. Because it is easy and cheap to appeal to the worst in us rather than the best. Because frightened people are easily led. It is pure politics as the governors don't have the power to do this anyway. And because ********.
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Fenring
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ISIS isn't the only possible party that could have arranged for the fake passport to be found. I don't see the clear, obvious line whereby ISIS gains from the passport find. I've heard the theory that they want to elicit backlash which in turn helps their recruiting, but why would it help to specifically think that it was a refugee who did it, rather than an ISIS agent from elsewhere?
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ScottF
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Wouldn't an exodus of refugees be a near-perfect place to slide in and gain entry into any compassionate country? I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with these governors (haven't looked into what they're actually saying yet) but it seems you'd be hard pressed to craft a better scenario for bad people from a specific region to enter another country. Unless the assumption is that background checks against impoverished Syrians are reliable enough to mitigate the risk.
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stilesbn
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From what I can tell, the unspoken argument is that the risk of losing a few hundred or even a few thousand American lives is worth the risk of being compassionate. After all, if we don't let them in here many of them will die in Syria and an American life is not worth more than a Syrian life. From a life for a life calculation we come out on top if we let them in even if that facilitates a terrorist attack on American soil.
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NobleHunter
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Attacks in the West is not Daesh's goal. Their goal is to bolster and expand the territory they control. They don't want to send people to compassionate countries, they want Muslims from those countries to come to Iraq or Syria.

The intent of attacks seem to be to encourage the isolation and oppression of Muslims in the West so they are easier to recruit.

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kmbboots
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Paris Attackers Weren’t Refugees, According to Top EU Official
The Islamic State wants you to hate refugees
Here's what the U.S. process for vetting Syrian refugees actually looks like

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
ISIS isn't the only possible party that could have arranged for the fake passport to be found. I don't see the clear, obvious line whereby ISIS gains from the passport find. I've heard the theory that they want to elicit backlash which in turn helps their recruiting, but why would it help to specifically think that it was a refugee who did it, rather than an ISIS agent from elsewhere?

Many right-wing sources have claimed that ISIS is sending terrorists in disguised as refugees. Confirming what people want to believe is a lot easier than giving them something else to believe, even when the something else makes more sense.
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JoshCrow
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I have heard one candidate (forget who) fallaciously argue that "you wouldn't feed a bag of candies to your kid if you knew one or two in there were toxic".

Of course, if one embraces that argument logically one is forced to embrace all kinds of crazy things, including not letting in young white males on the grounds that some of those have been known to shoot up schools, not letting people drive cars because there are reckless drivers, and not letting people own guns because some of them are irresponsible. It's a shame the fear overrides both logic and compassion.

Chris Christie wins this particular race to the bottom, for arguing against letting in 5 year olds. Really, Chris? Really?

[ November 17, 2015, 12:31 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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Wayward Son
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Wow, Chris Christie is a real coward, isn't he? I bet he'd be willing to send our troops into Syria, but allow a 5-year-old to live down the street is too dangerous! [Roll Eyes]
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NobleHunter
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He did say that they shouldn't let orphans in because they didn't have family to care for them. The sentence was a bit mangled but I don't think he was concerned about "vetting" orphans.
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kmbboots
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[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]
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Pete at Home
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Like the LDS thread title, this thread title is obviously false.

Even if we accept the ludicrous premise that ISIS cares aboutvwhat happens to the bulk of the refugees, the governors OBVIOUSLY lack power to contravene the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th amendment. Their pandering to panic is ineffectual. They haven't given anyone anything except a meaningless soundbite. Their proclamations have as much effect as Dennis Roman's wedding dress

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Seriati
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Am I missing something? Why does it make sense to resettle people with absolutely no cultural similarities into the United States? Maybe the risk is overblown, but its certainly not zero or even trivial.
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Pete at Home
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..if the federal government wants to make place for the Syrian refugees in the state of Georgia then the refugees are in Georgia. Easier than a spanked Redhead.

Before the 14th states could do like Missouri's extermination order, declare that a group of people cannot enter the state. But the 14a p&e took that power away.

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Gaoics79
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I am still unclear on the logic behind the assertion that ISIL wants refugees to be blamed for the attacks or has an interest in closing the door on refugees. If anything, it seems to me that their motivation would be to keep the doors open as much as possible.

However, as a matter if disclosure I am in the camp that the refugees should not be allowed in western countries, a position I held prior to the Paris attacks.

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TomDavidson
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*nod* There are many uninformed people who believe that ISIS is primarily interested in fighting the West.
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NobleHunter
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The way I've heard it is Daesh wants all Muslims to live in their "Caliphate" which can't very well happen if they're living in Western countries. It's also bad PR if every one in the territory you control is desparate to leave. Not to mention if enough people leave, quality of life starts dropping even more for the people who are left. It's the same motivators that led to the Berlin Wall.

Seriati, they have a great deal of cultural similarity to a large (in absolute terms anyways) number of Americans. I don't know how many Syrians live in the US but you do have substantial numbers of Arabs.

I have other reasons but their rooted in ideas about the moral obligation of charity and I don't know if we could agree on basic principles even if I could express mine clearly enough.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Seriati:
Am I missing something? Why does it make sense to resettle people with absolutely no cultural similarities into the United States? Maybe the risk is overblown, but its certainly not zero or even trivial.

Ooooh, look what you stepped in!
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Pete at Home
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Because, um, that's what America has always been. A mix of cultures. I concede the possibility that some culture might mix badly with the Americanized ones,but Syrians are basically the same culture as Lebanese. Separating them was a stupid western European idea that has come back to bite them in the ass. Syrians and Lebanese are the most cosmopolitan and European of middle easterners, more so than other successfully assimilated groups.

The threat isn't from the Syrian refugees (though no doubt some Isis types are among us). The problem is from the politically correct dupes and collaborators that say we can't even screen the refugees for Islamist views. If those are the rules, then of course most Americans will want to turn the lot away.

[ November 17, 2015, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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JoshCrow
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Make 'em eat bacon on the way in. You know, as a test. And also, as a welcome to America, because what's more American than eating bacon?
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cherrypoptart
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If you insist on letting these people in how do you prevent ISIS agents from coming in with them?

Or have you done the math and calculated that a hundred Americans dying in a Paris style terrorist attack carried out by ISIS agents who infiltrated into America with refugees is worth the tens of thousands of refugee lives that will be improved by being able to live in America?

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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:

However, as a matter if disclosure I am in the camp that the refugees should not be allowed in western countries, a position I held prior to the Paris attacks.

Would you change your mind if a good program were in place to integrate them into the culture and they were not geographically concentrated in one area?
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JoshCrow
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
If you insist on letting these people in how do you prevent ISIS agents from coming in with them?

Or have you done the math and calculated that a hundred Americans dying in a Paris style terrorist attack carried out by ISIS agents who infiltrated into America with refugees is worth the tens of thousands of refugee lives that will be improved by being able to live in America?

If it helps your math, I would offer this:
quote:
Of the 745,000 refugees who have arrived in America since Sept. 11, none have been arrested for domestic terrorism charges.
I understand that there is risk involved, and that things could change tomorrow - but is the risk really that much greater than what we see in the already-settled population? We already have mass-shooters present in a certain negligible percentage of the population - would their existence justify disallowing us from being refugees to another country if war came here?

quote:
Since 1945, the U.S. has welcomed over three million refugees, and each wave was accompanied by worries of subversion by America’s enemies. Then, as now, politicians proclaimed that it would be “a tragic blunder” to accept refugees fleeing communism, out of fear of letting in potential communist spies and sympathizers. Past refugees have assimilated so thoroughly into American life that we seem to have forgotten the groundless fears that accompanied their arrival.


[ November 17, 2015, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: JoshCrow ]

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cherrypoptart
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As for the governors while I do agree that they lack the power to legally prohibit the refugees from being settled in their states it is still worth the effort to get on record as being opposed to this because when the inevitable terrorist attacks happen and are traced back to ISIS agents that Obama forced in against the will of many Americans we will know exactly the right people to blame and not all of them will be ISIS.

There was a moving sequence in the movie "Gangs of New York" in which it showed the Irish immigrants being immediately drafted into the Union Army as they set foot in America and thousands of them being buried after battle in the Civil War soon after that. But for those who survived they certainly earned their citizenship. Japanese Americans during WWII were also allowed to serve in the American Army and their unit was the most decorated in our history.

Why not allow healthy military age men and women running away from ISIS the opportunity to defeat it instead? I understand Obama spent a few hundred million dollars training 4 or 5 Syrians in Syria to fight ISIS so I can appreciate the criticism that this has already been tried and it failed but surely there is a more cost effective way to go about it. It may be better for the Muslims to volunteer to do this themselves so ISIS can't accuse us of sending Crusaders otherwise I'd be all for letting the more than ten million illegals have this opportunity to fight ISIS.

Upon this service to our country and to Islam and to their own home countries and the people there when ISIS has been defeated they will have earned their citizenship and proven their patriotism and trustworthiness. Obama said if people want to pop off then they should come up with some ideas and plans and that is mine. And if they refuse to serve why do we want more cowards in our country? Don't we have enough liberals and people of French ancestry here as it is? Come on now, don't cry. You knew that was coming or should have.

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Gaoics79
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Josh there is no such program. Every effort thus far has failed. Frankly even assimilation has been no gurantee.

The truth is, the refugee trojan horse is only the most immediate short term threat. The reason France and other European countries are going to be seeing these attacks regularly from now on is because they have big unassimilated Muslim populations.

Inviting hundreds of thousands of new unassimilated Muslims only grows the pool of ISIL (or its successor's) recruits.

The Europeans were fools to let such a huge Muslim population in their borders. Now they face an ugly choice: turn into monsters and engage in ethnic cleansing or learn to live with endemic terrorism.

And no, I still haven't seen any logical explanation as to how ISIL benefits from closing the door on refugees. It is plainly obvious that their interests are served far more by having refugees pouring into enemy lands than by the refugees rotting in Turkish camps.

They have already announced their intentions to exploit refugees and did so prior to the Paris attacks. Maybe we should stop overcomplicating something relatively simple. There is no need for complex motive speculation and reverse psychology. ISIL is not a subtle group.

[ November 17, 2015, 02:40 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:
If you insist on letting these people in how do you prevent ISIS agents from coming in with them?

Or have you done the math and calculated that a hundred Americans dying in a Paris style terrorist attack carried out by ISIS agents who infiltrated into America with refugees is worth the tens of thousands of refugee lives that will be improved by being able to live in America?

We lose 5 times a Paris attack every year just due to accidental gun deaths and we get...what in return? What is the math on that?
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cherrypoptart
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I have to wonder if a big part of the reason that most Muslim countries don't want to take in these refugees has less to do with logistics and the ability to support them than it does with the now proven understanding that, just as ISIS promised many months ago, these refugee populations and infiltrated by ISIS agents who will engage in terrorist attacks shortly after they are allowed in. If other Muslim countries understand this and have acted on it by closing their borders and refusing to accept these refugees how does it make any sense that we don't do the same for our own safety?
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cherrypoptart
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As to all the people who die in America in other ways the obvious response is that we have enough people dying already so there is no need to add to their numbers. For instance, illegals who are driving drunk have killed thousands of Americans over the years, maybe even tens of thousands. But of course even more Americans die from other American citizens who are driving drunk so maybe we shouldn't have worry so much about the illegals? Perhaps if an illegal hadn't driven drunk and wiped out three generations of a family on their way back from an amusement park a drunk American would have done it anyway? Unlikely. It's more likely they would have made it home okay. So just like with terrorism deaths there is no need to add any more people killed than we have already.

But in my next post I will make the better counterargument for you.

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NobleHunter
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quote:
They mean what they say.
And they say refugees are their enemy. They forged a passport for a reason.

The Europeans could also stop being so racist and assimilate those populations. An option we need to remember on this side of the pond as well.
quote:
I have to wonder if a big part of the reason that most Muslim countries don't want to take in these refugees has less to do with logistics and the ability to support them than it does with the now proven understanding that, just as ISIS promised many months ago, these refugee populations and infiltrated by ISIS agents who will engage in terrorist attacks shortly after they are allowed in. If other Muslim countries understand this and have acted on it by closing their borders and refusing to accept these refugees how does it make any sense that we don't do the same for our own safety?
It's awful how Muslim countries like Turkey and Lebanon are turning away refugees. Oh. Wait.

The only other accessible Muslim countries are Jordan and Saudi Arabia (unless they go across Iraq into Iran which seems unlikely) and I don't know how many refugees they've taken in.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
*nod* There are many uninformed people who believe that ISIS is primarily interested in fighting the West.

Given the billions of dollars in their bank account, ISIL can easily afford to walk and chew bubble gum. Besides which, splashy attacks on the west are fantastic PR for recruitment.
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cherrypoptart
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Sometimes it seems like too many posters here are "lawyering" and by that in this context I mean they seem to know the counter arguments to their positions and all the logical rebuttals but they will never bring them up themselves because they don't want to weaken their own arguments. Quite honestly I find that irritating.

So, here is a better argument for bringing in illegals and refugees than people die from Americans with guns or American drunk drivers anyway so a few (thousand) more shouldn't matter.

------------------------------------------------

If these people stayed in their war torn and third world countries they would most certainly never be able to live up to and realize their human potential. Helping them achieve that helps benefit humanity in ways that are too innumerable to be easily measured and defined.

So you have the Boston bombers who killed a few and wounded hundreds. You have the Paris terrorists who murdered more than a hundred innocent people. You have drunk driving illegals who have killed thousands of Americans.

But you have literally millions more hard working and productive people who are all contributing to the economy but more than that you have thousands who are making substantial breakthrough in technology, medicine, and the sciences that help hundreds of millions of people in America and around the world live longer and much more productive lives. And their discoveries and breakthroughs don't end with their own immediate achievements which can be substantial in and of themselves but form and extend the foundations of knowledge upon which even greater achievements and advances can be built in the future.

The benefit to all of humanity of this is much greater than the costs of the bad actions of a relative handful of their compatriots.

So that's a good argument for more immigration and allowing in more refugees. They will contribute much more to humanity than they are likely to do if they are left dodging drug gangs in South America until they are killed or forced to join one or facing equivalently dire situations in Africa and the Middle-East and Asia.

Of course, a counter-counter argument to that is that we never will know what benefits to mankind the Americans who die from terrorism or illegals who are drunk drivers would have come up with now that they are dead and all of the children and progeny they might have had for the next thousand years are lost forever as well. But maybe we don't want to delve that deeply into it.

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kmbboots
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We don't have make that argument. We already know it is the right thing to do. We have very little hope in appealing to your compassion and are merely trying to address your fear.
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cherrypoptart
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As for ISIS not wanting us to take refugees I would have to say that doesn't make sense. They not only want us to take refugees so they can infiltrate our countries with their terrorist agents but also they are quite obviously pursuing the hijrah strategy which is certainly another reason why other Muslim countries do not want to take in these Muslim refugees.

I'm sure nobody will like this source but the information about Islam commanding to conquer by immigrating into other lands is accurate.

So that separates Muslims from just about every other group of people in the world, distinguishes them from all other immigrants. Japanese aren't coming to America to convert people to Shinto and Buddhism. Indians aren't coming here to convert us to Hinduism. Jews are not trying to convert people to Judaism. The only possible exception might be Christians but we're already a Christian nation so it doesn't make much sense for Christians to try infiltrating themselves into America as refugees to convert us.

The notion that Muslims are just like any other immigrant group is proven false in so many ways and this is just one more of them.

It might help if their religion didn't directly contradict both our Constitution and the UN Charter on Human Rights by still having AND ENFORCING the death penalty for apostates and people who mock Mohamed. You can't have freedom of religion if there is still the death penalty which is still enforced for converting out of it and you can't have freedom of speech, not in the form guaranteed by our Constitution, if there is still the death penalty in Islam AND IT IS STILL CARRIED OUT for mocking their prophet.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/05/11/expert-warns-against-muslim-immigration-its-a-religious-obligation-to-spread-islam/

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cherrypoptart
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Well I see my next comment and I don't like it very much so I will bracket it in nice sentiments wishing everyone an early Happy Holidays or if you are of the Starbucks persuasion then a very happy red. I hope everyone is doing well and is healthy and full of joy because I know I am. Okay and now for the terrible response to the hurtful arrow of pain shot at the hearts of all conservatives who are accused of not having compassion when that's hardly exactly the case. Maybe they don't have the same degree of compassion for everyone in the world as they have for their fellow Americans but that's not the same has having no compassion at all, is it? So anyways the response that I kind of already regret but...

And I have little hope of appealing to your compassion for the innocent victims of terrorism and illegals either and also no hope of appealing to your fear since you show none. My last hope was to appeal to your reason but I hit another dry well there too.

And having gotten that off my chest let me just say I appreciate the kindness of people willing to allow such venting even as I permit them the same. Hopefully that is good for our stress levels to get them down by being allowed such releases and our blood pressure won't be elevated putting us at risk for heart problems, stroke, and the like. So it's all good, right?

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Pyrtolin
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ISIS wants to rule its territories. The only reason that it attack other countries is because those countries aren't responding well enough to other provocation to come in and cause collateral damage and prove that they're the enemy that the people need ISIS to defend them from. Countries that accept refugees disrupt its narrative, while those that turn them away support it and give it power as it relates the misery of those that are mistreated and kept in limbo back home.

ISIS can only maintain its power so long at there is a bit outside threat to defend against. Without that bogeyman, its oppressive domestic tactics make it the enemy of its people rather than its protector forced into brutality for their best interests.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:

It might help if their religion didn't directly contradict both our Constitution and the UN Charter on Human Rights by still having AND ENFORCING the death penalty for apostates and people who mock Mohamed. You can't have freedom of religion if there is still the death penalty which is still enforced for converting out of it and you can't have freedom of speech, not in the form guaranteed by our Constitution, if there is still the death penalty in Islam AND IT IS STILL CARRIED OUT for mocking their prophet.

Please, feel free to identify one Mosque in the US which enforces this in any way.

I mean, I could rattle off a number of death penalties prescribed in the OT as well, but we don't see hue and cry about Christians or Jews trying to enforce those.

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Gaoics79
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Pyr you haven't explained how closing European borders helps that aim.

Indeed, if the goal is to provoke Western powers into attacking it, then it would seem that using refugees to infiltrate western countries and attack them from within is the logical strategy.

Indeed, that is just what ISIL said it was going to do and exactly what it did. The villification of refugees is a completetly incidental side effect of that strategy.

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