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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » 26 US Republican Governors (and 1 Democratic Gov) give ISIS exactly what they want (Page 2)

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Author Topic: 26 US Republican Governors (and 1 Democratic Gov) give ISIS exactly what they want
NobleHunter
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Because they want Muslim communities currently in the West to feel marginalized and isolated. Villifying refugees will also villify existing communities, fostering attitudes that make more susceptible to Daesh propaganda to either launch further attacks or to travel to the Middle East as reinforcements.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Pyr you haven't explained how closing European borders helps that aim.


Because it makes refugees miserable and belies Western claims of compassion. We treat the Refugees as unwanted Trash? ISIS gains power and supporters, because it "cares"

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jasonr
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Okay but this does not explain how stopping the flow of refugees helps ISIL. If refugees continue to pour into European countries they will still be marginalized and villified and ISIL still gets more opportunities to infiltrate the west.

In my scenario (refugees shut out) ISIL gets a win/ lose. I. Yours they get a win / win. I know which one I prefer and which one ISIL would logically prefer....

quote:
Because they want Muslim communities currently in the West to feel marginalized and isolated. Villifying refugees will also villify existing communities, fostering attitudes that make more susceptible to Daesh propaganda to either launch further attacks or to travel to the Middle East as reinforcements.


[ November 17, 2015, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
If refugees continue to pour into European countries they will still be marginalized and villified...
Only by the ********.
So let's not let the ******** do that.

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jasonr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
If refugees continue to pour into European countries they will still be marginalized and villified...
Only by the ********.
So let's not let the ******** do that.

Impossible. A few more attacks (and there will be more) and any politician that thinks like you will be gone. Now I'm just telling you what I think's gonna happen. Care to place bets?
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NobleHunter
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Because they think Muslims should stay in countries run by Muslims, preferably "real" Muslims like Daesh. People fleeing to the secular West refutes their beliefs about how things ought to be.

Also, closing Europe to refugees means they all stay in Middle-Eastern countries which are presumably intended targets for phase II of Daesh's expansion. Western Europe is Phase IV or Phase V, at least. If the presence of refugees is beneficial to them, as you argue, then it makes sense to position them to support the next phase rather than a distant one.

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cherrypoptart
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Ben Carson has the right idea here and it doesn't hurt that I thought of it independently a long time ago myself as I'm sure countless others have as well since it is so obvious.

Let's show our compassion by helping these Muslim refugees settle peacefully into other Muslim countries.

Of course Christians and Yazzidis and other religious minorities can come to America since they will not likely be welcomed well into Muslim countries.

Why should we be more compassionate to Muslims than other Muslims, especially when our compassion gets us killed?

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NobleHunter
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Because we ought to be compassionate and should not let fear rule our actions. Because there are too many refugees for the region to absorb even if we send money and other resources. Because some of the refugees don't want to spend cod knows how long stuffed into a refugee camp.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Let's show our compassion by helping these Muslim refugees settle peacefully into other Muslim countries.
We should move people from one war torn region struck with famine to another war torn region struck with famine? That's clever.

And meanwhile, we can still clearly showcase our bigotry and feed ISIS the recruits it wants. Everyone wins. Well ISIS and the bigots, at least. But they're all that really matter here, right?

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
If refugees continue to pour into European countries they will still be marginalized and villified...
Only by the ********.
So let's not let the ******** do that.

Impossible. A few more attacks (and there will be more) and any politician that thinks like you will be gone. Now I'm just telling you what I think's gonna happen. Care to place bets?
Ah, so you're saying that terrorism really is an effective strategy and that they're winning the overall war by terrorizing us into becoming the vile monsters they want us to be?
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Okay but this does not explain how stopping the flow of refugees helps ISIL. If refugees continue to pour into European countries they will still be marginalized and villified and ISIL still gets more opportunities to infiltrate the west.

Shutting out refugees is vilifying them. Accepting them is accepting them, not vilifying them. Individuals will be bigots on their own time, they're not relevant to anyone. ISIS wants cultural rejection not individual jerks outing themselves as jerks. The latter has little to no value to them.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
A few more attacks (and there will be more) and any politician that thinks like you will be gone.
Bull. Just because conservatives are cowards doesn't mean that everyone in the West has lost their spine.

-------

quote:
Let's show our compassion by helping these Muslim refugees settle peacefully into other Muslim countries.
Do you intend to ask each refugee whether they're religious Muslims, cultural Muslims, or non-Muslim? Bear in mind that if you're concerned about being infiltrated, the people you ask can lie.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:

Why should we be more compassionate to Muslims than other Muslims, especially when our compassion gets us killed?

Yep. It is our compassion that is the problem. [Roll Eyes]
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AI Wessex
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I'm thinking it's about time we sent back all immigrants who speak with an accent or dress differently than real Americans. First we have to find a real American (Duck Dynasty?) to find out what one of them looks and talks like. Lord, let it be me. Let's include Catholics while we're at it. And Italians. Democrats.

Those among us who are immigrants or only second generation citizens may not be completely verifiable. Would any of you self-deport or send your spouses back? It would make the rest of us feel *so* much more secure.

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jasonr
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quote:
Bull. Just because conservatives are cowards doesn't mean that everyone in the West has lost their spine.
And the fools who created this problem with their multiculturalist idiocy will be swept away by right wing extremists. It is already starting.

But the thing is, I don't have a problem with the boyscout kumbaya position per say if it's honest. Cowardice is demanding "courage" to do the right thing but refusing to acknowledge risk or sacrifice inherent to this path. Courage is asking people to sacrifice with eyes open to the consequences not duping them into it with trickery and double speak and guilt mongering.

When Germans took in Jews knowing they were taking their lives into their hands if caught - that's courage. They didn't need to lie to themselves (and those around them)

[ November 17, 2015, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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TomDavidson
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The idea that this represents substantial risk is laughable. Accusing people capable of rationally assessing threat of "duping" the public -- when in fact the exact opposite is the case -- is offensively disingenuous.
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jasonr
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After Paris you're the one using laughable reasoning. In the USA with its geographic advantages your point would be at least debatable. In Europe it's a farce. You're already proven wrong and will continue to be proven wrong over the next little while.
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AI Wessex
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That's a guess, right?
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jasonr
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Lol yes. Don't call the NSA on me
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Why should we be more compassionate to Muslims than other Muslims, especially when our compassion gets us killed?
Hey, cherry, who do you think ISIS is killing? Christians? [LOL]
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TomDavidson
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quote:
After Paris you're the one using laughable reasoning.
What about Paris do you think was a game-changer, especially? The attack on Paris was nothing particularly special, although it was deeply tragic for those involved.
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Pete at Home
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I agree that the Europeans made a fatal mistake when they let so many Muslims into their lands unassimilated.

And I have already said that I think the "this is what ISIS wants argument is total crap. Driving moderate Muslim into lands ISIS is not ready to invade is like the cheap Terraforming the core planets did in the Firefly series. Send independent minded people out ahead to build the infrastructure, then come in later and conquer.

I also admit that prior to this Paris attack I was against letting any Syrian immigrants in.

But now that I have seen my own former home city under ISIS' heavy hand, I can't help but see them as potential fellow sufferers from a shared enemy.

the Syrian refugees include Christians, Y-axiss, Jews, and Kurdish Muslims who AFAIK aren't carriers of the Islamist disease.

I use the word ISLAMIST because unlike the Fox News shibboleth "radical Islam", Islamist was coined by moderate Muslims. So anyone who insinuates that I am getting info from islamophobes will be asked to get off my leg. (Ornery rules impede me from using words like intentionally obtuse, fifth column, and collaborator)

I am still OK to live and let die. I am content to save only those we can feel reasonably secure are harmless. I can respect saying, better to let a hundred innocents die than protect another Khomeini from his enemies. But there is a level of moral cowardice that I just can't live with. Some of these people can be shown to be ISIS-free with a little due diligence on our parts. Let's at least look at these human beings that we are sending backstop torture rape and death.

As for a bacon test, that's just dumb. The 911 hijackers hung out with whores and strippers. Like many of the crusaders of yore, they reckon that the infidel blood they will spill will cleanse them from whatever sinful pleasures they indulge in. Their god (related more to Ba'al than to El) would wink at them eating bacon from between the thighs of a menstruating street whore, so long as they shed infidel blood afterwards in the name of their hateful master.

[ November 17, 2015, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Son:
quote:
Why should we be more compassionate to Muslims than other Muslims, especially when our compassion gets us killed?
Hey, cherry, who do you think ISIS is killing? Christians? [LOL]
Maybe I'm misreading your sarcasm, but yeah, ISIS is killing plenty of Christians, and destroying churches as well. What was the joke again?
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Pete at Home
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Christians, Yazidis, and Muslims who are ethnic Kurds which in this century makes them safe . (Kurds were genocidal bastardy 100 years ago, as were Christians of 600 years ago.)

[ November 17, 2015, 08:20 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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I am stunned at the sheer number of Ornerians on both sides of the political spectrum have forgotten to pay the empathy bill.

quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:
After Paris you're the one using laughable reasoning.
What about Paris do you think was a game-changer, especially? The attack on Paris was nothing particularly special, although it was deeply tragic for those involved.
Newsflash-- tragedy by definition is tragic to any informed and empathic human being. The play Oedipus wasn't only tragic to "those involved." The audience found the story tragic. Hence the word "tragedy."

[ November 17, 2015, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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I may have overly narrowed the field to human beings. I suspect that even some lower animals will have a dim sense that what happened in Paris was tragic.

Otho, if by "persons involved" Tom meant "persons who give a flying ****" then what he said is true albeit tautological

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jasonr
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quote:
What about Paris do you think was a game-changer, especially? The attack on Paris was nothing particularly special, although it was deeply tragic for those involved.
Well I'll agree that the fact that a "refugee" was implicated in the attack is not super significant, in the sense that it was pretty obvious what was going to happen. ISIL said they were going to put infiltrators in with the refugees to make attacks on European countries. Thousands of refugees (and other "migrants") poured into Europe's borders with almost no real screening, at Europe's invitation. Then *aghast!!* ISIL did precisely what they promised to do. ISIL is like that - they just flat out tell you what their plans are and then they carry out the plans they have announced to you. Which is why I think all this motive speculation and reverse psychology BS is so funny - ISIL is the one organization that seems to be totally up front about their plans and is pretty honest about them!

I will agree the attack was not special. It's going to become commonplace. And I will agree that the refugee trojan horse problem isn't the main issue - the existing population of Muslims is. But the refugees definitely are going to make things especially easy for ISIL. The Europeans dug this hole with decades of stupid immigration policies. But they probably ought to stop digging.

As for it being a "game changer" maybe not. It might be the next attack, or the one after that. But at some point the game will change. I think you know I'm right about that.

[ November 17, 2015, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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TomDavidson
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My word. This sort of thing really brings out the bigotry. [Frown] The existing population is the real problem, eh?

But along that line: as far as I know, every single person identified in the attack has been a European citizen. Interestingly, four of them were carrying false passports identifying them as citizens of other countries, and one was carrying a false refugee ID. Are you aware of a killer positively identified as an actual refugee?

[ November 17, 2015, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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ScottF
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
My word. This sort of thing really brings out the bigotry. [Frown] The existing population is the real problem, eh?

You left out a word, probably by mistake.

But along that line: as far as I know, every single person identified in the attack has been a European citizen.

How does this even even remotely refute the notion of a damaging immigration policy?



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Wayward Son
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quote:
Maybe I'm misreading your sarcasm, but yeah, ISIS is killing plenty of Christians, and destroying churches as well. What was the joke again?
Sorry, Fenring. I didn't write that right. I meant something like "Mainly Christians," "Mostly Christians," or "Primarily Christians."

Because as horrible and enraging as the persecution of Christians has been by ISIS, it's really only a small fraction of the destruction that ISIS has done.

The group that has suffered the most, the people who have bled more than anyone else in the region--are Muslims. [Frown]

So when cherry muses about "Why should we be more compassionate to Muslims than other Muslims," I wonder what kind of "compassion" he's talking about.

Of course, the reason we should take these refugees in is because we are a Christian nation, although I wonder if cherry even remembers what that's supposed to mean. Love, compassion, sacrifice--he would throw those all away for a little safety. To prevent another Paris attack, happening here, which might raise our murder rate a whole percent for the year, if it's a slow year.

10,000 people that could be helped, so that he'll be perhaps 1 percent safer. That's compassion, all right. A real "love thy enemy" attitude.

Seriously, all these Republican governors, and Republican Presidential candidates who agree with them, are a bunch of cowards. They won't take a small risk of maybe letting in a bad apple or two to help 10,000 people in need. And then they talk about how God is leading them. They have no clue about who God is.

It really is cowardice trumping compassion, fear over love. But, then again, these refugees aren't one of us. They aren't like us. Their Muslims. They aren't people like us. So we don't have to love them or help them. They're just a bunch of those hated Samaritans who don't deserve our help. Not if it might hurt us. [Wink]

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Pete at Home
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Tend of thousands of people are dead today because France extended protection to KhomeinK when he needed help. The issue isn't about who "deserves" our help. That's a straw man. It's about who is safe to help.

Playing stupid and pretending this is about religious Christian hatred is a form of cowardice in itself. Confront the real issue and stop cowering behind straw men.

I and many others were as kids molested by people that parents took into the home to help them. Yes, love thy neighbor is the Christian rule, but you seem to have failed to read the small print. Do good to those who hate you, bless those that curse you, but when the enemy's hatred is active, when they 'despite fully use and persecute you, what form should your love take? Jesus says, "pray for them".

He doesn't say take dangerous people into your home where they can hurt your kids, Wayward.

Think about it.

[ November 18, 2015, 02:05 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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TomDavidson
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Which of these people in need of help hate us and want to destroy us, Pete? By your logic, we should never take someone into our home because potential rapists exist.
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AI Wessex
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Every year about 30,000 people die from gun violence in the US. Most of the victims and killers are US citizens, not immigrants or refugees. That's about 1 in 10,000. The current policy is to admit an additional 10,000 refugees from ISIS. If one of them shoots someone with a gun the arch-conseratives, antiBamans and non-Christian Christians on Ornery and running for elected office will scream that we need to stop letting any of them in. If Christie were in the house, he would say we should send back any orphans among the refugee victims that might result.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Which of these people in need of help hate us and want to destroy us, Pete? By your logic, we should never take someone into our home because potential rapists exist.

You have not engaged what I said, .I am NOT certain that you would recognizemy logic if it sat on your face.
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jasonr
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Which of these people in need of help hate us and want to destroy us, Pete? By your logic, we should never take someone into our home because potential rapisths exist.

Their kids will be ISIL's new generation of recruits.

The only difference between the majority of Muslims (as evidenced by poll after poll in every major Muslim country) on an issue like, say, blasphemy, is tbat the majority would expect blasphemers to be jailed or killed by the state, whereas ISIL chooses to do it themselves (see Charlie Habdo). Just because they're not waving around AK 47s and strapping bombs to their backs doesn't mean they're on our side.

And by the way ISIL didn't conquer half of Iraq and Syria with no significant local support. Bull****.

If you want to save refugees, save Yazidi Christians, victims of real genocide and no chance of blowing us up. But you don't wabt to discriminate. Fine, **** them all.

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Pyrtolin
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If we turn them away, they absolutely will be. If we take them in and give them what they need to prosper, they will not.

And ISIS did indeed have local support, especially in Iraq. It have the disenfranchised Sunnis that the Iraqi government kicked to the curb and excluded to pretty upon for support. Including the Awakening defensive forces that we created for them and established. The ones who were primarily responsible for the stability in Iraq that allowed us to leave. They had the Baathist bureaucrats and military leaders that we're effectively banned from employment in the careers they had devoted their lives to.

If the government had listened to our instructions and warnings and employed these people, rewarded them for their talents and participation instead of kicking them to the curb as soon as they could in our wake, ISIS would have had nothing to feed on. The bigotry of the Shia dominated government opened the door to ISIS and gave them the foothold they needed, as well as a huge well of military and administrative talent to draw on.

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TomDavidson
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quote:
Their kids will be ISIL's new generation of recruits.
And children born in West Virginia will be Confederate-loving school shooters? C'mon, don't be stupid.

quote:
The only difference between the majority of Muslims (as evidenced by poll after poll in every major Muslim country) on an issue like, say, blasphemy, is tbat the majority would expect blasphemers to be jailed or killed by the state, whereas ISIL chooses to do it themselves...
Are you familiar with the position of Orthodox Jews? I ask this because there are quite literally Orthodox Jews who believe that non-practicing Jews should be put to death but only after the Temple has been rebuilt and a correct leadership chain established. This is not a trivial distinction, mind you; this is what prevents someone like Lisa from hauling people in to die. Because it's not just the existence of the Temple; it's the whole sweeping change that she believes would come along with that re-establishment, without which she agrees that it would be unfair to kill apostates.

quote:
And by the way ISIL didn't conquer half of Iraq and Syria with no significant local support.
The "local support" you're talking about was largely political. You keep inventing this weird religious/racial motivation for ISIS, when in reality it's a fairly savvy political movement that has very little to do with religion at all.
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jasonr
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quote:
Are you familiar with the position of Orthodox Jews? I ask this because there are quite literally Orthodox Jews who believe that non-practicing Jews should be put to death but only after the Temple has been rebuilt and a correct leadership chain established. This is not a trivial distinction, mind you; this is what prevents someone like Lisa from hauling people in to die. Because it's not just the existence of the Temple; it's the whole sweeping change that she believes would come along with that re-establishment, without which she agrees suggestion that it would be unfair to kill apostates.
I have never heard this before. It is not consistent with any belief I have ever heard of concerning even the extreme Hasids or Lebovich. Which isn't to say that it doesn't exist somewhere.

But okay, I'll bite - if the majority of Jews had that particular belief I wouldn't blame you in the slightest if you were uncomfortable inviting 100,000 of them into your country (as Canada proposes to do). Similarly I'd have reservations about inviting 100,000 Jerry Falwell evangelicals in and so would the majority of liberals eager to throw open Canada's doors to Muslim immigrants.

But in this case we have people whose beliefs are as bad or worse than the the biggest bible thumping redneck, (as confirmed by every poll) who are fleeing from a conflagration of religious violence, whose breathren have vowed to deliver holy war to our shores, and who have a few billion dollars in their bank accounts to make it happen.

By the way on the subject of Paris - even if the attackers weren't refugees themselves (so far we don't know) with torrents of anonymous people washing up on Europe's shores daily you seriously think that ISIL isn't going to exploit that to get their people in undetected?

quote:
The "local support" you mentioned was largely political
Oh well that makes it all better. Millions upon millions of peaceful moderate Muslims won't support black flag waving psychotic pirates for religious reasons - that would be nutty. But if it's political, well then a totally different story. By the way have you checked ISIL's approval ratings in France? What do the polls say? Maybe they like IsIL's "politics"?
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kmbboots
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I expect the government to exercise appropriate due diligence, and yes, I realize that still leaves the risk that terrorists could exploit our good will and reach our shores. But we can never completely guarantee that they won't, whether we welcome the refugees or not. There are some things we cannot control. We can, however, guarantee that we live up to the ideals America allegedly represents. We can guarantee that we act like decent people.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
He doesn't say take dangerous people into your home where they can hurt your kids, Wayward.
Pete, will all 10,000 of those refugees be "dangerous people?" How did you determine that? What makes you think that?

Yes, perhaps a handful of dangerous people might try to sneak in with the rest. I never said we shouldn't vet them. I never said we should open our doors to everyone. And I never said we should not be vigilant, with refugees and with our own citizens.

But to deny safety to 10,000 innocent people because a handful might threaten us, that is cowardice. Of course we are taking a chance. But isn't the lives of the children we save (and you know that at least half will be children) worth taking a risk? Especially one so small that, even if another Paris attack happened here, it would be only a small blip on our murder rate.

Sorry, Pete, but I'm calling it as I see it. The main reason people don't want any Muslim refugees is pure cowardice. They are cowards who would rather see innocent women and children starve than to feel 1 percent more threatened than they do today. They should just hide under their beds where's it safe, instead of trying to lead this nation. They don't deserve the honor or the responsibility. [Mad]

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