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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » 26 US Republican Governors (and 1 Democratic Gov) give ISIS exactly what they want (Page 4)

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Author Topic: 26 US Republican Governors (and 1 Democratic Gov) give ISIS exactly what they want
Pyrtolin
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quote:
and second of all European cultures are probably more similar to each other than they are to an Islamic culture in the mid-East.
Careful there. An Islamic culture is what ISIS is bringing to Syria; it's not likely an accurate description of the culture of the refugees. In fact, if they were the kind of people who wanted to live in an islamic country, they probably wouldn't be trying to get so far away from them.

They fact that they're Muslims does not automatically mean that they want to live in an Islamic state.

quote:
But now things are different and there is such a thing as "American culture", perhaps in large part a result of streamlining through TV and film, and galvanizing from WWII and the Cold War.
To the degree it's true. It's something that we export. It's popular in many foreign countries, like Lebanon, and, as I understand it, Syria, before things fell apart there.

quote:
I also think it's probably fair to say that the Islamic religion isn't geared towards co-mingling with non-Muslims that well. A given Muslim certainly can do so, but the religion itself isn't oriented towards working towards common cause with infidels. Contrast with Christianity where at least its theoretical premise is precisely loving your enemies and having a caretaker's approach to those who are different from you.
Again you're crossing concepts. Muslims in general have absolutely no problem integrating into western cultures. They're all around us here and fully integrated. You seem to be implying that they're mostly Islamists like ISIS, but they're as representative of Modern Islam as the WBC is of Christianity. A part or aspect of it, but not even remotely representative.

[ November 18, 2015, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Pyrtolin ]

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Pete at Home
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Syria and Lebanon are cosmopolitan cultures... It's only the big money colonization by Iran and Said wahabbist proxies that has turned the area bloody not nutcase Islam. We're talking the land of Kalil Gibran. These are the folks where Christians and nylons got along best until Iran and then Daesh started pissing in the wind.

We don't want Hezbollah allied folks, or Sarah sympathises of course.

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Pete at Home
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"They fact that they're Muslims does not automatically mean that they want to live in an Islamic state"

Think harder. The 9-11 hijackers didn't want to live in an Islamic state either. But we're willing to die for one

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Fenring
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Pyr, remember that the Syrian refugee crisis only began as we knot it recently. It's true that Syrians may be secular to some degree but the Muslim population in Europe didn't only come from Syria. I already acknowledged that any given individual can be more or less religious, and more or less Islamist (which is not the same as Islamic, which is what I was discussing). I merely brought up the religion itself as part of the social reality in the mid-East. It's not a defining point, but I think a relevant one.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"They fact that they're Muslims does not automatically mean that they want to live in an Islamic state"

Think harder. The 9-11 hijackers didn't want to live in an Islamic state either. But we're willing to die for one

So? That doesn't mean that Muslim refugees fleeing Syria and wanting to get to the US would somehow be unable or unwilling to the US once here. They were cosmopolitan people there, they'd be just as cosmopolitan here, given the chance.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Pyr, remember that the Syrian refugee crisis only began as we knot it recently. It's true that Syrians may be secular to some degree but the Muslim population in Europe didn't only come from Syria. I already acknowledged that any given individual can be more or less religious, and more or less Islamist (which is not the same as Islamic, which is what I was discussing). I merely brought up the religion itself as part of the social reality in the mid-East. It's not a defining point, but I think a relevant one.

Not to integration, though. Muslims are just as capable of being cosmopolitan as anyone else, and have a long track record of it in places like Syria.
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kmbboots
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In Face of Terror, France’s Hollande Will Honor Commitment and Take in 30,000 Refugees


quote:
Addressing an assembly of mayors Wednesday, French President Francois Hollande reaffirmed his commitment to Syrian refugees in the wake of last weekend’s devastating terror attacks in Paris.

Hollande said the nation will honor its commitment to take in 30,000 refugees over the next two years, assuring the mayors, “France will remain a country of freedom.”


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NobleHunter
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quote:
I also think it's probably fair to say that the Islamic religion isn't geared towards co-mingling with non-Muslims that well. A given Muslim certainly can do so, but the religion itself isn't oriented towards working towards common cause with infidels. Contrast with Christianity where at least its theoretical premise is precisely loving your enemies and having a caretaker's approach to those who are different from you. This is a much more gregarious outlook, even to the point of excess where militant Christendom was reaching out to others with an iron fist instead of an open hand.
The historical record vehemently disagrees with you. For instance, Christianity no pre-Christian religions (except Judaism) survived in Europe, even those not absorbed or suppressed by the Romans. There was no openly practicing "heretics" for more than a thousand years after the establishment of Christendom.

Contrast with Islam, where substantial numbers of Christians and Jews survived. Islam is far less obsessed with orthodoxy and more willing to tolerate heterodox beliefs.

Christianity often saw adherents to other religions as dangerous subversives to be eliminated or expelled. Until the modern separation of church and state, Christianity was geared entirely towards the extermination of other religions rather than "co-mingling." Even now, there are major sects who would support the forced conversion or removal of non-Christians.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
"They fact that they're Muslims does not automatically mean that they want to live in an Islamic state"

Think harder. The 9-11 hijackers didn't want to live in an Islamic state either. But were willing to die for one

So? That doesn't mean that Muslim refugees fleeing Syria and wanting to get to the US would somehow be unable or unwilling to the US once here. They were cosmopolitan people there, they'd be just as cosmopolitan here, given the chance.
The 911 hijackers were cosmopolitan too.

I was responding to the foolish argument that Syrians are culturally incompatible. Otho, the fact is that some Syrian subcultures are lousy with potential sleepers.

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Pete at Home
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"Christianity often saw adherents to other religions as dangerous subversives to be eliminated or expelled. Until the modern separation of church and state, Christianity was geared entirely towards the extermination of other religions rather than "co-mingling." Even now, there are major sects who would support the forced conversion or removal of non-Christians."

You think you need to tell this to an ethnic Mormon?

I don't want to mass import violent Christendom imposes, either. Fortunately there isn't a global movement of them this century. If the kkk had an international following, would you not want their immigration blocked?

You will not convince me on a fairness argument that islamists who like DAESH or think Khomeini is a holy man, should be allowed into the country.

But for fairness sake I agree let's not single out Muslim's. How is this? Anyone entering the country must wipe their ads on a pic of Khomeini, James c Calhoun, Hitler and the Daesh flag.

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Pete at Home
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How many Christians and Jews survived on the Arabian peninsula, Our? Bear in mind they were major religions there until after Mohammed died and one of his followers claimed (I think falsely) that Mohammed had said with his dying breath to drive non-Muslims from Arabia.

[ November 18, 2015, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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jasonr
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quote:
In fact, if they were the kind of people who wanted to live in an islamic country, they probably wouldn't be trying to get so far away from them.
The idea that Muslims fleeing a warzone somehow are by definition adverse to living in an Islamic country is arrant nonsense.

I encourage you to have a look at polls taken in the Muslim world about topics like apostasy, blasphemy, gender equality and homosexuality. Then try to tell me how they have nothing in common with ISIL and desire to live like westerners and want to embrace our values.

As Fenring noted, it took a very long time for European immigrants to assimilate in America and they were largely fellow Christians. More recent waves of immigrants have been far more affluent, well educated and compatible than what the Europeans invited into theur borders, even with Muslim groups.

[ November 18, 2015, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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Pete at Home
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"The historical record vehemently disagrees with you. For instance, Christianity no pre-Christian religions (except Judaism) survived in Europe, even those not absorbed or suppressed by the Romans. There was no openly practicing "heretics" for more than a thousand years after the establishment of Christendom"

I brought this up before you did, although you speak falsely as history shows that El Cod's Spain, and Christian Constantinople had synagogues and mosques. Daesh is the Muslim equivalent of the worst excesses of the Spanish inquisition.

You want to fight the Spanish inquisition, then get yourself a time machine. Let's not contemplate the idiocy of affirmative atrocity.

If Catholics came from Spain in 1500 fleeing Isabella, and wanted to settle in one of the more pluralistic Muslim lands, I would advise the emir to turn then away or scrutinize them closely, as the Spanish Christians of this time are carriers of a plague of religious fanaticism.

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jasonr
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As an aside, even if you accept the premise that multiculturalism failed in Europe because Europeans were "unwelcoming" racist or whatnot. So what? Are you going to wave your magic wand and force people to abandon tbeir prejudices? Who cares why it failed - it failed. Any policy that can't account for the reality of people how they actually are (ugly prejudices and all) is doomed.
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NobleHunter
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I was addressing solely the idea that Christianity is better suited to co-exist with other religions. I find it a particularly present-centric view of global religions.

Those counter-examples don't really fly since the mosques in El Cid's Spain were transitory (and I excepted the Jews). As soon as the Christian monarchs felt strong enough they did away with the pesky stragglers. Likewise, with the pagan temples in Christian Rome. That Christianity tolerated other religions in certain times and places does not outweigh the fact that it rarely chose to do so. I'd be surprised if there were any examples of non-Christian religions surviving the entirety of Christian rule uninterrupted. Contrast with the Coptics, for example, or the Jews of Jerusalem (though I don't know how the Empire would have treated them if it had kept control of the region).

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jasonr
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Noble while your commentary about historical Christianity is interesting you'll agree it's basically irrelevent sans time machine.
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NobleHunter
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Whoops. I forgot to close the historical pedant tag.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by NobleHunter:
I was addressing solely the idea that Christianity is better suited to co-exist with other religions. I find it a particularly present-centric view of global religions.

Those counter-examples don't really fly since the mosques in El Cid's Spain were transitory (and I excepted the Jews). As soon as the Christian monarchs felt strong enough they did away with the pesky stragglers. Likewise, with the pagan temples in Christian Rome. That Christianity tolerated other religions in certain times and places does not outweigh the fact that it rarely chose to do so. I'd be surprised if there were any examples of non-Christian religions surviving the entirety of Christian rule uninterrupted. Contrast with the Coptics, for example, or the Jews of Jerusalem (though I don't know how the Empire would have treated them if it had kept control of the region).

You haven't dressed whether Christianity IS more suited for pluralism. I agree that in ad 1400 Islam was more suited to pluralism. And now in the 21at century, Christianity is.

The only pluralistic society which is mostly Atheistic, Norway, showed some promise but the atheist Breivik gives one some pause.

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Pete at Home
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"I was addressing solely the idea that Christianity is better suited to co-exist with other religions. I find it a particularly present-centric view of global religions"

Since the operative word is IS, the present tense form of the verb to be, I don't understand your trepidation at taking a present-centric view of the bloody present. I acknowledge d before you did that 1400 as Christendom was awash with the sane sort of vitamins misanthropic disease that presently infects the Unman.

It seems to me that those that wish to take a past-centric view of the present are not helping those refugees.

Can we agree to take in Kurdish Muslim's, Yazidis, Syrian Christians, Syrian Jew's among the refugees, since we know those aren't sleepers? Then think about the others.

[ November 18, 2015, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
Why does it strain the leftist brain that we can focus on the groups currently committing mass murder enslavement and systematic rape?
Because if you were sincere about doing that, since 9/11 your focus would have been on Christians in the Congo. So the group is not even extremist Islam, it is extremists who murder, enslave, and rape civilian populations.
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Pete at Home
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Glad to see that some Muslims grasp that this is not a time to stay silent:
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34852817

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Pete at Home
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typical leftist demagoguery: throw out some news claim that no one has heard of, then imply that anyone who cares about anything else is a bigot.

quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
quote:
Why does it strain the leftist brain that we can focus on the groups currently committing mass murder enslavement and systematic rape?
Because if you were sincere about doing that, since 9/11 your focus would have been on Christians in the Congo. So the group is not even extremist Islam, it is extremists who murder, enslave, and rape civilian populations.
My parents were serving missions in the Congo and I assure you they never enslaved or raped anyone. I don't know what you are talking about, and since you didn't cite a link and I have seen nothing on the news when I scrutinize for brides of that area, I can only assume you are grasping at straws.

Tell me Greg, has anyone ever been convinced by this sanctimonious obfuscatory guilt trip game?

What the hell, man. I used to respect you, but that was just despicable.

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Pete at Home
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Where do you get this supposed news, Greg? Are you on Book Harm's email list or something? Because last I checked, which is often, the only slavers in that area are Muslim.

Sure you haven't confused with Uganda or the Ivory Coast? Do all African countries look the same to you? I tend to remember the ones where my parents are serving as missionaries.

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Pete at Home
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Nevertheless I will restate to clarify what I thought was too bloody obvious to need saying:
Why does it strain the leftist brain that we can focus on the groups who are not only currently committing mass murder enslavement and systematic rape, BUT HAVE DECLARED WAR ON AMERICA AND MANIFEST INTENT TO DO US HARM.

This isn't rocket science, folks.
Please stop the dishonest straw man reconstructions about "deserving." Not taking in our sworn enemies during war time is a no brainer. And I guess most here know that or y'all would not have made this an exercise in obfuscation.

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Greg Davidson
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Pete, I did not mean to say that any Christian who was in the Congo committed acts of murder, rape or enslavement - merely that those evil actions have by committed by men in the Congo in staggering numbers since 9/11. If we want to focus on evil in our time, focusing primarily on Muslim extremists is a distorted view that ignores a very large number of evil acts committed by non-Muslims.

quote:
The Second Congo War (also known as the Great War of Africa or the Great African War, and sometimes referred to as the African World War) began in August 1998, little more than a year after the First Congo War (and involving some of the same issues), in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and officially ended in July 2003 when the Transitional Government of the Democratic Republic of the Congo took power. However, hostilities have continued since then in the ongoing Lord's Resistance Army insurgency, and the Kivu and Ituri conflicts.

The deadliest war since modern African history, it has directly involved nine African countries, as well as approximately 20 separate armed groups. By 2008, the war and its aftermath had caused 5.4 million deaths, principally through disease and starvation,[7] making the Second Congo War the deadliest conflict worldwide since World War II.[8] Millions more were displaced from their homes or sought asylum in neighbouring countries.[9]

As the article notes, the majority of deaths were from diseases and starvation as millions were driven from their homes into the jungle and left to starve, still leaving hundreds of thousands to be directly murdered.

And as for rape

quote:
During the first and second conflicts in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC), all armed parties to the conflict carried out a policy of genocidal rape, with the primary purpose being the total destruction of communities and families.[1] Such was the violence directed at and carried out towards women that Human Rights Watch (HRW) described it as "a war within a war".[2][3] HRW has reported that as of March 2013, civil conflict had reignited when the militia, March 23 Movement (M23), resumed hostilities following a ceasefire.
Girls from the age of five to women aged eighty have been assaulted and sexually mutilated. Others were raped and their families forced to watch.[a] By 2008 the United Nations (UN) had estimated that up to 200,000 females had suffered from some form of sexual violence.[5] The brutality of the rapes have caused long term health, social, familial, and psychological problems. There have been reports of babies aged one being raped, as well as women in their nineties. Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) reported that over 50 per cent of survivors believed that the use of rape was a deliberate tactic used for the extermination of the Congolese people.

I am not quite as sure about slavery, but here's a link to a site claiming the existance of slavery therte in modern times web page

[ November 19, 2015, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Greg Davidson
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quote:
HAVE DECLARED WAR ON AMERICA AND MANIFEST INTENT TO DO US HARM
I am not sure that declarations of war are what they used to be, but could you summarize all of the countries that ISIS has "declared war on"?

[ November 19, 2015, 12:09 AM: Message edited by: Greg Davidson ]

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Pete at Home
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How does one summarize a country?

Sounds like make work. Not a good faith discussion.

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Pete at Home
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Thanks. I had followed the horrors of the Lord's Resistance Army, which is why I mentioned Uganda. I wasn't aware of their activity in the Congo.

I have spoken against the LRA on former threads so your insinuation that I don't care about that issue is as foolish as it was vile.

To my knowledge the LRA has not committed violence outside its region, has no plans to go global, and has not vowed to strike targets in the USA. So your argument is an incredibly callous game of hide the ball.

I am trying to persuade Americans who are reasonably fearful of bringing in ISIS sympathetic Islamists, that we can safely take in hundreds of people without risk. Why do you have a problem with my making an argument that could give hundreds of innocent refugees a safe haven?

When people are afraid to do good, an intelligent person of conscience attempts to resolve their fears. I just don't know what you are anymore.

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Pete at Home
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Your slavery web page does not mention Christian groups being involved. You realize a substantial part of the population there is Muslim, right?

My parents have seen stoning. A man and woman stoned to death by a mob. It's considered bad manners to ask what the offense is. One is supposed to assume the stones have good cause. Kind of like some lefties say we need to do with protests, strikes and other mob acts

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Pete at Home
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Scott Card has also been calling for UN action in that portion the world, Rwanda, Uganda, etc. But going into the Congo would mean facing Book Haram as well, and some lefties seem hell bent on not obstructing ISIS affiliates in any way, oh, islamophobia
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Fenring
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
You haven't dressed whether Christianity IS more suited for pluralism. I agree that in ad 1400 Islam was more suited to pluralism. And now in the 21at century, Christianity is.

This is basically my response as well. I don't really see what Christianity from 600 years ago has to do with Christianity versus Islam of today. I think we've already covered on this board that the religion isn't the book, it's the book plus the culture/understanding. That being said, if we take the books alone I think the Jesus portion of the NT is probably the most gregarious friendly book around. The fact is that for somewhat predictable reasons Christianity was not able to get its s**t together for many centuries and actually be Christian. Perhaps we can make a case that Muslims were much better at being Muslim historically than Christians were at being Christian. I think there might be something to that, but it doesn't speak to who would integrate better circa 1850-present.

That being said the only reason I brought this up at all was because Al ascribed to jasonr's position the fact that Muslim immigrants were unwelcome purely because they were unwelcome, and I thought that was a bad reading and an unfair charge. But as jasonr pointed out - at this juncture, blame aside, it may not matter. Maybe going forward Europe can do better at integrating Muslims, but I don't think this is achievable in less than two generations; certainly not in time to have any relevance to the ISIS threat.

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AI Wessex
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Scott Card has also been calling for UN action in that portion the world, Rwanda, Uganda, etc. But going into the Congo would mean facing Book Haram as well, and some lefties seem hell bent on not obstructing ISIS affiliates in any way, oh, islamophobia

I see, you want to blame "lefties" rather than apportion blame to any other group, like Christians, conservatives, or any other scapegoat you can think of. That *is* how the political game works, so thanks for playing.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:

I was responding to the foolish argument that Syrians are culturally incompatible.

Okay, they we're in agreement? The notion that we should reject them because they wouldn't be able to integrate into a pluralistic society, especially given that they came from a pluralistic society before things fell apart for them, is nonsense, yes? The fact that they choose to worship in a Mosque rather than a Church is largely irrelevant to whether or not they can integrate, and certainly doesn't justify slandering them with accusations that they want to subvert our political system on religious grounds.
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Pete at Home
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"Okay, they we're in agreement? The notion that we should reject them because they wouldn't be able to integrate into a pluralistic society, especially given that they came from a pluralistic society before things fell apart for them, is nonsense, yes?"

Not nonsense, simply false. A conclusion Based on misinformation. Misinformation is corrected with accurate information, fear with reassurance. Ridicule is appropriate only when someone seems to be failing to try, or intentionally obtuse.

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kmbboots
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Syrian refugees in America: separating fact from fiction in the debate
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jasonr
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Kmboots from your article:

quote:
But such a fear is misguided because the process of relocating refugees to America is very different from the way that refugees currently arrive in Europe. Syrians flown to the US will be the most heavily vetted group of people currently allowed into the US, according to the State Department.
Okay so refugees coming to America will be "very different" from those coming to Europe insofar as they "will be heavily vetted"

In that statement, do I detect a grudging nod to the fact that Syrian refugees coming to Europe are *not* vetted?

Do members of this board support or oppose admission of more refugees into Europe? If yes, do you admit that the security risk in that process must be substantial, or do you dismiss that risk as well?

My thesis here is that genuine threats are being dismissed or obsfuscated to avoid any conclusion that lessens or eliminates aid to refugees. It is not that the risks are necessarily huge or unsupportable - but they are being hand waved away in order to shut down any debate that leads to any conclusion but the one refugee proponents desire.

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kmbboots
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jasonr, I think you are missing the point. Stating that the terror inspired by unreasonable inflating and misunderstanding the risk is not the same as dismissing it.

Nothing in life is without some risk. Some things are worth doing anyway. Helping these people is one of those things.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
In that statement, do I detect a grudging nod to the fact that Syrian refugees coming to Europe are *not* vetted?
They're not well vetted because Europe to to unwilling to take enough in to allow the to be vetted. So instead of waiting to be vetted by the regular admissions process they come in other ways and have to be processed after the fact instead.

quote:
Do members of this board support or oppose admission of more refugees into Europe? If yes, do you admit that the security risk in that process must be substantial, or do you dismiss that risk as well?
Yes, Europe should be formally taking many more in, just as the US should be, so that they can be well vetted and reduce the risks, instead of the current model, which has the refugees pushing their way in out of desperation resulting in many fewer being properly processed and vetted.
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Fenring
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Really, Germany has thus far been "unwilling to take enough in to allow them to be vetted?" Interesting. Here's what Germany had to say about this as recently as September:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/08/germany-500000-refugees-a-year-clashes-lesbos

500,000 a year. Tell me, if that's not enough then how many should they take?

It's a shame that this attack has changed Germany's mind and that they've chosen to close their doors for the time being. But that aside I don't see how that gives anyone the right to say that Europe isn't doing their fair share when America, England, Israel, Saudi Arabia and others have been unwilling to do much at all.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
Syrian refugees in America: separating fact from fiction in the debate

Bookmarked for reading when I get to computer.
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