Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » "I was held hostage by Isis. They fear our unity more than our airstrikes"

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: "I was held hostage by Isis. They fear our unity more than our airstrikes"
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here are some personal experience from a French captive of ISIS for 10 months

quote:
They present themselves to the public as superheroes, but away from the camera are a bit pathetic in many ways: street kids drunk on ideology and power. In France we have a saying – stupid and evil. I found them more stupid than evil. That is not to understate the murderous potential of stupidity.
quote:
It struck me forcefully how technologically connected they are; they follow the news obsessively, but everything they see goes through their own filter. They are totally indoctrinated, clinging to all manner of conspiracy theories, never acknowledging the contradictions.
quote:
With their news and social media interest, they will be noting everything that follows their murderous assault on Paris, and my guess is that right now the chant among them will be “We are winning”. They will be heartened by every sign of overreaction, of division, of fear, of racism, of xenophobia; they will be drawn to any examples of ugliness on social media.

Central to their world view is the belief that communities cannot live together with Muslims, and every day their antennae will be tuned towards finding supporting evidence. The pictures from Germany of people welcoming migrants will have been particularly troubling to them. Cohesion, tolerance – it is not what they want to see.

quote:
While we are trying to destroy Isis, what of the 500,000 civilians still living and trapped in Raqqa? What of their safety? What of the very real prospect that by failing to think this through, we turn many of them into extremists?
link
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And yet we could commit to look at them, reserving the right to toss out Islamist's. Increasing for the west to coddle another Khomeini. Anyone who preaches need to enforce Islamist dress and other unreasonable rules by force and violence should not receive safe harbor in the west.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All we need is love.
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maybe if instead of bombing them if we just ignore them they'll go away. Bullies just want attention after all.
Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://ahtribune.com/religion/161-isis-the-brainchild-of-wahhabism.html

This article discusses the possibility that ISIS is attracting fighters who are either not fanatical Muslims or possibly not even Muslims at all.

quote:
A significant proportion of those convicted of terrorism offences since the 9/11 attacks have been non-observant, or are self-taught. Misguided or disguised ISIS militants are certainly not looking for religious enlightenment; rather they have been sold to a violence which speaks to their own pain and sense of loss.

Two wannabe jihadists who set out from Birmingham for Syria in May 2014 had ordered Islam for Dummies from Amazon. ISIS militants are no Muslim devouts, only sociopathic begots.

This corroborates my person theory that ISIS is not a religious fundamentalist group, but more to the point, it suggests that the people involved have power-oriented (as opposed to ideological) ambitions and are probably uninterested in the morale and beliefs of Western nations. Unlike the claims made about Al Qaeda in the early 2000's, ISIS seems to have never said anything significant about Western culture or positions. They have a military goal in the mid-East and their objective is to attract fighters to achieve that goal. I doubt they care much what happens to the refugees either way.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From its inception, Islam has been more of a of a movement than a religion. Even the most devout Muslims will admit Islam is more than a religion.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is no guarantee that the author's perspective is accurate. However, I consider it at least as relevant as speculation on the character of a group of enemies based on an English-language-based interpretation of Islamic scripture by non-experts and ascribing the results of that assessment to the motivation of that group of enemies.
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, there's a margin of error in interpreting a text. But that's not as attenuated as guessing at another's secret motives.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete, you are right that guessing motives is highly uncertain. Perhaps it would be better if I phrased it by saying that this gives a better sense of who we are actually dealing with, in terms of who literally is committing the beheading actions that are part of the effort of the terrorists.
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Why are you guessing? They tell you precisely what their motivation is and the ultimate goals. They say it repeatedly. It's beyond bizarre to be guessing and completely nonsensical. That must mean you have other motives to push such a charade, what is it?
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rafi, do you believe everything that everyone says just because they say it? That would be a very naive way to view the world.

If you read the article, the perception of the guy who was their prisoner for 10 months was that they were more like a bunch of whack jobs who were over their heads and in no position to pose a significant threat to Western civilization.

Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Having posted that article, I'd ask you the exact same question. I don't know what's more naive, that article or your defending it.
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think I agree with the assessment made in the article, but I do agree with Greg that believing what political or radical people say about their motives is ridiculous. Of all things, you're going to assign ISIS spokesmen the virtue of honesty? That would be amazing, since we don't even attribute it to our own politicians.

We can look at facts to try to determine motive and intention, but a person's word on the matter is just that - words. If someone you know, on the other hand, who's built up a reputation for honor says something there is some logic to giving their statements the benefit of the doubt. But radical insurgents? Not so much.

Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
AI Wessex
Member
Member # 6653

 - posted      Profile for AI Wessex   Email AI Wessex   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Of all things, you're going to assign ISIS spokesmen the virtue of honesty?
What spokesmen?
Posts: 8393 | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
I don't think I agree with the assessment made in the article, but I do agree with Greg that believing what political or radical people say about their motives is ridiculous. Of all things, you're going to assign ISIS spokesmen the virtue of honesty? That would be amazing, since we don't even attribute it to our own politicians.

We can look at facts to try to determine motive and intention, but a person's word on the matter is just that - words. If someone you know, on the other hand, who's built up a reputation for honor says something there is some logic to giving their statements the benefit of the doubt. But radical insurgents? Not so much.

So when they tell us what they want and then systematically pursue those goals, it would be "ridiculous" to believe that's what they really want. Far better to believe the analysis of some talking head on MSNBC or some article in a newspaper? Seriously?

They've been clear, they're doing it and they're committed to keep doing it. You don't believe they're doing it?

Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What do you mean by "systematically"? The article with first-hand experience does not describe a work operating systematically, it shows some deluded people drunk on power and ideology. They pose a danger, but not a global takeover level of danger
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
Pete, you are right that guessing motives is highly uncertain. Perhaps it would be better if I phrased it by saying that this gives a better sense of who we are actually dealing with, in terms of who literally is committing the beheading actions that are part of the effort of the terrorists.

I need to look at the original article. What's posted here is unsupported and conclusory, but those choices of snippets could be the poster's fault rather than the original writer.

I have always despised authority worship but particularly have come to hate it after practicing law, which has strayed from its philosophic origins to a "my expert has a bigger dick than your expert" system. I prefer a dialogue where we can weigh and discuss the facts together.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Greg, if this really is the heart of ISIS, then how do you explain their recruiting drive? Eichmann, the dude who oversaw the death camps project, wasn't actually antisemitic, but just a very organized dude who focused on obeying orders, doesn't change the fact that Naziiam was in inception and execution an antisemitic regime.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
What do you mean by "systematically"? The article with first-hand experience does not describe a work operating systematically, it shows some deluded people drunk on power and ideology. They pose a danger, but not a global takeover level of danger

I mean that they pursue their goals. Only about a year ago they were just the JV and beneath notice. Let's not keep floating that canard.
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Agreed that ISIS does not menace the entire Globe. Just most of contiguous Europe, central Asia, and Northern Africa. Just the places already filled with Isis fifth column
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's tautological to say that ISIS pursues its goals. But what are those? They've been doing something for the last two years, but the claim that this something is "spreading fanatic Islam" for ideological purposes is the point that I think is incorrect.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Islam literally means submission. To the *Islamist* (a term coined by moderate Muslims to denote the use of religious Islam to enforce a political Islam) any means that makes the world grovel to them is "Islam". The Koran explicitly prohibits rectal sex as "haram" but ask any non-Muslim ex-wife of a Muslim man what act he was always hell bent on engaging in? Buggery demonstrates total submission, therefore is "like a prayer" to the fundamentalist Muslim mind.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Back to fenring's question, what the Islamist bastards are doing if following the Koranic recipe, with a few modern innovations, to establishing a global grand Caliphate. Which means forcing the submission (Islam) of all other nations, by any means.


The Koranic recipe allows them to make peace with other nations for no longer than 10 years at a time. Not a day longer. Given the political cycles of Western nations, and the traditional obtuse refusal of Westerners to read their enemy's Mean Kampf literally, that means Contiguous western Europe is cooked, except maybe Switzerland and Gibraltar.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pete

"Agreed that ISIS does not menace the entire Globe. Just most of contiguous Europe, central Asia, and Northern Africa. Just the places already filled with Isis fifth column."

That actually bears repeating and is very interesting.

What do all most if not all of the countries ISIS is not menacing have in common?

And what do most if not all of the countries that ISIS is menacing have in common?

For instance, ISIS is not menacing Japan or Taiwan or South Africa or Argentina or Mexico.

But they as you say they are menacing America and Europe and North Africa.

I wonder what the common denominators are.

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, China has already been hit by ISIS style Muslim terrorism. And ISIS would no doubt stir up some of that Muslim population. But ultimately China won't taken by ISIS, and neither will the USA.

China won't be taken because it will sooner commit genocide than submit. It might even use nukes internally to quell an uprising.

The USA won't fall to ISIS because of natural geography. Plus Obama has started us off on a course to hand America over to the Cartels a full generation before ISIS could gain a foothold.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
cherrypoptart
Member
Member # 3942

 - posted      Profile for cherrypoptart     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What I was thinking is that the countries having the most problems with Muslims are, intuitively enough, the countries with the most Muslims.

China has them but Taiwan doesn't. China is having problems but Taiwan hasn't had any at all. France has problems. South Africa doesn't. Well it has lots of problems but none of them have to do with Muslim terrorism. Of course the area of the world with the most problems is the area of the world with the most Muslims, namely the Middle East.

Japan has some Muslims but they haven't had that much trouble out of them because there are so few. Of course there was that Japanese professor who was an interpreter for the Satanic Verses and was murdered after getting his death fatwa. But certainly they've had fewer problems than other countries with greater Muslim populations.

So small Muslim population means few problems. Medium pop means more problems and large pop means lots of problems. And no pop means no problems. Apparently anyway. Maybe it's just a coincidence.

It's certainly something to consider though before we let in millions more. Unless we haven't had our fill of things like 9-11, Fort Hood, Boston Marathon, recruiter offices, and other incidents as it is and we would like some more please.

Posts: 7675 | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rafi
Member
Member # 6930

 - posted      Profile for Rafi   Email Rafi       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That many coincidence is what we used to call a "pattern". Given that about 20% of Syrian refugees see America as the greatest threat, what should we expect, will that pattern continue or magically stop?
Posts: 793 | Registered: Jul 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Source on the 20% Raf?
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:

It's certainly something to consider though before we let in millions more. Unless we haven't had our fill of things like 9-11, Fort Hood, Boston Marathon, recruiter offices, and other incidents as it is and we would like some more please.

What do we do when we have had our fill of things like Sandy Hook, Oklahoma City, Charleston, Colorado Springs, Roseburg, Omaha, NIU, Aurora, Kileen...?

What I was thinking is that the countries having the most problems with American men are, intuitively enough, the countries with the most American men.

Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not to mention the effect of American immigration on a country's obesity stats. Americans are over twice as prone to obesity as male Muslim immigrants in Sweden are to rape.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fenring
Member
Member # 6953

 - posted      Profile for Fenring   Email Fenring       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Source on the 20% Raf?

Forget about Syrian refugees, I've seen stats from non-refugee populations in various countries putting the U.S. towards the top of their list of threats in the world. In terms of threat potential there's obviously no debate, but I mean actual threats.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Oct 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Greg Davidson
Member
Member # 3377

 - posted      Profile for Greg Davidson   Email Greg Davidson   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
The Koranic recipe allows them to make peace with other nations for no longer than 10 years at a time. Not a day longer. Given the political cycles of Western nations, and the traditional obtuse refusal of Westerners to read their enemy's Mean Kampf literally, that means Contiguous western Europe is cooked, except maybe Switzerland and Gibraltar.
If peace with other nations was actually limited to 10 years, why doesn't that disturbing trend show up in the 1400 years of evidence that Muslim nations are not more likely to go to war with their neighbors than non-Muslim nations?
Posts: 4178 | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well given how we screwed up Iraq and created the holes in which DAESH and AQ were created, I can see a reasonable person seeing the US as a huge global threat. Need to ask more questions to determine whether they are a threat to us. Or hate us. Or if they are Fundy-holes that mutilate their daughters, cultural rapists, etc
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Davidson:
quote:
The Koranic recipe allows them to make peace with other nations for no longer than 10 years at a time. Not a day longer. Given the political cycles of Western nations, and the traditional obtuse refusal of Westerners to read their enemy's Mean Kampf literally, that means Contiguous western Europe is cooked, except maybe Switzerland and Gibraltar.
If peace with other nations was actually limited to 10 years, why doesn't that disturbing trend show up in the 1400 years of evidence that Muslim nations are not more likely to go to war with their neighbors than non-Muslim nations?
The ten year limitation only applies to a Grand Caliphate, Greg.

It's like those rules in Judaism that only apply in Israel during a time your Temple is built and operational. Islam has a huge swath of instructions that only come into play when Allah has designated a Califf, one who replaces Mohammed on earth.

You really did not know this?

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kmbboots
Member
Member # 6161

 - posted      Profile for kmbboots   Email kmbboots   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by cherrypoptart:

It's certainly something to consider though before we let in millions more. Unless we haven't had our fill of things like 9-11, Fort Hood, Boston Marathon, recruiter offices, and other incidents as it is and we would like some more please.

What do we do when we have had our fill of things like Sandy Hook, Oklahoma City, Charleston, Colorado Springs, Roseburg, Omaha, NIU, Aurora, Kileen...?

What I was thinking is that the countries having the most problems with American men are, intuitively enough, the countries with the most American men.

Or San Bernardino.
Posts: 2635 | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1