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Author Topic: you are a sly one, Mr President Barack Hussein Obama
Pete at Home
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I'm always dispelling the Faux News nonsense my sons bring back from their public school, so when thing three told me that Obama had cancelled Christmas in DC, I assured him this was some other bit of hyperbabble.

I saw a lot of stuff from Fox, of course, which I try not look at, and saw this from a moderately conservative site what I found:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/reliable-source/wp/2015/11/30/after-33-years-christmas-in-washington-has-been-be-canceled/

Is Obama trying to distance himself from Christianity, even the sort of pop Christianity that one expects from a celebrity-flitted Christmas pageant? I always thought that asking his family to stop calling him Barry was just an 18 year old freshman PC thing to do, like going Vegan. I wore a black armband and wrote a letter to the editor of my University newspaper the daily Universe [Smile] asking others to join me. [Smile] . I reckoned the anti Barry stuff was just undergraduate enthusiasm. While I disliked his pastor's politics, I have to admit he was hard core Christian, though maybe a too old testament for my taste, that whole God damn this that's in the Bible" is what I call leaning too heavily on the old testament; I get Jesus more our of the gospels and 1 Corinthians 13 than out of Leviticus and the acid trip that Revelations turns into after Chapter 4.

What bothers me more than anything is the total silence from the left wing and liberal press on the supposed assault on Christmas alleged by Faux News and the rightiwad blogosphere, which I won't link to on principle, (and also to frustrate Al Wessex who quotes cites refers to and links to Faux news more than anyone else on Ornery.). Just this morning I had to correct Al's fundamentalist drivel talk about Obama being "the AntiChrist" [sic] and "a Muslim"

So help me out here, dear liberal and/or leftist friends. What can I tell my impressionable 13 year old about these claims that Obama has "cancelled" some public Christmas event our of fear that Christmas "offends" non-Christian?

(I have known Muslims and Atheists to celebrate the nonreligious aspects of Christmas. Dawkins boasts that he celebrates Christmas as merrily as anyone).

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Fenring
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I like the thread title...
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scifibum
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What in that article suggests that Obama had anything to do with the decision?
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AI Wessex
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It's pretty clear that TNT dropped it because of poor ratings, but go ahead and blame Obama. It's even his fault when people don't watch TV shows you and FOX approve of. I guess this is one turkey he wasn't asked to pardon.
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D.W.
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Just tell him that show couldn't compete with the marathon running of A Christmas Story.
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Wayward Son
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Obviously, it wasn't Obama who cancelled the show. It was driven out by Christians who thought it wasn't Christian enough.

Instead, they'll be watching CMA Country Christmas, hosted by real Christians. [Wink]

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
Just tell him that show couldn't compete with the marathon running of A Christmas Story.

Ah, so the real war started when copyright claims were sorted out for "It's a Wonderful Life", and it stopped running over and over on all channels?
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Pete at Home
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I was actually asking about another supposed Christmas cancellation but it's only sourced in the rightwad blogosphere. Sigh.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I was actually asking about another supposed Christmas cancellation but it's only sourced in the rightwad blogosphere. Sigh.

The only other reports of "cancellation" I can find come from outrage that Obama is respecting the other couple of dozen holidays that happen around this time of year instead of pretending that everyone else should put equal weight on christmas at the expense of their own traditions.
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Pete at Home
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Do you have a source on that that I can show my kids? Don't have a prob respecting existing traditions which significant 1%+ already observe. As opposed to promoting traditions that were specifically created in our time to supplant other traditions
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Pete at Home
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Thanks for the info on it's a wonderful life. Did not know that
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Do you have a source on that that I can show my kids?


Perhaps this might touch on what hey were talking about?
http://www.snopes.com/obama-va-merry-christmas-tree-ban/

quote:
Don't have a prob respecting existing traditions which significant 1%+ already observe. As opposed to promoting traditions that were specifically created in our time to supplant other traditions
Traditions have to start somewhere. If its what other people want to do, that's their business, so long as it fulfills the basic purpose of giving them something to celebrate that they feel they can identify with.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Thanks for the info on it's a wonderful life. Did not know that

Decent summary here:
http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/03/13/the-improbable-copyright-case-of-its-a-wonderful-life-video/

BAsically, they forgot to renew the copyright on the move, and it went public domain, until the owners of the original story's copyright managed to win a case saying that since they owned the story itself, they had the right to control the derivative work as well, effectively putting it back under copyright many years later, with some power to try to collect royalties on all of the showings in the intervening time.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
Do you have a source on that that I can show my kids?


Perhaps this might touch on what hey were talking about?
http://www.snopes.com/obama-va-merry-christmas-tree-ban

Ah! Snopes! I should have thought of that. Thank you.


"
quote:
Don't have a prob respecting existing traditions which significant 1%+ already observe. As opposed to promoting traditions that were specifically created in our time to supplant other traditions
Traditions have to start somewhere. If its what other people want to do, that's their business, so long as it fulfills the basic purpose of giving them something to celebrate that they feel they can identify with. "

You sure you want to go there, Pyr? Orange robes through Catholic Neighborhoods? Everyone carrying around a bacon cheeseburger during Ramadan? Supplanting other people's holy days and places is a really ugly impulse. The spirit of pogrom shouldn't receive government support.

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D.W.
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There's some profound or funny comment to be made regarding paganism and Christianity here... but I'm lacking the proper holiday spirit to go to the effort.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
There's some profound or funny comment to be made regarding paganism and Christianity here... but I'm lacking the proper holiday spirit to go to the effort.

Yule get here, man, Yule.

Maybe a video of Mithras, trying to light a fire. He looks up and sees a giant Christmas display, then a single tear rolls down his cheek as the sun sets.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
There's some profound or funny comment to be made regarding paganism and Christianity here... but I'm lacking the proper holiday spirit to go to the effort.

I am quite aware of that, but it's fifty generations ago. Giving Yule back toothed pagans, giving America back to its "natives" who no doubt took it from someone else, and taking the Jerusalem Mosque back for the Jews, Constantinople back for the Christians before they hand it back as Byzantine to nonexistent pagan Greeks, would do injustice to innocents living today. Does not mean that we need to tolerate, let alone publicly subsidize new aggressions.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Everyone carrying around a bacon cheeseburger during Ramadan?
I do know someone who finally made the point that she wasn't a good fit for her Jewish religious education classes by ordering a bacon cheeseburger to be delivered to her in the middle of class. Not really related, but an amusing anecdote this paralleled.

I think you're confusing people making an effort to thumb their nose at traditions just for the sake of doing so, and people actually creating something new to celebrate on their own terms.

Establishing a new tradition, even if it happens to cut into screen time of others is normal cultural development. Acting spitefully toward others because you want to insult them is poor behavior, but not really what's under the umbrella of the more recent traditions or revivals.

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D.W.
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Instead I shall resort to a Fallout joke as the game has consumed the bulk of my entertainment time as of late.

War, war never changes.
Especially the war on traditional celebration of local religious customs.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Originally posted by D.W.:
There's some profound or funny comment to be made regarding paganism and Christianity here... but I'm lacking the proper holiday spirit to go to the effort.

Yule get here, man, Yule.

Maybe a video of Mithras, trying to light a fire. He looks up and sees a giant Christmas display, then a single tear rolls down his cheek as the sun sets.

I'd happily waive the 1% rule if you can find me a genuine worshipper of Mithras. But trying to take Yule back now is like telling Muslims they have to give up the dome of the Rock. Christians today do not celebrate Christmas with the intent of supplanting Yule.

Furthermore, Yule was to some extent merged into Christmas ... the relation there was not as suppressive as it was when Christians built cathedrals over old Roman places. Actual worshippers and priests of the old ways were among those that wove Yuletide and Christmas together. That's part of what we know as the Christmas spirit. Peace on earth, good will to men ... That's why Christan's put up so little fight to the secularization of the holiday.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
But trying to take Yule back now is like telling Muslims they have to give up the dome of the Rock. Christians today do not celebrate Christmas with the intent of supplanting Yule.
So? What does that have to do with the people that want to celebrate Yule. They're doing so doesn't take anything away from Christians, it just gives more people something to celebrate and identify with.

quote:
Actual worshippers and priests of the old ways were among those that wove Yuletide and Christmas together.
Sure, that's what happens when you kill off the ones that can't tell which way the wind is blowing.

quote:
That's why Christan's put up so little fight to the secularization of the holiday.
No, the fact that the way the holiday was celebrated for most of history was very raucous and not a little abusive is why there wasn't "much of a fight" it was only in the wake of commercialization that a serious effort to retcon it into being a serious and sacred event.

It still has little relevance to what other people choose to celebrate today if they want to.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
Everyone carrying around a bacon cheeseburger during Ramadan?
I do know someone who finally made the point that she wasn't a good fit for her Jewish religious education classes by ordering a bacon cheeseburger to be delivered to her in the middle of class. Not really related, but an amusing anecdote this paralleled.

I think you're confusing people making an effort to thumb their nose at traditions just for the sake of doing so, and people actually creating something new to celebrate on their own terms.

Establishing a new tradition, even if it happens to cut into screen time of others is normal cultural development. .

If you look at history, aggression is also normal. So is tribalism, ethnocentrism, parasitism, xenophobia, rape and Stockholm Syndrome. Healthy cultures teach us to rise above might makes right.

"Acting spitefully toward others because you want to insult them is poor behavior, but not really what's under the umbrella of the more recent traditions or revivals"

I think that everyone has their own umbrella. Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanuka have been used by some to divide. Fox News wants Christians angry when the government says "happy holidays" to be more inclusive. Some leftwards tell African American Christians that they are uncle Toms if they celebrate Christmas rather than some new thing made in San Francisco. And some Jewish twits cry of a second holocaust when their grandson gives a friend. Christmas gift. There's nothing wrong with Christmas, Kwanzaa or Hanuka, but it's racist to tell African Americans that they need to celebrate Kwanzaa instead of Christmas.

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D.W.
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Pete, the short answer is; unless he's old enough to participate in discussions like these, pop in Frosty or Ruldolph and call it a day. If his teachers are seriously dragging the politics of a war on Christmas into the classroom of kids so young you need to step in, tell them (the teachers) to knock it off.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
If you look at history, aggression is also normal. So is tribalism, ethnocentrism, parasitism, xenophobia, rape and Stockholm Syndrome. Healthy cultures teach us to rise above might makes right.
Which is why you step back and respect the right of others to celebrate what hey want instead of telling them that they can't because they must conform to what you consider is acceptable to celebrate.
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kmbboots
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
That's why Christan's put up so little fight to the secularization of the holiday.

Tell that to Cromwell. Or the Pilgrims.

But here is how you fuel the outrage of the Republican base.

quote:
Mrs. Obama: For half a century, people of all ages have gathered around the tv to watch Charlie Brown, Lucy, Linus and the rest of the gang teach us the true meaning of Christmas.

President Obama: They teach us that tiny trees just need a little love, and that on this holiday we celebrate peace on Earth and goodwill toward all.

Mrs. Obama: Because as Linus knows, that’s what Christmas is all about.

Sweet, right? A little nostalgic, feel-good participation from the first family on the anniversary of "A Charlie Brown Christmas".

Nope. Not to the Republicans.

Good Grief! Obama thinks Christmas is about loving tiny trees

quote:
President Obama took a break from saving the icebergs to weigh in on what he believes to be the true meaning of Christmas – loving tiny trees.

The president, along with the first lady, delivered their homage to foliage during an appearance on a television program recognizing the 50th anniversary of “A Charlie Brown Christmas.”

Obama Forgets Jesus Is True Meaning of Christmas in Charlie Brown Christmas Linus Speech
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
quote:
But trying to take Yule back now is like telling Muslims they have to give up the dome of the Rock. Christians today do not celebrate Christmas with the intent of supplanting Yule.
So? What does that have to do with the people that want to celebrate Yule. They're doing so doesn't take anything away from Christians, it just gives more people something to celebrate and identify with.

quote:
Actual worshippers and priests of the old ways were among those that wove Yuletide and Christmas together.
Sure, that's what happens when you kill off the ones that can't tell which way the wind is blowing.
.

Not sure who you are accusing me of killing. And when you make what you seem to think is a counterargument in favor of Yule, I think you have confused my argument with someone else's. Many good Christians since the 11th century have labored to remember the old traditions and words as well as our own. The holly and the Ivy, etc.

[ December 03, 2015, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
That's why Christan's put up so little fight to the secularization of the holiday.

Tell that to Cromwell. Or the Pilgrims.

They are dead, Kate. And their ideas only resurrected to slur Christians, by the likes of Justice Stephens. A small group of small minds in a small part of the Christian world during a short period of history.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Not sure who you are accusing me of killing. And when you make what you seem to think is a counterargument in favor of Yule, I think you have confused my argument with someone else's. Many good Christians since the 11th century have labored to remember the old traditions and words as well as our own. The holly and the Ivy, etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_you

Once the Christians of that era killed enough of the priests that resisted assimilation, the ones that were left were certainly more than happy to find a compromise that left them alive and in power instead of fighting back.

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Fenring
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Now you've made me curious. What "era" are we talking about where the Christians killed dissenters who wouldn't switch sides?
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pyrtolin:
[QUOTE when you make what you seem to think is a counterargument in favor of Yule, I think you have confused my argument with someone else's. Many good Christians since the 11th century have labored to remember the old traditions and words as well as our own. The holly and the Ivy, etc.

...
Once the Christians of that era killed enough of the priests that resisted assimilation
[/QUOTE]

Yes that happened in many places. But in other places, there seems as best I can tell, to have been mutual symbiosis. Margullan evolution rather than Darwinian. It's happened at least twice in history; once in what is now called England and again in Samoa, where priests of the old gods actually welcomed and embraced the new God, at a time which the old gods still had the majority worship.

I don't dispute that your model was usually applicable. But as best I can tell, you err specifically with regard to Yule.

Priests of the old gods in England and in Samoa actually claimed a revelation from those old gods to embrace Christianity. And that was prior to any killing having occurred. I can't say that I'm entirely comfortable with that as a Christian. But I resist the idea of throwing out facts that don't fit my model.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Now you've made me curious. What "era" are we talking about where the Christians killed dissenters who wouldn't switch sides?

Here, "that era" specifically refers to the missionary work in England where Yuletide and Christmastime merged. And as best I can tell, he's wrong about that, even though the model he described did occur in many or most other places Christianity supplanted previous traditions.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kmbboots:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
That's why Christan's put up so little fight to the secularization of the holiday.

Tell that to Cromwell. Or the Pilgrims.

But here is how you fuel the outrage of the Republican base.

quote:
Mrs. Obama: For half a century, people of all ages have gathered around the tv to watch Charlie Brown, Lucy, Linus and the rest of the gang teach us the true meaning of Christmas.

President Obama: They teach us that tiny trees just need a little love, and that on this holiday we celebrate peace on Earth and goodwill toward all.

Mrs. Obama: Because as Linus knows, that’s what Christmas is all about.

Sweet, right? A little nostalgic, feel-good participation from the first family on the anniversary of "A Charlie Brown Christmas".

Nope. Not to the Republicans.

Good Grief! Obama thinks Christmas is about loving tiny trees

quote:
President Obama took a break from saving the icebergs to weigh in on what he believes to be the true meaning of Christmas – loving tiny trees.

The president, along with the first lady, delivered their homage to foliage during an appearance on a television program recognizing the 50th anniversary of “A Charlie Brown Christmas.”

Obama Forgets Jesus Is True Meaning of Christmas in Charlie Brown Christmas Linus Speech

[DOH]

It is pretty shallow. But if we wanted a Christian with any depth, we wouldn't have replaced Carter with Reagan.

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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Now you've made me curious. What "era" are we talking about where the Christians killed dissenters who wouldn't switch sides?

4th and 5th century Roman Empire in particular. Started with bans on pagan practices, an eventually proceeded to military action and outright placing the death penalty on them. By the time it was pushing out to the Germanic, Saxon, Celtic, etc... populations, it already had a strong reputation for killing those that didn't play ball, so there were suddenly many local priests more than willing to play ball and accommodate Christian beliefs, blending their practices with Christian ones because they knew that the alternative was extinction.
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Pyrtolin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
quote:
Originally posted by Fenring:
Now you've made me curious. What "era" are we talking about where the Christians killed dissenters who wouldn't switch sides?

Here, "that era" specifically refers to the missionary work in England where Yuletide and Christmastime merged. And as best I can tell, he's wrong about that, even though the model he described did occur in many or most other places Christianity supplanted previous traditions.
Because many of those other places came first, so, as I said, those who came later knew which way the wind was blowing when their turn came up.
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