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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Offensive, perhaps, but funny. Very. (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Offensive, perhaps, but funny. Very.
RickyB
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If you might be offended by something that spoofs the religious/conservative mindset pretty harshly, please don't click on the following link.

If, on the other hand, you're the kind of immoral nihilist who delights in ridiculing the pillars of our great ciivlization, please do. [Big Grin]

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ben5
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That's really funny [Big Grin]
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Wwolfs
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The first time I saw that site, I wasn't sure if it was for real or not . . .now it has

quote:
Unreal Tournament 2004® Bible Based Maps & Characters!
Help Jesus defend the Temple Mount in a blood spattering Holy Death Match

That's freaking hillarious.
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FIJC
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Yeah, it's really funny to ridicule other people's beliefs *sarcasm*.

Meaningful debate belongs on Ornery; this isn't meaningful debate, and I don't think it merits bandwidth here.

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Wwolfs
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It's parody, FIJC. Chill. The site isn't ridiculing Christianity, it's spoofing right-wing fundamentalism.

Laugh a little. I thought this site was funny back when I WAS a Christian.

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FIJC
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quote:
"The site isn't ridiculing Christianity, it's spoofing right-wing fundamentalism."
Spoofing and parodying is ridicule that is too cowardly to be presented in any other form other than humor. Parodying in some cases can be humorous, but I do not think it fits into the mission of this forum.

I looked at the link and it seemed like ridicule to me; I didn't find it funny at all. By modern defintion, I am a fundamentalist Christian too. I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and verbally inspired--everything in the Bible is true. I also know that I do not deserve to be made fun of for beliefs that I take very seriously.

I just think that people should look at the mission statement of Ornery prior to posting questionable material.

quote:
"I WAS a Christian"
Seriously, if you thought the website was funny when you were a Christian, your faith was probably already in decline at the time.

[ April 25, 2004, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: FIJC ]

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pickled shuttlecock
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I think fundamentalist Christians are pretty wrong on some points - to where I definitely don't consider myself one - and I don't find the site funny at all.

Maybe for the sake of parallelism we can find a site poking fun at athiests or something. Maybe instead of a Jesus thong it can feature a thong with a hole in the front and the words, "I'm BEGGING for an STD!"

(I don't believe a secular humanist would really wear one, and it's just about as offensive...so we have parallelism, right?)

Anybody up to making or finding a site like that?

What would Jesus do?

I'm suddenly having flashbacks to the religious sensitivity training for atheists thread.

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Everard
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You know, he does specifically say that if you're offended by certain types of stuff, not to go there... I think thats pretty fair warning.

I mean, I was never warned about going to a catholic service.

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RickyB
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quote:
Seriously, if you thought the website was funny when you were a Christian, your faith was probably already in decline at the time.

You never did amount to much...
[Big Grin] [Big Grin] [Big Grin]

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Ron
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How would we feel if an anti semetic website were brought up making fun of jews. Or maybe something that made fun of "polacks".

I think we give leeway to the "dominant" portion of society and allow that to be made fun of. Is that right or does dominance make something less holy? Is the same "courtesy" offered in other societies of certain dominant religions in areas? Perhaps its a western characteristic that allows it?

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pickled shuttlecock
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Ev:

quote:
You know, he does specifically say that if you're offended by certain types of stuff, not to go there... I think thats pretty fair warning.
I suppose we could let it slide, then, if someone posted links to hardcore porn sites and then made sure we were well warned ahead of time.

Or does that stuff not belong on Ornery, either?

Sorry, your argument is bunk. Care to find another reason the original post is A-OK?

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Everard
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Difference between illegal activity and non-illegal activity.

Ron's counter argument is more compelling.

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RickyB
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antisemitic? As in, made fun of...Jewish ritual? The way Jewish publications look and read? I'd laugh at stuff like that just as easily, if it was done as well.

If there were a Jewish Coalition aiming to make the public sphere more "Jewish", and impose "Jewish values" upon the public sphere, I'd laugh even it was less funny.

If all antisemites did was say "look how pompous and ridiculous those Jews are" they wouldn't be nearly as bad.

Organised religion, being so often devoid of humor, needs to be ragged often.

Finally, riddle me this (not someone specific, just anyone who finds my little link offensive): Who do you think this site spoofs? all churches and religious sects? No, only certain ones. A very specific kind. So why would you be offended? Surely your church, it's site and publications look nothing like this.

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Rte66
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I found the site funny, offensive and sophmoric about in that order. I did think the warning was fair. But it does seem borderline to the mission statement of Ornery.

I don't see how any open minded person does not see how some of it would be offensive to a religious Christian. Anyone that holds Jesus a sacred could easily be offended by the underwear ad.

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LetterRip
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As to appropriate for this forum, well not really, but then neither is discussion of our favorite movies (not that I mind the occassional diversion). Although I think by nature of it being offensive it is much less appropriate than the fun 'fluff' threads we occassionaly have.

It really isn't very funny, the writer is far to over the top. It's a wannabe The Onion, but without the talent.

quote:
Spoofing and parodying is ridicule that is too cowardly to be presented in any other form other than humor.
I disagree. Why do you think it is cowardly? I'd be willing to bet that individual who has written the parody has probably criticisms of Fundamentalist Christianity using other techniques as well.

quote:
By modern defintion, I am a fundamentalist Christian too.
Agreed.

quote:
I also know that I do not deserve to be made fun of for beliefs that I take very seriously.
By virtue of you (or anyone for that matter) taking a belief seriously, should it be exempt to ridicule or parody? Should only religious beliefs be exempt or should all beliefs be so exempt?

quote:
I believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God and verbally inspired--everything in the Bible is true.
Off the topic, but what is your source of this belief?

LetterRip

[ April 25, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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Ron
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Such humor can be clever, but it also dehumanizes (even slightly). By creating images that stereotype one group of people or another we begin descending into a type of "Amos and Andy" mindset that allows such lampooning.

I think the more important issue is whether a dominant part of society should be more open to attack than minority portions. If we accept that then attacks on Christianity are in a different catagory than attacks on Judaism, Muslims and other groups, at least within our society.

Otherwise, if we hold a certain standard that should apply to all, then we need to ask ourselves to what level should humor of this type be approved of?

Some people think it is fun and funny to make fun of people or what people might hold sacred. Should it be?

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FIJC
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quote:
"You know, he does specifically say that if you're offended by certain types of stuff, not to go there... I think thats pretty fair warning.

I mean, I was never warned about going to a catholic service."

I don't even know why I bother posting here anymore. Unfortunately, I don't find the blind leading the blind amusing anymore.

I have better ways to spend my time. Best of luck to the forum, but it is time for me to move on.

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potemkyn
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Ricky,

This site paints Christians as very wealthy, all white and from the South, and of course anti-semetic. There are links to several Hitler/anti-semetic books and Childrens books like "Levi the Dancing Cockroach." I was offended but I have a thick skin by now. So much of this leads to an ability to dismiss it quickly. Thanks for yet another oppurtunity to do just that.

Potemkyn

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potemkyn
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FIJC,

I'm really sorry to hear that, I've appreciated your voice on this forum, but I can certainly see why you're leaving. I hope you change your mind. [Frown]

Potemkyn

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Ron
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I too think its better that you stay, too many people who need to grow up are here. Your maturity would help us all.
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WarrsawPact
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FIJC still was right.
That link doesn't belong here on Ornery. At least I don't feel it does.
And you know what? I know precisely why FIJC is leaving, and it's been bothering me too.

Ornery just isn't what it was when I got here, and it certainly isn't what it was when FIJC got here.
Seemingly, fewer and fewer people see fit to follow OSC's vision of what an Ornery American is when they post here, either in word or in spirit. Anyone who's been here a while knows I've been guilty of that.
If things don't come back to the respectful and serious debate I saw back in my first months here, I'll probably be typing up a post not very much unlike FIJC's.
Bah. It's only been eight months or so. [Frown]

[ April 25, 2004, 11:56 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

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RickyB
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Potemkyn, no. this site paints a certain kind of christians thus. I can't make fun of any kind of christian congregation or sect? Not even the most outlandish and pompous? Can I make fun of Televangelists? But millions of people believe in them! Wouldn't that be offensive?

For what's it worth: I think religious people should just learn to live with the fact that to a large number of people, their faith is funny.

I'm sorry this has caused such a brouhaha. I had hoped it wouldn't - that liberals would get a good laugh and conservatives would ignore and move on. I've seen parody items here before, including some pretty venomous ones going in the other political direction, but I guess there's a difference.

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Enumclaw
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I thought the site was funny, but it was inappropriate to post a link to it from here.

Bye, FIJC. I share your feelings about Ornery; yet as one of the Ornery Eight I'm apparently as much a part of the problem as can be. Sigh. Sorry.

Paul

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potemkyn
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Ricky,

Sure it does. That you can't see how this might be offensive is exactly why FIJC left (and to be honest why I've posted less hear lately). You find my beliefs humorous, and you can't seem to see why I wouldn't want to debate with someone who boasts of that. I can take your beleifs and unbeliefs seriously, please, take mine seriously.

There's nothing more I can say hear because I've said it over and over again and no one listens. It's like nothings changed, it's all the same thing. The same characters in the book with different names.

Potemkyn

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Everard
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I apologize for my remarks earlier on this thread.

I should have paid more attention to the site before making them :-/

That site is clearly out of line for ornery.

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Wwolfs
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*shrug* Humor exists in hyperbole. Clearly, Christians, DON'T act like that; the site isn't trying to say they are like that. When I was a Christian, it was funny because I saw the beginnings of such extremism in myself, and I tempered my faith with laughter (thanks for the ad hominem attack, though. How clear it is to me now that "declining faith" is the reason I now think as I do. How wrong I was all these years.). It's funny to me now because it provides a release to the stress of living under the eye of a judgemental dominant religion.

Many evangalistic styles use hyperbole to spread their message (chick tracks come to mind, as do the testimonials of people lamenting their previously sinful lives), and that is acceptable. Such evangalism asks people to change their entire lives and inmost beliefs. Yet, in the name of humor, hyperbole is offensive?

No, what is offensive are websites like this. [/CODE] Such sites are made more offensive by the fact that people actually believe in that. That sort of extremism in Christianity is what makes parody acceptable. THAT sort of stress is what makes it acceptable to laugh. If you want Christianity to be above parody, then look to your own house.

Common laughter is one way for members of a minority religion (non-Christians, atheists, agnostics, pagans) to reaffirm their identity, comeraderie and sanity. If you think being a Christian is hard, try not being one! None of MY religious symbols make it into the mainstream media. Wearing a cross is stylish, but OMFG THAT GUY IS WEARING A PENTAGRAM. MY religious holidays don't get a mention on TV or a national day off, don't even get marked on most calenders. Neither do most Jewish holidays, or Muslim, or . . .

So forgive us if we laugh at the Christian behemoth that dominates American culture. Forgive us if our fears are deamed unworthy of public discussion. And if we use parody as our means of humor, forgive us, for it is an issue too difficult to often discuss directly.

If we offend, it is because we feel threatened. And if we laugh, it is because we are desperate.

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bearcatmark
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Well i am glad that i found out parody, and satire are weak forms of expression...FIJC

I guess some of the great works of Mark Twain, and Jonathan Swift were weak because of that satirical nature.

What makes people believe their beliefs should be above humor? Why can't we joke about whatever we want? If you want to joke about my agnostic beliefs(or lack there of i guess) than be my guest.

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RickyB
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Potemkyn, I don't boast of it, I merely explained it after it became an issue. And you haven't had the opportunity to treat my spiritual beliefs with respect or otherwise, because I almost never present them here, and if I do it's only in passing. I certainly never offer them as a reason or a basis for a political stance.

Now, even if I had chosen to discuss my personal cosmology, and you found it hilarious, ridiculous, quaint or whatever, that wouldn't offend me in the least. I can't really understand why y'all would find it so offensive. So somebody finds your religion risible. So what?

As for the decline and fall of the Ornery Empire - this was not offered in the course of discourse, and was labled as satire for the purpose of humor.

Now, I've already apologized for the fuss I've caused, but I'd like to add that the only reason I even bothered linking to the site was that it's not only funny, it's also an impressive amount of effort. If it were just a picture or one page I wouldn't have bothered, since the amount of such stuff on the net is endless. Not that this will make anyone who was offended feel better about the whole thing, but I wanted to say it.

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Murdok
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WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: WARNING: - humor about Christ followers to follow....Tongue firmly in atheist cheek...

Okay now - My devine being! Some of you on Ornery ought to lighten up! Not everything has to be totally PC and dry and boriing. This Landover site is funnier than a bunch of Christains in a Roman Colliseum at Christmas holding rubber chickens in the rain!!

Anyone remember those little comics that were found in bathrooms, on your car windshield and all around elementary schools as a kid? The Jesus comics that showed the evils of evolution, sex, drugs, being Jewish or hindu - and any number of things? Now those were funny! I'm sure the creators did not intend them to be, but in high school we fought over them, traded them and derived hours of good fun reading them to each other over beers our older brothers bought us (as an atheists - we drank beer and did lots of other evil things too). I don't seem to recall if any of my friends became better Christians or not by reading these wonderful bits of my childhood.

At any rate I've seen the Landover site for a year or so and it's gotten much better with time.
quote:
Maybe for the sake of parallelism we can find a site poking fun at athiests or something. Maybe instead of a Jesus thong it can feature a thong with a hole in the front and the words, "I'm BEGGING for an STD!"

I don't think this will work, for one thing, most Christains don't have enough of a sense of humor to be cutting edge - they would end up offending themselves if they tried to make a site like this - I mean can you imagine them saying:
quote:
Clem - we can do a joke about atheists and how they think the world is 4.5 billion years old...

Joe Bob - It's not 6 thousand years old Clem?

Clem - no...I mean yes, but we can make fun of their obviously misguided beliefs that the world is billions of years old, not the 6,000 as depicted in the Bible...

Joe Bob - but Clem - the Bible never says it's 6,000 years old...

Clem - well, yes it does, you have to count all of the begats and such, and then multiply the begats by the age of Noah and then add that to the how long it took Eve to mother a bunch of other kids each averaging some number or other years of age...

Joe Bob - but what does this have to do with the earth being billions of years old and how the atheists will be offended by saying something funny about this?

Clem - Well, um...never mind. We can just make fun of the fact that they believe we came from monkeys...

Joe Bob - we came from Monkeys?!?!?!?

Clem - no, I mean yes - well - never mind....

See what I mean? It just won't happen.

(Edited for to add space in the warnings section of my post. thanks P Shuttlecock for letting me know it was problematic. [Smile] )

[ April 26, 2004, 01:32 AM: Message edited by: Murdok ]

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seagull
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FIJC, potemkyn If you don't like RickyB thread please report him to the moderator. Or do exactly what you just did to this thread, criticize it and let people know that they offended you and how.

Don't just leave!

Leaving is a different form of cowardice, but it is cowardice nontheless. If you find that site offensive, fight it! Or ignore everything RickyB says from now on but don't give up on the rest of us.

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Ikemook
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*blinks* Wow...three to twenty-eight posts in a few hours...

I'd say I have a bad feeling about this, but...that'd be a bit late, now wouldn't it...

FIJC, I'd like to add my voice into the choir of persons who would like it if you were to stay. It's your choice, of course, but I have valued your opinion, and continue to do so. As have many other people.

David

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pickled shuttlecock
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Could you put some spaces in that "WARNING:WARNING:..." thing Murdok? It's putting a horizontal scrollbar at the bottom of my browser, making it hard to read the thread.

Cheers!

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Murdok
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Wwolfs -
http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html
Now this is offensive. It's just plain mean. It uses the God is a mean, nasty thug approach to it's content. Whoa - if this is what the otherside thinks is funny, well, maybe I've underestimated the sense of humor of some Christains.

BTW - Good Luck FIJC in finding your future place in the world to post ideas and thoughts. You might try our other site -
www.ai-jane.org

A broad set of viewpoints with a sense of humor that includes not taking yourself so seriously.

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potemkyn
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Real quick,

quote:
And you haven't had the opportunity to treat my spiritual beliefs with respect or otherwise, because I almost never present them here, and if I do it's only in passing. I certainly never offer them as a reason or a basis for a political stance.
If you look back at my posts you can see I do this for others who do voice their opinions. You can assume I'll grant you the same curteousy.

quote:
I can't really understand why y'all would find it so offensive. So somebody finds your religion risible. So what?
It isn't just this. It is a history of repeated offences. It is constant ridicule and bashing that I'm fed up with. I've countered bash after bash only to see the same ones come up again and again. It's stupid. It's like the situation with Trent Lott. It's not that what was written or posted was that bad in and of itself but that it wasn't an isolated incident.

quote:
Some of you on Ornery ought to lighten up! Not everything has to be totally PC and dry and boriing
Don't try that ******** here Murdok. Like I said above, it isn't that the site by itself is awful but that this is only one of a series of offences. One which shows no sign of abatement.

seagull,

I promise nothing, but I will say, that I would back out only if it got to the point where I would do to much damage to the forum to keep posting.

Potemkyn

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Wwolfs
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Murdok: that site isn't a joke. It's an actual church, and yes that's really what they do.
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Murdok
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Potemkyn -

You're a funny man!

But a little advice - Lighten up pal! Your post is exactly the kind of "I'm too serious for my shirt" crap I'm talking about. RickyB's post was about humor and the site is funny and it's no different than anything you'd see on Jay Leno or Saturday Night Live.

Not everything in here has to be so serious...you can make some really valid points with humor. And the fact not all of us are Christains and can see humor in the Landover site is refreshing in this forum. At least to some of us. I would happily welcome funny, cutting jokes about atheists. The key is to not take yourself so seriously.

It sounds like there is some weak attempt to stiffle speech in here. There were no direct insults to specific members...and while some may have a thin skin and be a little offended, some of us find it very funny and very topical indeed.

[ April 26, 2004, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: Murdok ]

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seagull
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Can't remember where I saw this one:

quote:
If god could create the whole universe in 7 days, what's there to stop him from adding a few dinosaur bones and rocks with strangely misleading carbon dating just to get those silly pseudo scientists of track?
Now, that would be quite a cosmic joke on most atheists, and quite funny in my personal opinion. But then it is not quite fair for God to use his powers to pick on someone who can't even compete ...

Oops I forgot, the atheists don't believe in a God more powerful than they are so it doesn't really hurt them ...

But then maybe it does, just because they don't see how funny it is doesn't mean they don't suffer ...

How can a benevolent God do such a thing to his own creations (if if they are atheists?)

For that matter, why on Earth did he create atheists in the first place? Was it just so he could play jokes on them? That wasn't very nice of him was it?

And then again ...

Maybe God did create the universe several Billions of years ago and the joke is on those who take the Bible literally ...

I am starting to get a headache from all this speculation, I guess the joke is on me.

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Murdok
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Wwolfs - I understand that - but I'm shocked anyone could take that seriously. I doubt even anyone in here would take it seriously and not be offended at the level of pure hatred contained in there. Parody is one thing, pure hatred of your fellow man is another.
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David Ricardo
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Disclaimer: I am not judging anyone here.

How many of the guys here read the Onion? Personally, I find some of the stuff posted on the Onion as more offensive than what was posted by RickyB. We must also consider that RickyB did put up a disclaimer around this topic, so we should also take that into account.

Personally speaking, I have no problems with political or social satire directed against my ideology, ethnicity, or religion. I view such humor as another, perhaps more indirect, vehicle for addressing certain awkward socio-political topics. One might argue that the aforementioned website contributes no positive value to the ongoing deate about the world around us; I do not disagree with that.

Anyway, I guess that I am just saying that I think RickyB meant no harm in his post. RickyB himself did deliberately place a disclaimer about the website link and has apologized for offending people. So, I think it is clear that RickyB was not trying to be vindictive against "Christian fundamentalists" even if he might have been perceived as doing so.

[ April 26, 2004, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: David Ricardo ]

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Murdok
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Seagull - I've heard that one before. It's a common argument in Creationist circles when they can't find a logical answer to suuport thier contentions. A place where there is no need for scientific proof or truth.

But if it is what God has done on purpose to fool us poor atheists - then I guess I'll be a laughing stock in my little part of the lake of fire with billions of others whom god was playing his nasty little tricksies on.

Don't fret though - I'll have on my asbestos waders.

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