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Author Topic: What [i]real[/i] Americans do.
Shane Roe
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We hear enough about the garbage a few Americans have done in Iraqi prisons. But here is a photo that's worth a thousand words. These seven Iraqi business men were recently given artificial hands after Saddam had their real hands severed nine years ago. All the time and equipment was donated, the surgery by American doctors, and the prosthetics by a German/American company.

Iraqis show new hands

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Daruma28
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Bah.

They are just issuing propaganda pictures. The real story here is that the Administration is simply finding more ways of enriching big business imperialism by giving lucrative contracts to prosthetic manufacturers........

[Wink]

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Tezcatlipoca
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Don't you get it? Good news isn't sensationalist, so why bother talking about it?

[Wink]

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RickyB
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This is indeed commendable. Admirable, in fact. However, and without taking a single thing away from these generous individuals and organizations, it doesn't change the fact that most hospitals in Iraq are still suffering from severe shortages of basic necessities. That's why ocassional news like that fails to sway public opinion over there.
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DonaldD
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I wonder if our own Ken Bean had a hand in this...
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Zyne
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Blame the national networks. It's been covered extensively in H-ton.

Ricky is onto something. Too bad this is another example of the haves getting treatment while the have-nots rot away.

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seagull
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quote:
I wonder if our own Ken Bean had a hand in this...
ROTFL!!!
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Shane Roe
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quote:
Too bad this is another example of the haves getting treatment while the have-nots rot away
Are you a glass is half-empty kind of person? You know don't you, that the majority of Americans are kind, giving individuals--at least I hope you know that. But the world gets this peep-hole view of the sexually perverted group of guards in Iraq, and thinks that's what America is all about. The real story is the G.I.s who are in those hospitals, visiting those kids. The G.I.s who are building schools, and the polls done by Iraqis that say that they are much better off without Saddam.

Shane

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Zyne
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Not so much half-empty, as totally disgusted by my country's behavior. I don't particularly care if it was one MP, or 20, or 100 who acted badly. Whatever number it was, it was that number too many. We all ought to be contrite. Instead, this president comes out and declares to the world how good a job the man in charge has done, is doing. You see, it's not just the soldiers. It's their bosses. It's systemic, and it's been sanctioned and minimized by our administration. Insult, following injury.

Kind and giving...Within bizarre limits, perhaps. I see a country full of superstitious people who cheat on their taxes and their spouses, who hate and fear education, women, gays and anyone different from them, and who are willing to fight and kill to keep their wasteful lifestyles intact.

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Daruma28
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quote:
I see a country full of superstitious people who cheat on their taxes and their spouses, who hate and fear education, women, gays and anyone different from them, and who are willing to fight and kill to keep their wasteful lifestyles intact.
I agree. The Arab world needs some serious reform.

Oh wait....you meant the US, right? LMAO...

What country do you live in?

Tell me what other country where one of the top rated TV shows is about a group of gay guys making millions giving fashion tips to straight men? Or were Women like Oprah Winfrey and Martha Stewart can build multi-million dollar media empires?

You sir lack some serious perspective. Repeating rote phrases by such liberal sophists like Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn and Susan Sontag hardly qualify as the definitive indictment of the US as the Great Satan.

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Zyne
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"I know you are but what am I."

Martha Stewart. Exactly.

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Shane Roe
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quote:
Not so much half-empty, as totally disgusted by my country's behavior. I don't particularly care if it was one MP, or 20, or 100 who acted badly. Whatever number it was, it was that number too many. We all ought to be contrite. Instead, this president comes out and declares to the world how good a job the man in charge has done, is doing. You see, it's not just the soldiers. It's their bosses. It's systemic, and it's been sanctioned and minimized by our administration. Insult, following injury.


Well, if I judged every American by the way L.B.J. escalated the Viet Nam war, and according to John Kerry let tons of atrocities occur, then I would have your jaded view as well. Yes, those idiots in Iraq made the U.S. look really bad, but it's not a true reflection of the hidden masses.

quote:
Kind and giving...Within bizarre limits, perhaps. I see a country full of superstitious people who cheat on their taxes and their spouses, who hate and fear education, women, s and anyone different from them, and who are willing to fight and kill to keep their wasteful lifestyles intact.
Well, you know, it's the liberal elite in Hollywood that promote the kind of cheating lifestyles you abhor in their trash masquerading as entertainment. I don't think it's fighting and killing to keep lifestyles intact, but freedom. Unless you're throwing out the war for oil leftist line. I do agree with you on one thing though--we are wasteful.

Shane

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Zyne
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A large portion, perhaps half, of this country will vote to re-elect GWB. That will be an endorsement of our leadership that says, notwithstanding anything, Rumsfeld et al are doing a good job. And that, or not voting at all, will be a "true reflection of the hidden masses."

"liberal elite in Hollywood"...Do you need more caps with that? I'm pretty sure Rush says it with more caps.

War for power. Destruction for oil, which is a different thread entirely and not at all limited to Iraq.

Whacky quote thing: Either Shane (I assume inadvertantly) or the quote function took out "gay" before that lonely "s".

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seagull
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quote:
I don't particularly care if it was one MP, or 20, or 100 who acted badly. Whatever number it was, it was that number too many. …

I see a country full of superstitious people … who are willing to fight and kill to keep their wasteful lifestyles intact.

I agree 100%

But how does that lead to: “We all ought to be contrite” instead of “We all ought to be indignant and do something about it”?

Are all Americans responsible for what a few bad apples did?

Every country has its bad apples. Indeed, almost every large group of soldiers would have at least one somewhat bad apple. Most of them do not dare to do their worse for fear of peer criticism and/or punishment. But every once in a while, some of them still do. One of the best ways to prevent this kind of thing from happening again is to send a clear message to those bad apples over all media channels: “Doing this kind of stuff hurts your country, if that is not enough to stop you – it will also get you court-martialed. And if that is not enough to scare you, we'll get you ostracized on national TV as well.

I think we as a country are in the process of sending that message to all ranks of the military! I am sure that many soldiers who never read the Geneva convention before are going out of their way to read it after the publicized trials and discussing it with their peers after they do.

What I do not understand is why something like this would lead you to being: “totally disgusted by my country's behavior”.

What ever happened to: "my country, right or wrong …”?
Do you know how Carl Schurz’s continued that quote?
Do you disagree with him?

[ May 20, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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seagull
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quote:
seagull: I agree 100%
OOPS, On second thought not all of them are willing to fight and kill. Many of them are simply willing to send our soldiers to do the fighting, killing and dying while they continue their wasteful lifestyle.

But I am not sure that the actual soldiers doing the fighting and killing are necessarily the ones being wasteful. And besides, these days, it is not THIS country that is "full" of them. [Wink]

[ May 20, 2004, 11:42 PM: Message edited by: seagull ]

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Zyne
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seagull asks:

quote:
Are all Americans responsible for what a few bad apples did?
These apples, yes. When they are our servicemen and women, the individuals we have hired, trained and sent out to represent our country, we are absolutely responsible for them.

For sure, the abuse itself is awful. I am also appalled by the reaction of this administration. They might be sorry, but they maintain everyone in a position of power is doing a great job. That is inconceivable--The abuse that has gone on is totally incompatible with a good job.

If it weren't my country, right or wrong, I wouldn't care so much.

Put it in the corporate context. Isn't a company responsible for the actions of its representatives? Is a manager doing a good job if hir's employees have taken to beating up the customers?

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Zyne
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Nice slant [Smile]

No, most Merrykuns won't fight and kill in their own right; they have people for that.

Do you think that all this redeployment nonesense is a play to keep the soldiers out of the city?

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Leto
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How did they lose those limbs to begin with again? [Wink]

Kidding. And what I think Zyne means is that those who already had the money to afford to get to these companies—who are doing fine work—are reaping the benefits, while the much larger percent of the population over there can't get enough for just the basic necessities, let alone to a place where prosthetics would be available.

`Taint much different from here, except the gulf between "have" and "have not" is larger over there. Something we are trying to fix, but it ain't gonna happen in a year.

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Shane Roe
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quote:
"liberal elite in Hollywood"...Do you need more caps with that? I'm pretty sure Rush says it with more caps.

If I listened to him, maybe I'd have known that. Sorry, if you want to argue whether or not something is true based upon who said it, well, you're in plain denial of the facts. Argue the point I made about popular entertainment, not who you think I heard it from.
[Wink]
Shane

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Leto
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You want to argue some liberal elite? Dude, there are both liberal and conservative elites, as well as a much larger moderate one. Making conspiracy theories about some "elite" that just so happens to have an opposing ideology to you just makes you look stupid.
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Zyne
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What Leto said (and what I said) -- or, to put it another way, new hands for seven helps ordinary Iraqis about as much as new diamonds for seven would.

Shane, "the liberal elite" is just a catch phrase, devoid of all meaning. "Popular entertainment" may have more teeth. Like Mel Gibson?

[ May 21, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Zyne ]

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David Ricardo
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In the spirit of reporting good news, here is some news about the success of the Phraselator:

http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.phrase18may18,0,197765.story?coll=bal-business-headlines

quote:
Near Iraq's border with Kuwait, Sean P. Collins, a Special Forces team sergeant, met a group of children and asked them if they had seen the enemy.

He spoke into a hand-held black box, called the Phraselator, which translated his English into Arabic and broadcast it clearly through a speaker.

The children pointed to a weapons cache, which included a mortar tube that was ready to be used and rocket-propelled grenades, which Collins destroyed.

"Finding the weapons cache with the kids ... never would have happened if I didn't pull out the unit," said Collins, who noted that several military teams had previously passed through the area without detecting the weapons. "It is an excellent device; there is nothing else like it."

VoxTec, the Annapolis maker of the Phraselator, is counting on testimonials like Collins' to make the high-tech translation device popular enough to be close at hand for U.S. troops around the world.

It seems like these Phraselator gadgets just might solve our dire problem of inadquate Arabic translation capability in the War on Terror for us. Score one point for us free-trading capitalists [Big Grin]
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Daruma28
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quote:
I know you are but what am I."

Martha Stewart. Exactly.

Nice way to duck an argument.

Insider trading notwithstanding, you cannot deny that Martha Stewart built a large commercial enterprise that made her a multi-millionaire.

Yeah...America is just SO horrible and oppressive to Women, we really held down people like Oprah and Martha.

Or we hate gays so much that Queer eye for the straight guy is a huge hit.

Your view is skewed.

In Muslim countries women are forced to wear head to toe coverings under the threat of beatings ir their calf is accidentally exposed...or that infidelity is met with a death sentence. Hell, rape victims are murdered by their own family for "honor!" Or how about in Africa, where pubescent girls are castrated so that they cannot experience sexual pleasure, making them more likely to remain faithful to their arranged marriages.

And gays? Nevermind that a gay person in a America can be open about it and still run a successful business = in America, the debate is about redefining the definition of marriage to include gays, in the third world, the debate consists of should we castrate them or behead them for defiling Islam.

Yes...America is just SO unfair and terrible.

[rolleyes]

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Shane Roe
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Liberal elite, a catch phrase that makes me look stupid eh? To me, not answering the argument, as I'm sure you intellectuals understood it(even though I used the catch phrase of the "conspiracy theorists"), and instead attacking a person from whom it is assumed I must have heard it, is what makes a person look devoid of intellect.

Back to the point, liberal elite is not a meaningless term (look up liberal and elite in the dictionary, they are both words with meaning). But for the sake of argument, let me just say that those with most of the control in Hollywood are liberal and also elitist, much like liberal arts professors in most of the major universities (again, I'm sure you'll slam me for using Rush Limbaugh's language, though again, you'd be wrong). Thus to complain about the societal problems (which I agree are problems) of spouse cheating etc., without defining who's out there promoting it and dealing with that argument instead of just slamming it because it allegedly came from a conservative radio host, is really where the stupidity lies.

Who cares where a thought comes from, the question is, is it relevant. Zyne and Leto both have yet to prove that it isn't.

Shane

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Zyne
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Shane--*shrug* "Liberal elite" still sounds like likely shorthand to me: The label is thrown about by many without much thought to content. Additionally, both words are subjective. I can appreciate that it may have felt so to you, but tossing out an undefined, subjective phrase is hardly argument.

It is not so much that "liberal elite" is an irrelevant thought, it is that it is no thought at all.

In any event, unless this "liberal elite" comprises a majority or even a significant number of Americans--and they don't--then they are hardly responsible for the vices I cited. But let's include in wife-beating and NASCAR watching just to get a bit of the other side.

On proof--Shane, I don't see how any of this conversation can be proven or disproven. And I think it's a bit shortsighted to presume that a single, or even relatively multifaceted, provable solution to these problems exists.

Daruma--I'm sorry, I still find it hilarious that you are using Martha Stewart as an example of American virtue.

My view skewed? Nope, it's straight as an arrow. And not at all relativistic: What happens elsewhere does not make America more or less moral.

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Shane Roe
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quote:
In any event, unless this "liberal elite" comprises a majority or even a significant number of Americans--and they don't--then they are hardly responsible for the vices I cited.
Not a majority, but a strong minority with power to create works for television and the film industry that don't reflect what the majority of Americans are like. If you show enough scenes of illicit sex, and make it seem the norm, pretty soon those who watch these forms of entertainment start changing their views to match those of their favorite characters in any particular program. Thus, a small number of producers, actors, directors who are waaaaaaaaaay out there, have a huge impact on society.

But back to the original thing you brought up about America being full of bad people--I think you know way too many bad folks.

Shane

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Daruma28
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Never said she was an example of American virtue.

I just used her as an example of success for an American business Women. She was given the opportunity to build her business in a free society that you casually indict due to the attitudes of SOME.

Yeah, we are just SOOOOOOO oppressive to women.

[rolleyes]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
The real story is the G.I.s who are in those hospitals, visiting those kids
No, I'm afraid the "real story" is EVERYTHING that we have done in Iraq. The good along with the bad, but the fact is we must take responsibility for the bad. For you to say that the media is slanting the story, and then give a quote like the one above, is ironic. We can't just sit and imagine what we want this country and its military to be, and then declare those facts that support our view "the truth", and those that contradict a distortion. An honest appraisel sees positive and negative, and a responsible citizenry is more concerned with seeking justice for the negative than gloating over the positive.

Adam

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David Ricardo
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Part of the reason that we are not getting many "good stories from Iraq" is simply because Iraq has largely become too dangerous for Western journalists. Journalists cannot even walk outside their hotels now without risking a kidnapping by Iraqi insurgents.

That is why those reporters prefer to stay in the Green Zone and report on General Kimmitt's latest briefing instead of walking around Baghdad to interview a few Iraqi children who love what the United States has done for them.

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Zyne
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Yea, Daruma, we've come a long way, baby:

quote:
But although women make up almost half of America's labor force, still only two Fortune 500 companies have women CEOs or presidents, and 90 of those 500 companies don't have any women corporate officers.
Read more. The article, y'all'll note, is written with an emphasis on women who have done quite well in corporate America. Still, the numbers can't be ignored: 99.6% of the top decision makers in our major companies are men.

I guess I should stop with this untenable position. Ok, I give. The fact that 0.4% of women do make it to the top proves there's no repression!

</fish-in-barrel>

Oh yea--and its [Roll Eyes]

[ May 21, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Zyne ]

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Daruma28
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Fish in a barrell indeed......

lol.

The fact is women have a different set of priorities - and the unprecedented freedom to choose between career or raising children.

Those that eschew making families for pursuing their career with a single-minded purpose and dedication to work as hard as men and put in the same amount of effort and overtime, can and do rise to the same levels of accomplishment as any man can in this country. Like Oprah Winfrey.

But when a woman decides to have a family, it is inevitable that the career will not take first priority and the effort and sacrafice for career advancement is split between that and family time.

More vacation time, sick time and refusing to work overtime are all common sense results of women in the workforce with families at home.

There's nothing wrong with this, as a woman who decides to raise a family SHOULD take every effort to be their for her children - but you can't expect her to rise to the highest levels of her company with split priorities and commitment.

It's so easy to cite a simple statistic and then claim we are oppressive. Simplistic and laughable.

Just imagine YOU are the CEO of a company, and an executive position becomes open. You have two candidates - one, a man that never used a sick day in years, worked overtime almost every week to get projects done on time, and continually works during his off time to better his skills. The other is a mother who is just as competent, intelligent and capable....but she also never works overtime, frequently has to use sick days to care for children, and doesn't have quite the same focus on her career because of familial priorities. Who deserves the promotion more?

Like I said - any woman in this country that puts her time in a big corporation can and will rise to the highest levels.

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Shane Roe
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quote:
We can't just sit and imagine what we want this country and its military to be, and then declare those facts that support our view "the truth", and those that contradict a distortion. An honest appraisel sees positive and negative, and a responsible citizenry is more concerned with seeking justice for the negative than gloating over the positive.

Okay, you're absolutely right. But an honest appaisel would include actual percentages of news stories that reflect the actual percentages of good and bad things happening over there. They don't. The reason why is answered by Katie Couric's admission that there is a liberal bias in the media. Liberals dislike Bush and the war, so they can make the Iraq War look like it's all much worse than it really is--even though, admittedly, there's a lot of bad stuff going on. In no way is the amount of good stuff compared to bad stuff reflected in the news.

Shane

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TomDavidson
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"The reason why is answered by Katie Couric's admission that there is a liberal bias in the media."

No. Let me repeat this: it's because the media prints what sells, and bad news sells better. There's nothing surprising or new about this; they were making movies about this problem in the '30s, and writing poems about it in the 1600s.

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Daruma28
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Tom Davidson,

Is that why we are now entering the third week of headline/top spot news coverage of Abu Ghraib Prison even though recent polls show that Americans are basically sick of the story already?

Does that explain why Nick Berg merited one day of coverage before it went back to Abu Ghraib -- despite the fact that Nick Berg's video was the number one search term on the internet at Google, Yahoo and other search engines all last week?

Yeah, we can see how they are only motivated by what sells....what you say is true, to a certain extent, but it is not the be all end all standard for what they decide to cover. Over 90% of the press corps is registered Democrats....but their views never affect their coverage or editorial decisions, right? But on the other hand, we all know that Fox News is right wing biased and the owner is a Republican donor so their coverage is affected.......

Maybe you'll find a few results from this poll as interesting as I did:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120492,00.html

20. On the situation in Iraq today, where do you think most of the problems are being created?

1. In Iraq 23%
2. In Washington, DC, or 18
3. In the news media 27
4. (Combination) 21
5. (All) 8
6. (None) -
7. (Not sure) 3

27. Which of the following news stories upset you more?

1. The abuse of Iraqi prisoners
by U.S. soldiers 8%
2. The beheading of an American
civilian by Muslim terrorists 60
3. (Both equal) 29
4. (Not sure) 3

28. Do you think the media spent an excessive amount of time covering either of the following news stories?

1. The Iraqi prisoner abuse story 34%
2. The beheading of American Nick Berg 9
3. (Both were covered excessively) 35
4. (Neither was covered excessively) 15
5. (Not sure) 7

Now if the media was really interested in what sells, why the sparse coverage of Nick Berg and the wall to wall OJ Simpson styled coverage of Abu Ghraib?

[ May 22, 2004, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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Zyne
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Daruma, please support your sexist, ignorant assertions, else shut the frock up:

* The "fact" is women have a different set of priorities.

* Women who pursue their careers do so with a single-minded purpose and eschew their families can be just as successful as "any man."

* Women who do not do so should not be just as successful as "any man."

* Common sense exists.

* Women who work and have families tend to use/ask for/require more vacation and sick time, and they also refuse to work overtime.

* It is women, not men, who decide to raise families and, therefore, it is women, not men, who are morally obligated to make every effort to be tehre for their children.

* Any woman in this country that puts her time in a big corporation can and will rise to the highest levels.

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Daruma28
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Sexist and ignorant? LMAO....try this on for size - it's called real world experience in Corporate America.

Nothing I've said is sexist. It is fact. But I see that you can only reitierate what I posted and say they are sexist without actually adressing them.

Instead you resort to psuedo curse words to express your outrage at my real world observations.

Like I said, any fool can look at statistics and than make blanket assertions such as "Only a certain percentage of Women are CEOs, so America must be mysoginist."

Ever try and think WHY that is so, rather than taking the intellectually lazy approach of a baseless blanket condemnation that really only reinforces your pre-existing predjudice of America?

An board of directors has one criteria and one criteria only when they select the CEO of their corporation: which one has the best skills and experience in our business to lead the company to profitability for the shareholders.

Any woman that either doesn't have a family to split her time and priorities with, or one who sacrafices that time to concentrate on her career can and will rise to the highest levels. So few do, because the majority of Women in America do want to raise children.

Shut the frock up, indeed. heh. [Roll Eyes]

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Zyne
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Prove it, Daruma. Prove your "facts." We're waiting.
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Daruma28
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Prove me wrong.

Like I said, simply citing a statistic without showing real causation doesn't prove anything - no matter what Wmen Studies professors and feminist man-haters may say.

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Zyne
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No, child, the one who states the fact ought to be able to prove it. That would be you. As anyone with a shread of brains would know, it's impossible to prove a negative. So:

Prove it, Daruma. Prove your "facts." We're waiting.

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Shane Roe
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quote:
bad news sells better
Yes, that has been the age old complaint. But explain why the beheading of Nicholas Berg didn't receive nearly the continuous coverage as the prison abuse? Explain why any story that makes Bush look bad jumps to the top of the list, but something that makes Kerry look bad is swept under the table (for example, if one of Bush's daughters would've showed up in see thru clothes at a public function, it would've made the headlines---not so when Kerry's daughter did just that).

Shane

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