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Author Topic: I loved Arnold's speech
KenBean
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I really did!
...Liked Laura too...but Arnold was brilliant.

Everyone in the world who is NOT rich wants to come here...in spite of our failings...because of opportunity.

I gotta' say it...Arnold asked it..."Do you trust the United States more than the United Nations?"

Well personally..."yep"

Ken Bean

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RickyB
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You did? I wonder why...

"if you believe we must be fierce and relentless and terminate terrorism, then you are a Republican! ".

To which I say: Fock you, shrunken dick. I fight terrorism every day simply by living where I do. Don't tell me I have to agree with the way your numbskull leader does things to have the my heart in the right place. The only time your sorry ass ever saw a terrorist was in make believe, with red paint for blood and the script pre-determined to make sure you won. You'd probably **** your pants if you were ever in real danger.

ED. to add this beautiful nugget:
"We're the America that sends out missionaries and doctors to raise up the poor and the sick."

Wow, we send out missionaries nowadays? Nobody tells me nuthin' around here. Do we equip them with smallpox-infected blankets as well?

[ September 01, 2004, 02:43 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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OhPuhLeez
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Ricky - I was going to post to see if you were okay.

I'm glad to see this post here tonight.

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RickyB
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Thanks, OP. Just busy. I love the NFL, but the season-opening project is a bitch [Smile]
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RickyB
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"And when Nelson Mandela smiled in election victory after all those years in prison, America celebrated, too."

Actually, the US (and, to my shame Israel, which it supports) were far less faithful to the boycott on the apartheid regime than many other free governments. There's a reason why the current South African government is friendly to neither Israel or the US. They remember who did business with the previous regime.

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stayne
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I liked what he had to say, too, though I did find the "If...then you are a Republican" thing, while not out of place considering it _is_ a partisan gathering, a little silly. I kept thinking, it should have ended, "Then you are not a moron!"

I liked where he was talking about living under the Communists. Kind of lends perspective to the cries of the opposition of 'opression' and 'loss of rights'.

Probably, there will be an ad soon telling us he left the Communist country before he could speak, so he couldn't possibly have been there. [Wink]

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RickyB
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Doesn't have to be that...just proof that there were no Russian roadblocks anywhere near where he lived. [Big Grin]

Look, obviously the paeans to the glory and hope of America are things we can all agree on. That's just the point - we (left, democrats) say "we have better solutions". Republicans seems to prefer saying "we have better intentions". It's a bully kind of thing to say - not "you're going about it the wrong way" but "you don't WANT the things that good people want".

In the DNC people like Barack Obama were constantly making this point - that we all want pretty much the same things, and just differ on how to get them. I find that to be a less offensive way of stating differences.

[ September 01, 2004, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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OhPuhLeez
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I just kept assuming he was going to end it with, "Then...you are a redneck."

In my head, that's what he was saying [Big Grin] !

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ATW
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quote:
Originally posted by ATW:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ATW:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by RickyB:
[qb] "We're the America that sends out missionaries and doctors to raise up the poor and the sick."

Wow, we send out missionaries nowadays? Nobody tells me nuthin' around here.

Having personally met several dozen missionaries sent out by americans to other countries, let me assure you that its true.

As for the smallpox blankets you mentioned, I've not seen any but if you are wanting one for your personal use I'm sure several people around here would be willing to make sure you get one. [Wink]

edit:

The Nelson Mandela thing irked me too. The ANC was a communist front organization and Mandela's wife was an out-and-out terrorist. The ANC for most of its existance wasn't even the largest black political party in South Africa.

As desperately as South Africa needed equality of races, I'm proud the republican party didn't have much if anything to do with Nelson Mandela coming to power. If only the other political party could make such a claim.

Sometimes I think politicians forget its OK to advocate reform without endorsing people of dubious background or moral character. Look at Clinton's buddying up to Jean-Bertrand Aristide in Haiti or almost everyone embracing Arafat.

Come to think of it, Bush has cozied up to Arafat less than any other president in a long time. Kudos to Bush.

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Richard Dey
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Ricky: "Fock you, shrunken dick." Actually, there are pictures of him on the net nude and, as he claimed on a late-night show, he's better off than most Austrians ... though what that Kennedy woman has done to him, who knows?

I still say the Republicans have had much better speakers, nothing to say about speeches; they all seem to have had elocution training.

At least Laura didn't appear to be on drugs.

BOTH parties have short-scripted the SSM issue, which only shows how embarrassing it is for both parties.

Nader has failed the MA ballot; watch the Libertarian vote there if Republicans don't deal with their own gay relatives.

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RickyB
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Ah, ATW, but you miss a very important distinction:

Of course American churches send out missionaries. Our host spent a couple of years in Brazil on behalf of his. That's the business of those churches. A lot of churches from a lot of countries send out missionaries. That's their business. AMERICA, as a political entity, sends out no missionaries (not religious ones, anyway). I have no part whatsoever in sending out missionaries.

As for Mandela - his wife was indeed a murderous cunt, and he divorced her upon realizing this, but he himself is a very great man, and not everything which is left of center is communist. When you're oppressed, you take whatever allies you can find. I'm just ashamed it wasn't us.

As for the ANC not being the largest party...I assume that its huge electoral victories don't count? Or are you referring to the period during which it was outlawed and had an official membership of zero?

Oh, and Richard - those pictures, which I've actually seen, are of a very young Ahhhhnold. Before the alleged consequence of years of steroid abuse [Big Grin]

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Ron Lambert
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Ricky, Arnold was obviously speaking of America as a society, not as a national government, when he referred to sending out missionaries. Arnold was telling what America is, not what the government is.
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RickyB
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Oh - I happen to agree. Bush's attitude to Arafat is very appropriate. Then again, Clinton dealt with him BEFORE October 2000, so that's not a valid comparison, but Bush's attitude towards Arafat under the current circumstances is correct. If only he were as tough with Sharon.
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Pete at Home
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Ricky -- I defy you to name me one single missionary that gave anyone a smallpox-infected blanket? I believe you have confused history with anti-western propaganda. Why do you throw out such a hateful smear against Christians? I am one American who served as a missionary, and I doubt that I'm the only person on Ornery who you just smeared.

What "America" does is not limited to the actions of its government. You appear to know this yourself, since when you talk about the US and Israel not keeping the boycott as well as other countries, you can only be referring to the actions of private citizens to do commerce with the Apartheid government. To my knowledge, the US and Israeli governments did not step out and send money to uphold Apartheid. They failed to prevent individuals from trafficking with the Apartheid state, but one of our Christian-hating friends could just as well say that the US government fails to prevent missionaries from going out to other countries.

Mandela was a great man before he went dotty. So it goes -- Reagan did the same, except his family had the decency to take him out of public before he could say something stupid to disgrace his heritage.

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WmLambert
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Did anyone notice the Terminator thumbs-up at the end of his speech?

Perfect ending.

Check Zell Miller tonight to see the nail go into Kerry's coffin.

[ September 01, 2004, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: WmLambert ]

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Snowden
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quote:
I defy you to name me one single missionary that gave anyone a smallpox-infected blanket?
Just as nobody here, I believe, fought in WWII, but it's part of who we are as Americans. I think that this a foundational block we come to when we talk about who we are. In some way, as long as we expound the virtues of our fathers, we must deal with the sins. If the nation has held the same commitment to the same ideals for so long, what is it about us that allows those ideals to be trespassed. How is it the case that we do it, and how many of those ideals do we abide by and how much do we speak because they sound pretty?

[ September 01, 2004, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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Daruma28
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Snowden, I think Mrs. Bush said it best last night in reference to your statement...

"Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals — yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us, and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work."

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RickyB
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Pete, you wanna deny that episode in history, you go right ahead.

I wasn't smearing you or any other American, and I'm sure you and Card and many others did wonderful things as missionaries.

But "We as a society" don't send out missionaries, and even if you uinsist on calling it that, this wouldn't be what makes us unique in any way, since many other nations produce missionaries as well.

Your subsection of society sends out missionaries, and that's your right. "We as a society" send the peace corps. THAT I'm a part of. THAT is done with my money and my name.

As for Mandela, what has he said that's so dotty?

And as for working with Apartheid - first of all, the US knows perfectly well how to enforce a boycott on its citizens when it wants to (Cuba, anyone?). Second, I don't know for sure about the US, but Israel was surreptitiously doing A LOT of business with the evil apartheid regime, mostly military commerce. One of the most shameful deeds of my country. If I were South African, I'd begrudge Israel and take the Palestinians' side too.

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stayne
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quote:
I just kept assuming he was going to end it with, "Then...you are a redneck."
How about:

"...you might be a redneck."
[Wink]

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canadian
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Smallpox infected blankets? My great great great grandmother got some of those. Many people in her tribe died. Thankfully she survived.

If you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk.

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stayne
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quote:
Doesn't have to be that...just proof that there were no Russian roadblocks anywhere near where he lived.
Well, if a couple hundred Austrian's show up saying so, I'll have to wonder. [Wink]

quote:
Look, obviously the paeans to the glory and hope of America are things we can all agree on. That's just the point - we (left, democrats) say "we have better solutions". Republicans seems to prefer saying "we have better intentions". It's a bully kind of thing to say - not "you're going about it the wrong way" but "you don't WANT the things that good people want".
Now if only the Dems would subscribe to this, and they stayed off the gun control thing, they might get my vote sometime. You really can't walk away from that, Ricky. The Dem leaders have levelled some really vicious charges against Bush and the Repubs in general, especially since 2000. Bush stole the election, Bush made/let 911 happen, Repubs are racists, Bush is a war criminal, the list goes on and on. And we expect the kooks on both sides to talk this sort of nonsense (Black Helicopters!), but these are things said by elected officials, by serious candidates, etc. Motes and beams, my friend.

quote:
In the DNC people like Barack Obama were constantly making this point - that we all want pretty much the same things, and just differ on how to get them. I find that to be a less offensive way of stating differences.
I would like to see Obama's methods taken up by the Dems. I really dislike not having a choice about whom I vote for, but I can simply never stand with the Dems until they begin acting like statesmen again. They have, to me, become the party that cried wolf. I don't take their claims seriously anymore, because they try to claim racism, or homphobia, or classism, or some other sort of melevolent motive in _every_ disagreement they have. I can't think of a single issue on the table where the Dems don't accuse the Repubs of having it in for women or minorities or immigrants or working people. It's never just a "We disagree, we have a better solution, and this is why." I have just tuned them out since the first Clinton term.
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tshaw
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I had the impression that he was making the charge that smallpox infected blankets were purposely sent out. It was always my understanding that smallpox killed a lot of Native Americans, but that it was not an intentional thing. They didn't even know what caused smallpox back then, did they?
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TomDavidson
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"I can simply never stand with the Dems until they begin acting like statesmen again."

But you don't apply the same standard to the Republicans? That's a bit of a raw deal, innit?

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RickyB
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OK, OK, the smallpox comment has obviously rubbed some people the wrong way, for which I apologize. I just meant that we as a country do not "send out missionaries", and that countries who do, as countries, send out missionaries have usually done so as part of an imperialist agenda with awful consequences.

tshaw - at first the outbreak of smallpox in central America was unintentional - just the antibodies in Europeans' bodies causing havoc among an uninoculated populace. However, the conquistadores soon got wise and started doing it on purpose via the missionaries who brought blankets to the natives.

stayne - you really gotta stop equating every wild eyed radical with the Democratic leadership. You wanna show me which Dem leader accused Bush of making or letting 9/11 happen? (and no, that he didn't prioritize anti-terror highly enough is not that. that's legitimate criticism of policy). That he's a war criminal? And what, the Repubs don't do similar things? Make inciteful accusations? Please. You like Repubvlican policies better? Fine. But don't tell me you vote for them because they fight fairer. Nothing any elected Demmocratic official has ever said about Bush even comes close to the witch hunt against Clinton. Was that OK because you didn't like him?

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maniacal_engineer
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michael moore sat next to pres carter, where is the comparably wild eyed right winger sitting in a position of comparable prominence at the RNC?
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
michael moore sat next to pres carter, where is the comparably wild eyed right winger sitting in a position of comparable prominence at the RNC?
Zell Miller gave the keynote address, but I guess he was standing. [Wink]
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TomDavidson
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"michael moore sat next to pres carter"

I can do you one better: I actually touched Ronald Reagan. Clearly, Reagan's a foaming liberal. *rolls eyes*

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Dan Allen
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quote:
Ricky: You wanna show me which Dem leader accused Bush of making or letting 9/11 happen?
Howard Dean: "I don't know. There are many theories about it. The most interesting theory that I've heard so far -- which is nothing more than a theory, it can't be proved -- is that he was warned ahead of time by the Saudis. Now who knows what the real situation is?"
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TomDavidson
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That one's pretty weak, Dan. Can you do better?
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Dan Allen
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Well, McKinney certainly did, but I guess she doesn't qualify as "a leader" anymore, now does she?
Or are you trying to claim that Dean is no longer a "leader" either?

IIRC Edwards has also made some similar comments, but I don't have time to dig for 'em...

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TomDavidson
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I'm claiming, rather, that the statement itself is a long way from accusing Bush of making or letting 9/11 happen.
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Van Aaron
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So it's not an accusation if someone says that it's an "interesting theory" that Bill Clinton had Vince Foster murdered, although they can't prove it?
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RickyB
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It is weak as far as "accusations" go, but Dean shouldn't have said it.
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maniacal_engineer
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moore sat with carter in carter's box at the DNC. that is a position of honor. A friend of mine threw up on agnew's shoes, but it signifies nothing, because it happened when she was a kid going through a reception line, and not at a drunken party.
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stayne
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quote:
stayne - you really gotta stop equating every wild eyed radical with the Democratic leadership. You wanna show me which Dem leader accused Bush of making or letting 9/11 happen? (and no, that he didn't prioritize anti-terror highly enough is not that. that's legitimate criticism of policy).
Dean floated it as a trial balloon.

quote:
That he's a war criminal?
Ted Keneddy accused him of making war on false pretenses. Gore accused him of betraying the country.

Several of the Dem leadership have lent Micheal Moore quite a bit of legitimacy. Wasn't Pelosi and some others at the opening? You dont see Repubs hanging out with Michael Savage.

quote:
And what, the Repubs don't do similar things? Make inciteful accusations? Please.
I do not recall hearing Repub leaders doing these sorts of things. I hear a lot of pundits and freeper types, and thats pretty much like the democrat underground types. Perhaps there have been some incidences I missed, and I would be happy to discuss them, if you can point them out. I am speaking purely from personal perception. It's really al either of us has, you know. That's the point of open discussion.

I hear Reps often say the Dems are fools, the Dems are stupid and wrong, but not _evil_, not that they are actively trying to damage the country. That's something best left to the kooks and cranks. I think it is perfectly okay to say your opposition are stupid and wrong. I think it is unacceptable to accuse your opponents of malice, unless you have some really damning proof (i.e. something even partisans, if they are honest, can't ignore.)

quote:
You like Repubvlican policies better? Fine.
I like _some_ better. Some, I prefer the Dems. As I mentioned before, I supported Clinton in his first term. He did not follow through with some things that mattered to me, however, and I did not like the way he did business, so I voted against him in 96. Not that it mattered. I pretty much had no dog in the hunt, because Dole sold out on one of my big issues (gun rights).

quote:
But don't tell me you vote for them because they fight fairer. Nothing any elected Demmocratic official has ever said about Bush even comes close to the witch hunt against Clinton. Was that OK because you didn't like him?
Clinton screwed the pooch, dude. You know it, and I know it. I really don't think it should have come to what it did, though. They should never have allowed a civil case against a sitting president. A retarded monkey could have predicted it would end badly. But they did, and he was obliged to obey the law, just like you or me. I was really disapointed that he was so damned foolish as to lie, when the truth would have been nothing. I certainly did not give a crap about who he was screwing. I gave a crap that, when his ass was in a crack, he lied to the court. He abandoned his duty to enforce the law. All he had to do was use his strengths, his marvelous charisma, tell us he screwed up, and all would have been forgiven. He could have, even after lying to the court, at least showed the strength of his convictions by pardoning others who were being punished for the same crime he comitted, showing us he believed the law was truly wrong. That would have been the separation of powers in action, actively competing for the best for the country. But he didn't. He just thought _he_ should be able to do it, and that's about as un-american as it gets in my mind, as malfesant as a president can be. It was a damning fatal flaw in an otherwise excellant politician, IMO. He let slip that he expected to be treated as a king. That, I could not overlook. I absolutely supported his impeachment.

I am consistant on this. I _hate_ the War on Drugs. It is, save for slevery, the most onerous, evil policy our nation has ever embarked upon. And yet, it is the law. If he Drug tzar got busted for having a doob, I would want him punished to the limits of the law, despite the fact that I don't think the law is right. We must _never_ allow our leaders to exempt themselves from the laws they enforce upon us. They must not be permitted to pass laws that laws that they themselves are unwilling to live by. If they, with their power, cannot live within the law, and think it is unfair, then they should change to law, or refuse to enforce it. We _must_ demand that our leaders adhere to the American ideal that all men are equal before the law, including the lawmakers and the law enforcers.

That being said, I haven't heard Clinton spouting the sort of hateful rhetoric that some other prominent Dems have taken up. That speaks well of him, IMO.

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TomDavidson
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"I hear Reps often say the Dems are fools, the Dems are stupid and wrong, but not _evil_, not that they are actively trying to damage the country."

You're aware of the existence of Ann Coulter, right?

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jouissance
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Arnold gave a very nice speech. Too bad IF he justified it using lies. There can be NO DOUBT- his communist run birthplace had communist tanks (weapons of less-than-mass destruction) and the conserva-socialists are evildoers.

Ironic that the government he was criticizing was run by conservatives... is this true? I defer to the history buffs and european history scholars for verification.

if the communists are bad and iraq needs an enema, why lie and mislead- why not lay it out honest?

From CNN.COM

Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."

No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state.

"It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.

Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.

The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted.

"Let me tell you this: As a boy, I lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in Vienna -- and honestly, I never saw a Russian tank there," retiree Franz Nitsch said Friday. "He said it all on purpose -- and that's bad."

In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence.

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.

What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists as well as the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.

Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist.

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musket
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Amusing to speculate that if Orrin Hatch is serious about trying to get rid of the requirement that a US President be US-born, and gets his way, Demolition Man might just become the most prescient movie in Hollywood history.
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WarrsawPact
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[shudder]
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jouissance
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some of the sting cd singles from demolition man are some of sting's best live recordings...
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