Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » As long as its for a good cause

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!    
Author Topic: As long as its for a good cause
ATW
Member
Member # 1690

 - posted      Profile for ATW   Email ATW   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/09/05/wosse705.xml

An extremist Islamic cleric based in Britain said yesterday that he would support hostage-taking at British schools if carried out by terrorists with a just cause.

Omar Bakri Mohammed, the spiritual leader of the extremist sect al-Muhajiroun, said that holding women and children hostage would be a reasonable course of action for a Muslim who has suffered under British rule.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Mr Mohammed said: "If an Iraqi Muslim carried out an attack like that in Britain, it would be justified because Britain has carried out acts of terrorism in Iraq.

"As long as the Iraqi did not deliberately kill women and children, and they were killed in the crossfire, that would be okay."

Mr Mohammed, 44, who lives in Edmonton, north London, but is originally from Syria, also claimed that the Chechen rebels were not responsible for the deaths of more than 350 people - at least half of them children - who are so far known to have died in Beslan.

"The Mujahideen [Chechen rebels] would not have wanted to kill those people, because it is strictly forbidden as a Muslim to deliberately kill women and children. It is the fault of the Russians," he said.

The father of seven came to Britain in 1985 after being deported from Saudi Arabia because of his membership of a banned group. He has since been given leave by the Home Office to remain in Britain for five years but the Government is reviewing his status.

He gave an interview yesterday to promote a "celebratory" conference in London next Saturday to commemorate the third anniversary of the September 11 attacks.

Andrew Dismore, the Labour MP for Hendon, was infuriated by Mr Mohammed's comments. "That sounds to me like incitement and I will report him to Scotland Yard," he said. "It is an insult to most moderate Muslims, who are sick of people like this claiming to represent them."

Posts: 575 | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
noah
Member
Member # 884

 - posted      Profile for noah   Email noah   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, the ends now justify the means?

Yes, they didn't kill the hostages themselves, but they knew that they were putting the hostages into a situation where they were likely to die. That's like tieing a 10 lb weight to someone's foot and throwing them in the river. They might die, and they might not if they happen to be an Olympic-class swimmer. But their lack of swimming ability does not absolve you from murder.

Posts: 268 | Registered: Feb 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zyne
Member
Member # 117

 - posted      Profile for Zyne   Email Zyne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An entirely rational position. The ends do not, ever, justify the means (unless you're an american right winger).

I don't see how this is any different than the high-speed chase that occurs in one or more American cities every day. The cops know that someone is more likely to get killed if they chase but they do so anyway. They just don't care. Correcting the wrong, as it were, is more important than speculative harm.

Posts: 4003 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kelcimer
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I thought procedure has been changed to just follow the vehicle via helicopter and not engage recklessly.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
towellman
Member
Member # 1462

 - posted      Profile for towellman   Email towellman   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow, at least such short-sightedness is consistent in your posts. Take your point a few steps further..what's the point of cops carrying guns if they're likely to hurt innocent bystanders? If they can't enforce laws what's they point of cops? If laws can't be enforced what's the point of having laws?

The difference between police hurting people and terrorists murdering women and children is that as members of society we empower the police (with weapons and fast cars with sirens) to enforce the laws we have made and aggreed to live by. So you really believe that a stable and productive society governed by enforced laws is not an end that's worth acheiving if innocents are going to get hurt sometimes?

I hope you're good at drawing within the lines, because I see a bright future putting A's inside circles ahead for you.

(Please tell me I misunderstood your last post, please)

Posts: 220 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Zyne
Member
Member # 117

 - posted      Profile for Zyne   Email Zyne   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
kelcimer says:

quote:
I thought procedure has been changed to just follow the vehicle via helicopter and not engage recklessly.
It varies place to place, at the city, county or state level. Here in Houston, we still operate as: Shoot first, shoot later, shoot some more...and drive until you can get to a good place to carry out these instructions.

towellman says:

quote:
...what's the point of cops carrying guns if they're likely to hurt innocent bystanders? If they can't enforce laws what's they point of cops? If laws can't be enforced what's the point of having laws?
(can't tell if it's me you're talking to or noah)

Cops solve crimes, they don't prevent them; they solve them so that offenders may have justice done upon them.

Chasing suspects doesn't stop crimes, it only solves them--they did the bad thing before they started running.

Regardless, I'd rather cops not carry guns. I'd rather nobody carry guns.

Posts: 4003 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kelcimer
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess you could say we are in a transitional phase as the helicopter thing gains popularity.
Better then nothin' eh?

[ September 05, 2004, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: kelcimer ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't see how this is any different than the high-speed chase that occurs in one or more American cities every day.
Do you see the difference between premeditated murder, and reckless endagerment of human life?


quote:
The cops know that someone is more likely to get killed if they chase but they do so anyway. They just don't care.
I don't think you have the evidence to say that they "just don't care," period. I'd say rather that they don't care enough.

What the cleric has said is sedition: Justifying violence against the government. England should expell the son of a bitch, and the US should do the same with similar rogue clerics that justify acts of terror.

If a Christian religious leader had publically expressed support for the bombings of abortion clinics, leftists would be falling over themselves calling for legal repercussions. But the lefties will justify this sort of horrific promotion of terror, when it comes from non-Christians.

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Most moderates and leftists will use ends to justify some means. And what you said on a recent thread blaming Bush for the violent behavior of anarchists and other lefties, was indistinguishable from justifying the means.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jouissance
Member
Member # 784

 - posted      Profile for jouissance   Email jouissance       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"But the lefties will justify this sort of horrific promotion of terror, when it comes from non-Christians."

Pete- when you angered OPL on another thread- you said 'some' lefties. just wanted to point out that here you claim all of them would justi...

have any much less all 'lefties' said 'rock on Omar'? 'while you celebrate the towers descruction sing the praises of those who slaughter russian (hopefully all christisn) children'?

regardless it sounds like Andrew Dismore did the right thing since the comments came from a community leader (if this guy is a cleric) - charging incitement.

Posts: 359 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1