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Author Topic: Goodbye
Redskullvw
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Kerry just gave a very classy, and statesman like speech. Maybe his supports should listen to it and re read transcripts of it.

Politus... you have a short memory if you forget Arafat and the PLO has killed far more than OBL's triple play in the USA. As for this being a religious war, the evidence is profoundly against it being so.

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stayne
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quote:
"The hate filled, sneering, self-important pose is all too common on the left."

Sneering self-importance seems pretty common on the right, too.

Perhaps you should look again, then, from an unbiased persepective. What does it take to convince kool aid drinkers that something is _sick and wrong_ in the Democrat Party? How many defeats does it take before people snap out of the delusion and recognize they where whipped because they screwed up?

It's imopossible to fix things if you can't admit something is wrong. _Your_ method would see the Dems continue down the headlong slope to party disintegration. Looking for an opening in the majors, there, Tom? [Wink]

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meworkingman
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I know that Ev has said that he isn't interested in discussing his assertions but I feel I must respond; maybe others are willing to discus them.

quote:

1) We've proven that we aren't interested in forging a world wide alliance of democracies towards the ends of containing war and spreading liberal democracy.

It's interesting that war wasn't contained during the Clinton administration. That aside, how many new democracies did we help create during that last administration? How about during the last three administrations? During this one, we've helped create one in Afghanistan which, AFAIK has NEVER been a democracy, and one in Iraq which will hold elections in January.

Everyone is quite smug now when they contend that Afghanistan was a no-brainer, no big deal. However those same malaperts forget that before we invaded Afghanistan, they were invoking Kipling and reminding everyone that Afghanistan had succeeded in sending both the English and Russians packing with their tails between their legs. Also, some were calling that excursion a "quagmire" during its second week. We, however, saw it through and for our efforts we now have a pro-west democracy in Afghanistan.

Contrary to what you believe, I think that what we've proven is that we aren't interested in allowing corrupt "allies" to stand in our way when we believe that we need to take action to protect ourselves and promote democracy.

quote:

2) We've proven we're comfortable with our role as aggressor nation, and, hence, we've proven that we're comfortable as a nation with imperial goals.

Perhaps you need to look up the definition of "imperial." In the words of Inigo Montoya, "I don't think that word means what you think it means." Name one other nation, in the history of the entire world, that rebuilds its vanquished foes and then leaves when asked to. Look what happened when word leaked that Pres. Bush wanted to move our military out of Germany. Imperial? Please.

quote:

3) We're comfortable with the idea that religion should be public, and that non-christians aren't REALLY welcome as equals.

6) We're comfortable with the concept that private life shouldn't be private

???????????

quote:

4) We're comfortable voting our hatreds and fears, both foreign and domestic.

Hatreds? Who is it that constantly spews hateful rhetoric? Not us. Fears? Those fears are genuine and fitting. 9/11 showed that rational fear of the really hateful elements in this world is necessary.

quote:

5) We're comfortable screwing over people who need help, while we help out those who need none

Sorry, I can't fathom what in the world you might be ranting about here.

quote:

7) We value illusionary safety more then our freedoms.

I've asked this before, but never been answered, so I'll ask again. Would you mind itemizing those "lost" freedoms? I could list a couple but they weren't taken by Pres. Bush or his administration.

quote:

I'm not proud to be an american, today. The single biggest reason for this is, we re-elected a president who invaded a nation that had not attacked us, nor attacked our allies, nor had any plans to do so.

First off, I would commend you for your abilities to channel Saddam Hussein. It's quite amazing that you know, for certain, that he had no plans to attack us or facilitate such an attack. That aside, maybe you should be more ashamed of your inability to remember recent history. Iraq invaded Kuwait. The hostilities didn't cease after we expelled Hussein from Kuwait (remember the no-fly zone and our war planes attacking anti-aircraft batteries?). Under the terms of the cease-fire, Hussein was obliged to prove that he was dismantling his WMD's. Instead of complying with his obligations, Hussein chose to drag his feet. In this post-9/11 world we couldn't allow that to happen. You may feel bad about this, but most of us don't.

In response to the rest of your self-pittying post, I might remind you that the door to this country is always open for anyone who wants to leave. However, instead of taking that route, you might find it more useful to buck up and try to persuade more people to your point of view instead of crying in your soup.

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jim beam
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quote:
Originally posted by Politius:
Jim, you don't even LIVE in the united states, according to your profile. Secondly, i wouldn't go so far to say that: i would say that Bin Ladin already HAS become the next arafat: 9/11 definitely was WORSE than any single act Arafat has conjured up in his demented little head. People like 'that' which is not even CLEAR what 'that' is, will ALWAYS exist. Take a look around you, Jim, a CLEAR look around you: the church STILL has push and pull on today's world: people still fight 'holy wars' and nothing has really changed today other than the level of technology.

I'm still a US citizen who exercises his privilege to vote.

What I mean by "people like that" is the the individual who uses his or her gift of human life to wantonly deprive the lives of others for their "jihad".
When Bin Laden orchestrated and fulfilled the 9/11 attack he forced the world to take offensive action. Forced to seek the extinction of the jihadist. The re-election of GWB sends out a message to the world that policies of terrorist appeasement are no longer acceptable. That the situation really is indeed "black and white". The principles of good and evil do in fact exist. The jihadist is in fact evil. That needs to be the unequivocal fact of all our lives.
I know this rankles many an intellectual who like to toy with this issue. What we need to realize is while we intellectually toy with this idea the jihadist is strapping a claymore to his/her chest and looking for a crowded bus.
"People like" Bin laden, Arafat, Saddam and some others celebrate the behavior. The world/US mandate is for an accounting for this behavior.

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ben5
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Stayne- You understand that this election was close right?
and what is Sick and Wrong with the Democratic party?
And while we may be a 48% minority for beliving in what is right,that's not going to make us give up on America

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WarrsawPact
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Everard - This is entirely to you.

A little while back you left because you believed that you could not see the other side's point of view. You could not bring yourself to believe that men of good will could want Bush re-elected.
We all said you shouldn't leave, that we valued your contribution.

But you came back.
And you continued to post, and indeed you continued to contribute. Note how far I strayed from Bush when you came back. There are some of us who will simply never be reached by the constant whining and bickering of a certain contingent of posters here on Ornery. But you by and large post reasonable, respectful posts -- to me, at very least -- and to that I am quite receptive.

It's no good for you or anyone else to simply give up on all of us. Accountability without any unnecessary venom is what keeps people honest. It serves us all to have reasoned disagreement.

So here's to you coming back. I'm confident you'll make the right decision after some time cooling off, as you realize this country has done far worse in its day and still survived -- because after all is said and done, voices of reason stay steady, and it is the *responsibility* of those not in power to be the watchdogs.

[ November 03, 2004, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

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potemkyn
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Ev,

I think you might have over-reacted a bit, but I'd hate to see you leave now. Only in adversity is the character of man known. So stop feeling sorry for yourself and America, and get back to doing what you do really well. You raise some really crucial issues about the next four years, and I'd like to help figure them out. I enjoy your well thoughout positions, even if they do somethimes conflict with my own.

Potemkyn

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John L
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Where's the smiley with the violen? Oh, well I can't get it to work. Sorry Ev, but I had a tune all picked out for you.

[ November 04, 2004, 12:11 AM: Message edited by: John L ]

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Everard
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I don't mind discussing politics, I simply can't do it in a
format where there are Bush supporters, right now.

I think there is a fundamental disconnect in America right
now. Not only do Bush Supporters and Kerry supporters see
different facts...but we seem to be looking at the world in an
entirely different way. Its not that I think Bush supporters
are people of ill will, but I can't understand how a person of
good will could vote for Bush. I can't put myself into a frame
of mind where I can see Bush as good for the country, and good
for the world. Apparently, 58 million americans CAN do so, and
I KNOW that those people aren't evil. But they just have a
fundamentally different idea of what it means to be american,
and it happens to show itself in ways that I think destroy
whats good about america, and in ways that I think are
immoral. But I KNOW thse are good people, for the most part.
People like Msquared prove that.

I can't be on ornery right now. I'm too shaken up by what
happened. I honestly believe re-electing Bush will wreck
everything that I view as valuable about america, and there's
nothing that orneryites can do to show me that I'm wrong...
Bush has to show that, by being a statesman, and remembering
he doesn't govern only those who vote for him, but he governs
ALL americans, whether we be in Massachusetts, New York,
Wyoming, or Texas. Hopefully, I will be able to engage in
diologue before Bush shows signs of being a good president,
because I don't think he will, and I believe diologue is
fundamental to the strength of america.

Ultimately, thats why I'm not on ornery. Right now, I can't
engage in constructive diologue with our conservative members,
as I'm more likely to scream at them for what I believe they
have done to this country, then I am to argue ideas.

I may periodically post essays, but its highly doubtful I will
engage ... at least for a month or two.

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mantikor
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What a crock of maudlin drivel. I must say - that is exactly the kind of reaction I had hoped to see from Kerry's supporters. Thank you so much. It really makes this thing taste so much sweeter.
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DonaldD
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go back to Yahoo! mantikor - that seems more like your level of discourse. Barring that, read up on the Ornery rules before crapping on the carpets again.
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Politius
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Is this what Ornery is all about? Creating a name so that we can yell and **** on each other because of political affiliation?!! I'll tell you, i get along FINE with all the conservatives around here even though i think every one of you can't see the big picture of how much **** you've pulled us in. I'll tell you, and OrneryMod will back me up (i hope LOL) that i DEFINITELY don't want people leaving here because this election pisses the **** out of them. I think that we all have to be respectful of other people's opinions, other people's FAMILIES, and knocking the psychological underpants off a republican OR democrat OR whatever else you affiliate yourself with doesn't prove anything. Mantikor, if you want to go make brash and unbacked statements like this that just provoke anger, go find another forum.
BTW No offense intended Everard, i fully respect your decision to leave.

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Godot
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I, personally, agree with most of Everard's statement. And I feel the disconnect most strongly when it comes to Iraq.

Submitted for your approval (or not, as the case may be) is a snip from a Harris poll in October or 2004.

"Large majorities of the public accept many of the president’s positions:
...
63 percent believe that Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, was a serious threat to U.S. security.
62 percent believe that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda (a claim which Vice President Cheney has made more than President Bush).
More surprising perhaps are the large numbers (albeit not majorities) who believe claims which the president has not made, and which virtually no experts believe to be true:

41 percent believe that Saddam Hussein helped plan and support the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001.
38 percent believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded.
37 percent actually believe that several of the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11 were Iraqis."

Not to berate my fellow Americans, but some of our citizenry certainly seem to be seriously deluded. And that, my friends, is what I believe to be the central deciding factor in this presidential election.

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mantikor
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Godot, excuse me, I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying.

It seems to me that you are saying that anyone who does not agree with you is seriously deluded. Is that a correct understanding of your position?

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javelin
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Everard - I look forward to the day when we can welcome you back. I hope to hear the details of how you get to the point where you can return to us, and be enriched by your experiences. Thanks for the contributions you have made to my understanding of the world, and the people around me.
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Godot
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quote:
Originally posted by mantikor:
Godot, excuse me, I just want to make sure that I understand what you are saying.

It seems to me that you are saying that anyone who does not agree with you is seriously deluded. Is that a correct understanding of your position?

No. Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

I believe that the rather large number of people who believe things about Iraq that are not true are deluded in those beliefs. I'm sure there are things that I believe (through anecdotal internalization, or for whatever reason) that are in contrast to the facts. And in those beliefs, I would be deluded.

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stayne
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quote:
Stayne- You understand that this election was close right?
Perhaps you should go back to your lurking if you choose to introduce yourself to me with a snarky comment.

quote:
and what is Sick and Wrong with the Democratic party?
It's _losing_, of course! Repeatedly! You don't perceive that as a problem?

quote:
And while we may be a 48% minority for beliving in what is right,that's not going to make us give up on America
Dear god, spare us from true believers. This is a forum for reasoned debate, not for claiming how one will stand by his beliefs. That you are convinced is the _buy in_. Telling us how convinced you are is a waste of time. Tell me _why_.

I'm working on my own essay that I'll put up later expanding on what I think the sickness is.

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kidzmom
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What continues to amaze me here (and gee, I've only been on this forum since late September) is the perpetuation of a behavior I've noted in many people of the "liberal persuasion", be they professional politicians, entertainers, academes, or other members of the populace at large, including folks on this board. While I may cringe at the rudeness, impatience, gloating, or whatever (c'mon Mantikor, play nice!)sometimes exhibited by certain conservatives around here, it seems to me that conservatives spend a lot less time impugning the mental capacity, psychological health, and moral motivations of the liberals than vice versa. As someone who generally espouses what would be considered a conservative viewpoint, and lives a "conservative" or traditional lifestyle, I am increasingly offended by the postings of some people here. I AM NOT STUPID, UNINFORMED, DELUSIONAL, DESTRUCTIVE, MORALLY BLIND, OR TOTALLY SELF-SERVING; I AM NOT A BIGOT, RACIST, OR ANYTHING "PHOBE", simply because I disagree with you! *deep breath* I have lived through liberal, democrat-led administrations whose actions and policies seemed to me to confound common sense, undermine our national interests, and affront my sense of ethics and morality. Guess what? I did my dead-level best to suck it up, do what I could to effect changes I perceived as being good and right (no pun intended), treat those on the "other side" with courtesy (at the very least--friendship, when possible), and just live my life. I cannot understand why those whose views differ from mine can't seem to reciprocate! In my brief time here, I have done my utmost to make sure that, even when being adamant, I am polite, and have apologized more than once just on the chance I have inadvertantly offended or misread someone. In return, I have had had both my motives and my intelligence slammed (personally, not just generally), been ignored (even when trying to be polite), and been told "so what?" when trying to express myself. When conservatives give into discourtesy, or to sweeping over-generalizations, they are called on it (often by other conservatives). Why can't the same be true, in return?
Guess what, Everard? rewrite your last post, inserting "Kerry" for "Bush", and you'd basically have my viewpoint. I'm sorry you feel marginalized, but one portion or the other of the population will ALWAYS feel that way. Learn to work with it, as many of us have! You have the brains, and I think you have the backbone--find them and use them! This is an exhortation and challenge from someone who, according to you, SHOULD be happier to see you slink off into the sunset, never to return! If Kerry had won, would you be returning the favor?
Godot--"Not to berate my fellow Americans, but some of our citizenry certainly seem to be seriously deluded..." You're kidding, right? I'm not supposed to feel "berated", or offended by that? THAT is exactly the sort of statement which perpetuates and widens the divide!
I'm not trying to pick on you two, but your last posts are the closest ones to exhibit some of thing things I'm concerned about. Can we please have a little more CIVIL discourse, and less "bashing"? You think that just MIGHT do more to foster a working relationship, and a better "neighborhood"?

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Redskullvw
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kidzmom

Good thoughts. And I agree in many respects.

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Godot
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kidzmom,

I don't consider myself to have violated any definition of "civilized discourse".

I have never written that anyone is "STUPID, UNINFORMED, DELUSIONAL, ..., MORALLY BLIND, OR TOTALLY SELF-SERVING; BIGOT, RACIST, OR ANYTHING "PHOBE".

NOTE: I did leave the word “destructive” out from your original quote because I HAVE used “destructive”, or words to that effect, to describe some of Bush’s policies (although not in the context of this thread).

I don’t believe I have ever used the word, “delusional” in ANY of my posts. In my last two posts, I did write that I believe some of our citizenry are deluded about certain beliefs but NOT that they were delusional (I am well aware of the distinction).

Perhaps I’m just being thin-skinned, but I am deeply offended by your post.

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kidzmom
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Godot--
I don't believe I said (or anywhere indicated) that you, specifically, had written anything--except that which I quoted directly from your post.Your full statement was,
"Not to berate my fellow Americans, but some of our citizenry certainly seem to be seriously deluded. And that, my friends, is what I believe to be the central deciding factor in this presidential election."
I used this as an example of something I, as a part of the majority who re-elected President Bush, find offensive. How is it that you are offended by a post which only identifies you by a direct quote, and in which I say NOTHING about you of a personal nature? Am I not allowed to respond to your posts? Precisely what offended you?

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Politius
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chill out guys. This is not a forum where we yell about ettiquete (eek! spelling!) or insulting comments. Go learn that at home or better yet, email each other. Kidzmom, i'm not saying that you shouldn't give godot some lessons on proper manners but let's not eat up thread-space on this! LOL
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kidzmom
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Excuse me, Politius, if I failed to make myself clear. I'm not talking about "etiquette" (correct sp.-can't help it, I'm a teacher at heart! [Wink] ), I'm speaking of courtesy, which may be related, but is a different issue in this case, and one I feel is quite pertinent. We can have intelligent, incisive, and thought-provoking discourse without paying much attention to etiquette. Without common courtesy, however, things quickly descend to the lowest common denominator. I'd hate to see that happen here, and I THOUGHT it was acceptable for me to express my views. Maybe I was mistaken. At any rate, I'm feeling rather "raw" and "bashed" right now.
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DonaldD
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kidzmom, are you one of those 41%, 38% or 37% listed in Godot's post? If not, he wasn't referring to you. I didn't include the 62% and 63% because Godot sort of equivocates on those.

Godot, your first set of stats (63% and 62%) are debatable enough that they shouldn't have been included as suggesting de facto "deludedness" (note I did not say delusion.)

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Godot
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kidzmom,

Thanks for responding to my last post. And you want to know why I was offended. Good enough.

You listed me as an "example" of some of the things you're concerned about. Presumably, those "things" were those which you railed against in your post (i.e. that I was guilty of those things). Hence my feeling offended.

At the very least you accuse of being a "basher" and unable to hold civil discourse. Oh, that's right, I sorry, I am only an example of those things not someone you are actually accusing of doing them.

As I said, perhaps I'm thin-skinned or maybe I’m jumping down your throat for misunderstanding your post.

Now to address your specific concerns with my post:

quote:
Originally posted by kidzmom:
Godot--
I used this as an example of something I, as a part of the majority who re-elected President Bush, find offensive.

I quoted some poll numbers which seem to show to me that many people in our country believe things that are factually incorrect. I used the word deluded. It seems to fit. If you wish to dispute the deduction I made based on the polls numbers, fine, do so, but don’t hold me up as, essentially, a poster boy for someone who says those very offensive things you listed in your post.

Also, the poll was not (as far as I know) only given to Bush supporters. Therefore some of those uncivilized liberals you spoke of are probably in the deluded column. At least I'm an equal-opportunity offender.

Now, if anyone believes that Saddam planned the 9/11 attacks, they are free to do so, but until I see facts that corroborate that point of view I will call that person deluded with respect to that belief. Similarly, if someone believes that masturbation makes you go blind I would call them deluded as well, and my own mother might very well fall into that category. [Wink]

See. Lookit that. I used a smiley, I must be involved in civilized discourse. Hey! I’m cured. IT’S A MIRACLE!

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kidzmom
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DonaldD--
Since you asked politely [Big Grin] , let me see how I may best respond.
"63 percent believe that Iraq, under Saddam Hussein, was a serious threat to U.S. security."
Yes, perhaps not an imminent threat, but one with real potential. As for "serious"--any national leader capable of the documented atrocities attributable to Hussein & co. has my serious attention.

"62 percent believe that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda (a claim which Vice President Cheney has made more than President Bush)."
"Strong links"...I guess I'd have to have a clearer definition of that term. However, when I see pictures on the MSM of training camps used by Al Quaeda within the borders of Iraq, then I think it is reasonable to assume Hussein knew of their presence and approved of it.

"41 percent believe that Saddam Hussein helped plan and support the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11, 2001."
No, I haven't seen anything to make me take this one on faith. It wouldn't surprise me a bit though, if he (or some in his administration) had some knowledge of it, and I'd doubt they had any moral or ethical objections to it.

"38 percent believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded."
GIVE ME A BREAK--virtually everyone believed they had them! The Clintons, Kerry, Albright...the list of liberal (AND moderate, and conservative) US politicians who public stated this--both verbally and in writing--goes on and on!

"37 percent actually believe that several of the hijackers who attacked the U.S. on September 11 were Iraqis."
Nope, my understanding is they were mostly from Saudi Arabia originally, maybe with a few Syrians throw in for good measure.

So--do I qualify as "deluded", by Godot's definition? It sort of sounded like it to me, and I didn't appreciate it. (But I bet you figured that out! [Wink] )

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Godot
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quote:
Originally posted by DonaldD:
Godot, your first set of stats (63% and 62%) are debatable enough that they shouldn't have been included as suggesting de facto "deludedness" (note I did not say delusion.)

Donald, I agree with you. I probably shouldn't have included those first two in my original post at all because of the very subjective nature of what demonstrates a "serious" threat or a "strong" link to Al Qaeda.
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DonaldD
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thanks kidzmom [Smile] ... but just to clarify "38% believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction when the U.S. invaded."

Not "once believed" or "believed at the time". Do you still believe that Iraq had nukes and chemical munitions in spring 2003?

Personally, I do think there is room for debate on this one (reasonable people may disagree) but I would also agree that people who still believe this have been "deluded" [Wink]

As for the first 2 points - dunno - like I said, Godot equivocates on those 2 points. Godot? Deluded or not?

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kidzmom
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Godot--
Ohh-kay...you yourself have not personally and by name "bashed" me. I apologize if you felt I was accusing you of something unjustly. I do not believe that all of the polling statements you cited are demonstrably "factually incorrect"; at best, they might be defined as arguable. I rarely participate in polls, because I have very little faith in the methods and motives of those polling. By their very design, most polls I've seen are simplistic and prone to skewed answers, at best. If you truly do not believe or cannot understand that your statements might be construed as offensive to me, so be it. I guess I'll choose to believe you didn't realize you could be though of as rude or unfair.

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kidzmom
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You're more than welcome, Donald! [Smile] I will agree that there is room for doubt on that one; I firmly believe they had all sorts of "nasties" that are not there now, and I do believe it was reasonable (and prudent) to assume that Hussein had all sorts of things he could and might use against anyone, at any time. I also believe there may still be some remnants or small caches of chemical and/or biological weapons that are well-enough hidden that we'll never find them unless we are led there, or accidentally stumble over them.
'Scuse me, but my 4y.o. just brought me a handful of flowers, & I have to put them in water [Big Grin] awww...

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John L
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"Everard - I look forward to the day when we can welcome you back.-Javelin"

Pardon me, but when I left about seven months ago, I just 'up and left'. No solique or chest beating. In fact, I'm about through here again, and I will not give a 'classical' stage exit either.

What a bunch of BS!! EV, we love you and all your 'little c' communist daydreaming. Please come back. Pretty Please! [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

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Godot
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kidzmom, I'm not shining you on. Just busy at work right now.
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kidzmom
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S'o.k....I really ought to be doing something else! Like cleaning my kitchen...yechhh. Hey, at least we have clean laundry...unfolded, on my sofa, but clean! [Wink] I should also check on the kids' reading & writing lessons <sigh> . See, this is real life!
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Pete at Home
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quote:
"The hate filled, sneering, self-important pose is all too common on the left."

Sneering self-importance seems pretty common on the right, too.

Hey! Don't forget about us self-important folks in the center.

Humans are generally self-important, and the American culture encourages that like no other culture in history. No politics has a monopoly on self-importance.

Ev, I feel your pain, but I warned you this would happen. Now was all this worth it for you, just over the word "marriage"? Or are you still in denial that that is what cooked your goose in this election? *You* helped make this election what it was.

[ November 04, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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javelin
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Well, John L - welcome back. Why'd ya leave, and why are ya back? I look forward to hearing more from you.
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Lewkowski
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Hah I predicted it! He's back with "Essays" Just like I predicted the re-election of Bush. You guys should listen to me. [Smile]
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by John L:
"Everard - I look forward to the day when we can welcome you back.-Javelin"

Pardon me, but when I left about seven months ago, I just 'up and left'. No solique or chest beating. In fact, I'm about through here again, and I will not give a 'classical' stage exit either.

What a bunch of BS!! EV, we love you and all your 'little c' communist daydreaming. Please come back. Pretty Please! [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

heh.

Having been members of various message boards over the past four years (including serving as an admin on one and as a moderator on another) I've noticed this too. Their are three ways people stop coming to a particular message board: 1) They stop coming. That's it. 2) They get banned, come back under a new name, than get their IP banned. 3) They leave with a dramatic goodbye post and a whole slew of posters beg him or her not to go or to please come back.

Option three seems like the actions of a drama queen looking for reassurance that they will be missed and are valued by others.

lol

If you're reading this Ev, maybe you should just go post at Democratic Underground...they outright ban anyone that doesn't toe the liberal/progressive line, so you don't have to worry about dirtying your computer screen with the postings of insidious and nefarious conservatives hell bent on ruining the country. [Roll Eyes]

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OrneryMod
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Ok that is enough.

From the rules:

Personal attacks, mockery, or speculation about the motives of people posting here are not allowed, and such posts will be removed without notification. Repeated offenders will be banned from the site.

This is not going anywhere so I am going to lock it.

OrneryMod

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