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Author Topic: Voting Anomalies
OhPuhLeez
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http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=4175
quote:
Too many voting ’irregularities’ to be coincidence

Right now there is no hard proof, but the circumstantial evidence is a mile high. Looking at all of these ’irregularities’ it’s hard to imagine how one could conclude that this election was clean.

Click the link for, among other things, graphs showing exit polling data versus voting data.

http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html
quote:
According to the official election results posted on the Palm Beach County election website, 542,835 ballots were cast for a presidential candidate while only 454,427 voters turned out for the election (including absentee). This leaves a discrepancy of 88,408 votes cast for the presidential candidates.
...can it all just be coincidence?

:Puts on tinfoil helmet...waits for responses:


...edited to correct spelling and add another link...

[ November 05, 2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: OhPuhLeez ]

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WarrsawPact
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[ November 05, 2004, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

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OhPuhLeez
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Couldn't - they've exceeded their transfer...
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Tezcatlipoca
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http://www.glennbeck.com/news/05172002.shtml

Check this out too. [Wink]

{sorry for above post, Warrsaw forgot to log out when he was over at my house.)

Edit: Damn geocities. [Mad]

[ November 05, 2004, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

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Pete at Home
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No coincidence, and no conspiracy either. In Bush Sr. v. Clinton v. Perot, I did not enter a vote in the presidential race. I had a focking right to refuse to enter a vote for the president, and in 2000, some bastard election boards presumed to run through the ballots entering a president vote on the basis that the person had voted Democratic in the other races. So yes, the same thing happened in 2000 in Florida -- lots of people voted but did not mark a president. Then, the election boards pretended it was a problem with the punch cards. This time they didn't have that excuse, since they'd gone optical. Clue in: Some people don't see any candidate worth voting for.

That's a legitimate decision, and if anyone tries to write something into someone else's blank space, that person is even more of an election fraudster than the bastards here in Nevada that slashed the tires of 15 Republican party vans on the night before elections, to keep people from getting to the polls.

[ November 05, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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OhPuhLeez
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LOL - yeah, yeah, yeah...
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OhPuhLeez
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Pete - wow, that's crazy! And just plain wrong, no doubt about it.

Ugh.

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Anonymous24
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I don't think its beyond the Bush people, but there needs to be more evidence for a credible argument. I'm sure there are people examining everything they can.
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OhPuhLeez
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More...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=536&e=5&u=/ap/20041106/ap_on_el_pr/voting_problems

quote:
... Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites)'s 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct. Bush's total should have been recorded as 365.

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Slander Monkey
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Pete,

The second article says that more votes were cast than there were voters... I'm not sure if that was the one you were referring to, but it's a little harder to explain.

In any case, I agree with you about counting votes that aren't there -- I often don't vote on specific races that I don't know anything about, and I usually don't vote for uncontested candidates. Maybe ballots need to include an "abstain" option.

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ATW
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quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:
Pete - wow, that's crazy! And just plain wrong, no doubt about it.

Ugh.

Not voting for president is a valid choice. That was my plan until rather late in the campaign when Bush started talking about focusing on my issues, income tax reform and social security modernization.

Up until that point, I'd rejected all the third party candidates and was planning on not voting in the presidential race as a protest.

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OhPuhLeez
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ATW - not only did I NOT say it WASN'T a valid choice, I agreed with Pete. What happened with his vote was
quote:
just plain wrong, no doubt about it.

Ugh.


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OhPuhLeez
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More voting issues. There's a LOT more on the link, but don't want to quote the whole thing here...

http://www.ac.wwu.edu/~adamsb6/elections/

quote:
...Florida is reporting more votes in the presidential election than it is reporting citizens that turned out to vote. Adding all the presidential race votes reported by the Florida Department of State here yields a total of 7,588,422 votes. The Florida Department of State reports here that voter turnout totalled only 7,350,900. That's a difference of 237,522. 3.1% of Florida's presidential votes were in excess of the number of voters in the election. 380,952 votes separate the President and John Kerry in Florida.

If we disregard the votes cast on the Model 100s and the Optech 3P Eagles, the difference between Bush and Kerry drops to 124,514. The votes cast on the Model 100s and the Optech 3P Eagles in conjunction with votes that cannot be tied to voters may have elected George W. Bush...


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Van Aaron
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In the section you've quoted, there is a link for the sentence, "The Florida Department of State reports here that voter turnout totalled only 7,350,900." If you follow that link, you see total turnout stated as 7,622,037 - more than the total number of votes cast for president. It seems pretty likely that this person was using preliminary, inaccurate numbers (including a highly unlikely turnout figure of "0" for Hernando County). Even if these numbers had been accurate and showed there was something funny going on, the discrepancy primarily occurred in Palm Beach and Miami-Dade Counties, both of which are predominantly Democratic.

[ November 09, 2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Van Aaron ]

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Gary
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Who didn't see this coming? I think anyone who's followed politics over the last few years had to suspect this claim would be made (well not formally made yet but we can see the groundwork being laid for it). The left, unable to accept defeat at the polls, will somehow, someway find a a way to claim that Bush stole the election. They love this claim and simply cannot let it go.

They will run out numbers and random voting anomolies as "too coincidental" intent on building a flimsy circumstantial case that has, like any good lie, just enough truth in it to convince those that want to believe - and there are millions of those. Unable to accept the repudiation of their "great society", they cling to this last, desperate hope that fraud was the reason they lost.

Rest assured this is not the end game. As much as the left likes to wallow in the "Bush stole the election" mantra, this is merely the opening salvo to undermine the President and his policies leading to the ultimate goal of impeachment. It will be much easier to force down the public's throat when greased with the fallacy of illegitmacy.

Abu Ghraib will once again become fodder for the left and it's propaganda mills in mainstream media (CBS and NYT will no doubt run more stories on these before spring and I will be suprised if they wait until after the inaugaration). Unless they can dig something else up that is. I have no doubt Dan Rather and his crack production team are doing their utmost to find or manufacture the next great scandal.

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OhPuhLeez
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I've accepted defeat.

I'm interested in current events and reports from numerous areas discussing such things.

Pete - one of our own and certainly not a Kerry supporter - had a voting problem of his own in a prior election.

Not interested? Don't read it.

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TomDavidson
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While I'm hardly going to leap on this bandwagon, Gary, I must ask: how many questionable votes in excess of actual voter totals would you require before you acknowledge a substantial problem that would be worth investigation?
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Gary
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quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:
I've accepted defeat.

I understand that, I'm speaking about the left in general.
quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:

I'm interested in current events and reports from numerous areas discussing such things.

To what end? If you believe Kerry was genuinely defeated, then why the interest and why propogate it through such discussions?
quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:

Pete - one of our own and certainly not a Kerry supporter - had a voting problem of his own in a prior election.

Not interested? Don't read it.

I'm not sure how you go that impression I wasn't interested but anytime someone begins to build a case (not you specifically but the sources you link) that is clearly designed to be a partisan effort to destroy a president, I'm interested.
quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
...how many questionable votes in excess of actual voter totals would you require before you acknowledge a substantial problem that would be worth investigation?

Questions like this are traps in that whatever number is provided the voting irregularities will somehow magically be discovered to meet that number in much the same manner that Mary Mapes finally discovered those memos.

I don't have a problem with any investigation but that's not what is going on. This is a vote hunt. The desire is not to find any truth other than the one they want to create. There will be just enough evidence found to create the accusation and we will be back to the "seriousness of the charge rather than the nature of the evidence" meme that drove the forged memos at CBS and much of the Bush/ANG story.

Once enough votes are manufactured to create the illusion of illegitmacy, the impeachment talk will begin in earnest.

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TCB
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Gary said:
quote:
Who didn't see this coming? I think anyone who's followed politics over the last few years had to suspect this claim would be made (well not formally made yet but we can see the groundwork being laid for it). The left, unable to accept defeat at the polls, will somehow, someway find a a way to claim that Bush stole the election. They love this claim and simply cannot let it go.
I've heard many Republicans express surprise that Democrats didn't file lawsuits in hotly contested states after the election, and in some ways your post is an expression of that surprise ("It just hasn't happened yet.").

You might have your own explanations for this, but here's mine: Democrats aren't so unreasonable that they'll manufacture wrongdoings whenever it would be convenient for them to exist. We saw no evidence of irregularities, so we accepted the results of the election without legal challenges.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Gary -

Yes, Kerry has lost. However, the security, trustworthiness, and transparency of our electoral system is of huge importance!

As an example - I am not very trusting of computerzied voting machines that leave no paper trail. Just because the Presidential election is over is no reason for me to set aside my misgivings! To decide that 'since this election is over, it doesn't matter' is to not think into the future.

--Firedrake

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Jesse
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Why would anyone assume that the focus should lay only on irregularities that hurt a certain party?

We (federally, and at the state level) passed many laws in the last four years to try to improve our voting processes.

We, meaning state and federal agencies and the media, should be investigating how well these changes have worked.

It's not about any sour grapes, or accusations, or cries for re-counts and lawsuits. It's about making sure we have the best process we can possibly have.

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OhPuhLeez
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Thank you Fire and Jesse - well put.
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Gary
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You guys are thinking about an honest investigation but have you followed some of the links to people that are driving this vote hunt? The first one includes information from Democratic Underground (gimme a break!). The second one has been updated and shown that Palm Beach County is accurate after all. Even ABC ran story about this last night and made the case that these are nothing more than kook conspiracy theories. Although I'm sure Dan Rather is working on it ...

Virtually everyone of these sites works from the assumption that the exit polls were correct and the vote was wrong. Either that or they attempt to make the case that voting machines were tampered with by showing which ones favor Bush over Kerry but not relating them well, if at all, to the counties in which they were used. Little more than numerical sleight of hand. In none of these do they show an possible outcome that would overcome Bush's margin of victory.

There is no investigation to find out the accuracy of the voting machines or how things operated organizationally. There is a hunt on for votes, nothing more. Hopefully enough to create the myth that Bush & Co. stole the election and are thus illegitimate.

I don't have a problem with Secretaries of State or the Justice Dept or other election officials evaluating the processes or machines used. But that's not what's going on here.

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Gary
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Here's the ABC News report. An election analyst and Donna Brazile both dismiss claims of fraud. However, the interesting bit is this:
quote:
Off the record, many Democratic strategists dismiss such allegations, but they also know such resentment can be channeled for political use in the future.
And what political use will that be channeled into? Any guesses? Go ahead, shout it out when you know it: impeachment. The Democratic Pary leaders know it's a bogus claim but they will fan the flames of this so they can build up resentment and anger for future political use.

This should be a lesson to any conservative or Republican who thinks they can reach out to the left and bring the two sides together. Extend your hand to a party banking on resentment will only get it bitten off.

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TomDavidson
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Out of interest, Gary, how much did reaching out to Republicans benefit the Democrats just recently? [Smile]
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Gary
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
Out of interest, Gary, how much did reaching out to Republicans benefit the Democrats just recently? [Smile]

I'll have to let you know when they try it. [Razz]
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TomDavidson
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So do you believe the Democrats in Congress were not in fact unusually cooperative following 9/11 -- more cooperative, in fact, than most Democrats outside Congress would have wanted them to be?
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Gary
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How many days do you want to limit this to? Just 30 days after? A year? How far down do you want to cherry pick this? If that's what it's going to take to make your point, then I think you prove mine.
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Everard
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Well, since they were cooperative for about 1 1/2 years... I'd say that no cherry picking is necessary. It took the invasion of iraq to actually happen before democrats in congress actually got a spine. Go back and read op-ed pages up til about May of 2003, and you'll see that democratic supporters writing in those pages were wondering where teh spine of the democratic represenatitves was.

No, Democrats cooperated above and beyond the call of duty.

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Gary
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quote:
No, Democrats cooperated above and beyond the call of duty.
Yeah, I remember how nice it was too. All through Enron, the push to get tax cuts to stimulate the economy, the calls of "What did we know and when did we know it?" The push for wartime funding and the hysteria over the Axis of Evil speech. Oh yeah, remember the attacks on Trent Lott over his comments at Thurmond's brithday? Ahh such memories. The Democrats always tried to reach out with honor and integrity to work with Republicans to make the world a better place. Just like they do today. Sure they did. [Roll Eyes]

But you don't need to rely on the rose colored glasses of others. It's easy enough to go back and relive those great times when the Democrats just gave and gave and gave. All you have to do is fire up the wayback machine and browse through history.

EDIT: I like this quote from Power Line's June 2002 archive (only 9 months after 9/11):
quote:
Also, this poll adds confirmation that the Democrats' attack on the Administration has misfired, as hardly anyone blames Bush for the terrorist attacks.
Such good times. [Razz]

[ November 10, 2004, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Gary ]

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OhPuhLeez
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Really? Do you really want to roll out a four-year look at the Bush administration? I don't think so.

Just enjoy the next four years with your blinders on (must be fun, even moreso than my rose-colored glasses)...'cause in likelihood it's all effing downhill from here.

Bush is a menace, and the stranglehold on the voting machine thanks to, among others, his buddies at Diebold.

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RussMax
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Someone else mentioned that OhPuhLeese's 2nd link (in the opening message of this thread) had been updated. Here's the update:

quote:
Update: Palm Beach County has updated their numbers and added 91,802 absentee ballots and 1,041 provisional ballots. Note that the vote totals for president only increased by 1,543 votes. To view an archived copy of the previous report, click here. While Palm Beach County appears to have accounted for the discrepancy, this underscores the flaws in the system and data compilation.

So that accounts for the 88,408 missing ballots, and then some. All the other links people have given are kook conspiracy theories.
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OhPuhLeez
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OhPuhLeese?

Who's that [Wink] ?

OH...you mean the kook conspiracy theorist?

Gotcha. [Roll Eyes]

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Gary
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quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:
Bush is a menace, and the stranglehold on the voting machine thanks to, among others, his buddies at Diebold.

Are you saying Bush and Diebold (among others) were in collusion to "fix" the election? If you have a link to a web site detailing this conspiracy, I'd love to read it. [Big Grin]
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OhPuhLeez
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http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm
http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

http://www.house.gov/kucinich/issues/voting.htm

There's lots more out there - all of which I'm sure you'll claim is just bogus.

Go ahead.

[ November 10, 2004, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: OhPuhLeez ]

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Gary
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You're right, there are lot's more. [Eek!] I like this one at http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/

quote:
... the election was rigged in Ohio, with touch screen machines logging more than ten votes for Bush for every one cast. Something’s rotten in Dayton. The numbers just don’t add up. We were robbed, again…hijacked by an empire building republican guard that wants to create the New Rome. It’s very scary!

So many people in this country haven’t been paying attention. So look what will be. The end is nigh, doomsday is approaching and the impending apocalyptic battle of Armageddon is looming as a probable reality in the near future.

The vote counting ended as the Moon was pulling up alongside Saturn, indicating people were voting their emotions and fear and security were high among the factors. Insecurity was emphasized by the Bush campaign all along, as they kept up threat warnings and Cheney kept up the fear rhetoric, as well.

The culture war has begun, only it isn’t the rich versus the poor, as we thought it would be…well, it is, but it’s the religious evangelicals against the rest of the world.

Proof positive of fraud.
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OhPuhLeez
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Gary -

While clearly the planets don't hold a lot of water in this theory for me, if you want to blindly believe everything that happens in the world without ever questioning it, you go right ahead.

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Star Pilot 111
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Dingy Dang Doggie
Just as I thunk [Big Grin]

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maniacal_engineer
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c'mon guys - its mother jones - its GOTTA be the real deal. Ans kucinich is noted for nothing if not stability and sobriety (I had so wanted him to get the nomination and select the reverend Al as a running mate)

OhPuhLeez - the name could not be more appropriate

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OhPuhLeez
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Yes - because it's exactly how I feel when I read posts like this.

FYI, nice of you to avoid all conversation and instead make it personal by commenting on my screen name. Just what I should have expected.

Done engaging with you guys - very non-productive to any discussion.

[ November 10, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: OhPuhLeez ]

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