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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Moral Values, Red, Blue, and Welfare too.??

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Author Topic: Moral Values, Red, Blue, and Welfare too.??
Star Pilot 111
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Moral Values
Children born to teenage or unmarried mothers
Red States 33.7 percent
Blue States 32.5

Murder Rate
Red States 7.4 per 100,000
Blue states 6.1 per 100,000

Entitlements
Subsidies for the Heartland (Looks kind of like welfare)
As a group the Red States pay considerably less taxes than the federal government spends within their borders; Blue States pay considerably more.

Over all, Blue America subsidizes Red America to the tune of $90 billion or so a year.


Entitlements like these could bread laziness, and the lack of motivation to help themselves. Just like a conservative said about people in government assisted programs like welfare: It "seizes an individual's agency---and the responsibility respective to it---and transfers it to the state, effectively nullifying a person's ownership of their own life and destiny." ( quote is from, Guest Essays, " the Whys and Lies of Conservatism" by Sean Holiday.

I'd vote for someone who would give me money to not grow my corn. I guess I could say to "Not Work"

I know it is economics that drives this mentality.
The system, needs to be fixed.
Robbing one part of the country to subsidize the other: Is that Moral Values ?

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Daruma28
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Here's a good rebuttal of this meme: (I think this blogger is a leftist democrat.....)

Red State Welfare: Quit (most of) yer bitchin'

quote:


Can I say that I’m pretty sick of hearing the liberal blogosphere bitch about so-called Red State Welfare. There’s some debateable programs in existence, like the size of the current farm bill, but a lot the of lop-sidedness in federal taxation v. federal expenditures by states is for other reasons.

First, let’s take a look at the study being used to bolster these claims: Federal Tax Burdens and Expenditures By State. The study is from the Tax Foundation and it documents a few things. First, New Mexico gets a lot of federal money and doesn’t pay much in federal taxes. Why is that? Well, the federal money is for things like nuclear research. New Mexico is the center of a lot of government research. As for the federal tax revenues, I’m not sure, since New Mexico’s economy seems to do fine, except that maybe all that federal money means that a lot of the state is tax-exempt. That’s simply what happens with research. It seems pretty stupid to me, though, to be bashing the state that is our strongest state in a region that is becoming bluer.

One feature that explains why the West overall tends to receive more than it spends is the farm bill. But there are other thins as well, like federal lands management and fire fighting. We have huge forest fires. We also have huge numbers of fire fighters here in the summer. And we have a huge forest service. That’s all federal money.

So why does Montana get more money back than Wyoming? Well, we don’t actually. Our tax expenditures are about equal. It’s just that they pay more in taxes than we do because they have more oil and gas development because they’re, well, redder than we are.

So what’s up with Nevada, which has a larger number of federal lands as a percentage of the state than anywhere else in the country, except for maybe Alaska? Well, they have a lot of gambling, that is also taxed quite heavily.

Alaska, with all of its federal land and its talented pork barrel senators gets a lot. I’m not sure exactly why Alaska has had a drop in its tax burden, but I do know its tax burden would probably rise if Blue Staters would let Alaska drill ANWR.

States with public land sometimes lose out on money because we don’t always tap our natural resources, sometimes, as in Alaska’s case, because Blue State enviros don’t want it done (in all fairness, I agree with the BSE on ANWR). But then there’s a double pissed-off nature. These people have a bunch of land that they don’t get to make decisions about and they’re told to stop living off the federal teat.

Oh yeah, the other reason for these inequalities is because a lot of people in Red States make less money, hence we pay less in federal income tax. Grab your shotguns, assholes, and shoot the poor.

You want to know what’s costing us votes in these states? It’s your damn attitudes, so please shut the fork up before attacking the states you need to win.


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Star Pilot 111
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First, thanks for the web site, I will read and get as mush as I can from it.
Thanks for explaining some things I didn't know. I do like this web site because I so learn from it. However the things I learn here may not change my opinion of some people who say one thing and do the opposite, because I feel the trust we give our elected officials is more sacred, than they feel it is.

I do have some questions, about some of the things you've explained, and I'll get back to you with those if it's ok.
________________________________________________
quote Daruma28
Can I say that I’m pretty sick of hearing the liberal blogosphere bitch about so-called Red State Welfare.
_________________________________________________

I'm sick of the way it seems the conservatives personally attack people who differ with there political policy. Calling them Un-American and insinuating that these differing opinions, demoralize the troops and encourage the terrorists. It's hard for me to understand how so many people go along with that crap.

________________________________________________
quote Daruma28
You want to know what’s costing us votes in these states? It’s your damn attitudes, so please shut the fork up before attacking the states you need to win.
_________________________________________________

I didn’t know I had that much power.

here's another thought.
The political system is out of balance, with too many political officials beholding to big contributors. and because of that, the system works best, only, for the big contributors, and friends. In the past few years we've seen corporate malfeasance exposed, and no matter what the penalty is given to the perpetrators will pale in comparison to the retirement lost and the lives destroyed. It's wrong, and the politicians are slow to address the problem because they can't afford to offend their base.

I'm great full for a quote I found by Martin Luther King Jr, I hope I don't misquote it.

" The moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards Justice"

One other thing
________________________________________________
quote Daruma28
shut the fork up
________________________________________________

I think you misspelled a word [Smile]

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Star Pilot 111
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correction

this is what I ment to write

In the past few years we've seen corporate malfeasance exposed, and no matter what penalty is given to the perpetrators, it will pale in comparison to the retirement lost and the lives destroyed.

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Zyne
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Fork the south! (R for language.)

Ed: You're going to have to figger out for yourselves what the ****s in the link are.

[ November 10, 2004, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Zyne ]

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OhPuhLeez
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Yep - well wait 'til they outlaw abortion and hire a few more anti-birth control pharmacists. Rich folks can afford a plane ticket elsewhere to get one if they want. Poor folks? Not so much.

Great - what's a few thousand more welfare babies, really, right?

Zyne - I LOVE that link, someone forwarded that to me today.

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Van Aaron
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If the blue states are subsidizing the red states, then shouldn't people in the blue states respond by favoring lower federal taxes and fewer government programs, i.e., become red?
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RickyB
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No. We're not as selfish as y'all [Big Grin]
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Snowden
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quote:
If the blue states are subsidizing the red states, then shouldn't people in the blue states respond by favoring lower federal taxes and fewer government programs, i.e., become red?
We don't mind, we just don't want to be cursed for it.

[ November 11, 2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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Daruma28
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Star Pilot, I didn't write that post....it was from the blogger I linked to. I just so happened to read your post, than I went and checked a blog that had a link to that post.

If I'm not mistaken, that post was made by a Kerry voting Democrat responding to the assertion that the Red States recieve "welfare" from the Blue States. I think his main point is exactly right...that kind of attitude and outright condescension is exactly why the Democrats lost some critical states.

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Snowden
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With all of this talk, how much does the work of the of the democratic party have to worry about southern egos. We'll adapt. We'll do better next time, and it's going to be because we are the party of introspection. But if the root is that we are supposed to pretend that okay that blank and blank state does not invest enough in education, or that De-mint, Bunning, and Coburn are bigots, or that Bush performed strikingly awful during the debates, it's really a tough road, and the only person who is going do this is going to be, by definition, a panderer without principles. Obama is the exception. He has a way around this because he has a keen understanding of the unity between people, but it's a tough road to hoe.

[ November 11, 2004, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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Van Aaron
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You don't have to pander to folks who are foolish or bigoted, but if the Democrats believe that they are doing poorly only because a lot of people are foolish and bigoted, then they are not the "party of introspection," and they are not likely to improve their standing any time soon.
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Snowden
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Bunning, De-mint, and Coburn are shameful candidates, turned elected officials.These three aren't sensible people with conservative economic policies running against the left wing of the democratic party. All three ran against moderate, pro-business, Clinton Democrats. Granted, Inez Tenenbaum isn't going be able to match the fire of a guy who said that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to teach public school, and Brad Carson is a little too boring to parry the vitrol of Tom Coburn saying that abortion doctors should get the death penalty. I'm guessing that two thirds of the people who voted for them aren't going to vote for Democrats.

The Democratic party can do better about considering the judgements of the Demint, Coburn voters, but there has to be an extent to which we have to say that some of these people are wrong, and we can't do that if we are worried about bruising egos.

[ November 11, 2004, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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Star Pilot 111
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to Druma28

Ok

I'll send him my reply [Big Grin]

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ATW
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What is amusing to me is the expectation of a quid pro quo.

The democrats have promoted and pushed toward this welfare state/massive transfer of wealth for decades. Now, they're complaining.

Why?

We democrats gave you all this money but you didn't vote for us.

Thinking back to the decades of republicans accusing democrats of spending federal dollars to get votes while democrats steadfastly deny it, its kind of refreshing for democrats to be honest enough to complain it didn't work this year.

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Snowden
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Fair enough.

In our defense, the apparent hypocrisy gets me. How can people be so virolently anti-tax, yet eat up more taxes than they produce, and at the same time, scorn the way the money is produced and the principles by which it is distributed. The statement is closer to, "The democrats gave you all this money, but you still mock the principles of giving you all this money."

[ November 11, 2004, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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Robertson, Ugly and Nohow
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quote:
No. We're not as selfish as y'all
au contraire. Check out the state by state generosity index

The blue states may pay more taxes, but they seem to be on the low end of the charitable scale.

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Snowden
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In defense of Ricky's statement. The index works by AAGI( Average Adjusted Gross Income) but it doesn't tell you how it adjusts it vs. the ICDs(Percent of Returns with Itemized Charitable Deductions), which may not represent the same class of citizens throughout the states.

I also think it takes into account donations to church and church tithes, which are fiats by the word God, and I think, somehow less voluntary than the taxes one votes for. If the Lord says that you have to do x, and you do x because the Lord tells you to do it, it's not charity. It's obedience, but I'm pretty sure there is a difference.

More deeply, I think that there is a difference between putting yourself below the Lord, and putting yourself below the needs of your fellow man. Don't press me on the particulars; I'm not sure of the exact nature of this difference.

[ November 11, 2004, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Snowden ]

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