Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Abbas won (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Abbas won
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I just saw the news, apparently he won by a very large margin. I hope this is the beginning of a new era in that troubled peace process. It looks like by this sweeping victory for Abbas, the majority of the Palestinian people have firmly expressed that they are NOT for the destruction of Israel and do NOT condone terrorism. The guy who was the supposed favorite who was released from jail didn't even come close to Abbas in the count. Of course, one wonders if there was any fraud initiated, either by the CIA, the Mossad or Abbas himself, but hopefully not. I will drink to this tonight.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kelcimer
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
We knew he was going to win. That is not the story. The story is voter turn out and by how much his margin is.

The percentage of voters voting is above 66% and we won't know the margin until later today.

As to what he says he is going to do about reforming the Palestinian Authority, overhaul the unwieldy Palestinian security services and resuming negotiations with Israel...well, I'll believe it when I see it. We have had decades of Palestine blowing smoke up everyone's asses. Situation normal: BS filters to high and then some.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Actually kelcimer, the story is not the one you portray. The man who Israel released from jail last year was the favorite in all the polls, and he was a vehement opponent of any compromise with Israel. Also, Abbas is a proven reformer, he has used some authority already as interim President to arrest some mid-level Hamas figures.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Robertson, Ugly and Nohow
Member
Member # 1375

 - posted      Profile for Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Email Robertson, Ugly and Nohow   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I worry that he won't do too much reforming. As he got further down the campaign trail, his rhetoric started sounding a lot more like his predecessor. I fear that he sold his soul to buy this election and that Hamas et al. have him securely under their thumb.
Posts: 450 | Registered: Nov 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ben5
Member
Member # 1488

 - posted      Profile for ben5     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Robertson, Ugly and Nohow:
I fear that he sold his soul to buy this election and that Hamas et al. have him securely under their thumb.

Didn't Hamas call for a boycott of the elections?
Posts: 138 | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sancselfieme who exactly did we release from jail and is the faviorite?


the other guy who got a sizeable precentage is one bargouty. but not THE mostafa bargouty, he is still in israeli jail and hopefully be there till he dies, the bargouty runner up is his nefew or somthing.

and anyway abu mazen (the guy you call abbas) was a sure win. he was only afraid that he wont win by a large margin and that there will be a low voting precentage because then the hamas could claim that allthough he won the ellection the majority of the palestinians wont support him.

Ben5, hamas didnt produce a runner up from their ranks, but they sure watched closly the ellections, they declared that they will "work" with who ever wins.

but people. if the palestinian authority, now that it has a president, wont dismantle all the militias and form a single army of their own like a normal authority, then all these elections are BS.

by the way, i hope that abu mazen's radical declerations in his campaign about the right of return were just that - ment to draw voters.
because if he will not relent on this, he will not make peace either.

i am a little more hopefull now that he is chosen but frankly i need lots of proof in the field before i really think there could be peace between us and them

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think it matters who runs the PA, or how much of a mandate that person has. Neither Israelis nor Palestinians are willing to budge on Jerusalem, so there won't be peace.
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
not so drake.
i think that a creative sollution can solve the jerusalem problem.

the problem is that the palestinians wont budge from their rediculous right of return demand

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hannibal, many of them don't think it's ridiculous. They think it is sacred, legal and possible.
http://www.akpress.org/2003/items/palestinianrefugees

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sancselfieme, they mask it with this sacredness of "we want to go to our original homes" bull ****. but think a moment, they are finally going to have their OWN country where they can live their lives with their OWN people. then what? they want to move to israel?

they want to do it for one reason: they multyply like rabbits and eventually they will brake the balance of a jewish majority in israel, and then they could take over all this land, both ours and theirs. it is so simple i cant see how the world doesnt see it.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's a pretty dehumanizing attitude you have there. It seems you almost view them like a virus or a plague. Maybe Israel's government should do something beyond what it is doing now to provide incentives for higher birth rates among its citizens. I would wager most of the Palestinians in question just want to return to the land their fathers owned and the lands they grew up on. They probably would gladly settle for that without some grand breeding scheme to overthrow Israel. However, your heated rhetoric and sweeping denial of any validity to their arguments shows you probably won't consider budging your viewpoint whatsoever.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tezcatlipoca
Member
Member # 1312

 - posted      Profile for Tezcatlipoca     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
However, your heated rhetoric and sweeping denial of any validity to their arguments shows you probably won't consider budging your viewpoint whatsoever.
Unfortunately, Hannibal is the one who already has the land and the power to defend it, so simply walking away from him will leave you with nothing. He doesn't need to consider giving Palestinians back "their" land unless you give him reason to.

If he really didn't care about their argument or yours, why would he even be talking with you?

Posts: 1272 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sancselfieme, is there any short version to your nick that you prefer? [Smile]

its not a dehuminizing attitude it is true, the avarage palestinian family has 5-6 children even more, while the avarage israeli family has 2-3 children (i have included here the religious families and the arab israeli familis)

and israel, has only 7 million people (not 300 million. like in the states) and 1.2 of them are arab israelis. if another considerable amount of arabs will move over. then not so long in the future, say 20 to 50 years the majority in israel will be palestinian and it whould be the end of things. again i am surprised how people dont see that simple fact.

and i ask you Sancselfieme, WHY should the palestinians move to ANOTHER country when they will have a country of their OWN? and the answer is not the "my grandfather is burried there rethoric" but "by the rate we reproduce we will take over this land in 50 years, no need to hurry"

and i am very much willing to budge, they can have east jerusalem, and the 1967 borders, and move all their refugess inside those territories and install their own state do whatever they want with it. they just need to let go of that stupid demand

this is way more budging in my side then the americans "budged" towards the indians

[ January 12, 2005, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
hey tezcatlipoca it took me a while to understand your post

waaaa i am offended

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Unfortunately, Hannibal is the one who already has the land and the power to defend it, so simply walking away from him will leave you with nothing. He doesn't need to consider giving Palestinians back "their" land unless you give him reason to.
I guess you are ignoring the fact that there are hostilities going on because of this situation. Sure Israel is in a superior position of power but with that kind of attitude Palestinians and Arabs will keep attacking Israel -- as unsuccessful as they may be overall -- merely to inflict damage. It is attitudes such as the one you are describing that are responsible for the continued violence. It's too bad you are advocating a position in which only power and ability to inflict violence and exert control are respected.

Also Tez, do any of us here pretend we are world leaders, and can make significant impacts on these situations? No, of course not. I seriously doubt Hannibal would be able to end occupation of the West Bank or give the Palestinians their right to return even if he wanted to. So your statement that my argument is moot because I am not in a position to give anything to anyone, or that someone else supposedly is is not only irrelevant, but also erroneous.


quote:
its not a dehuminizing attitude it is true, the avarage palestinian family has 5-6 children even more, while the avarage israeli family has 2-3 children (i have included here the religious families and the arab israeli familis)

It IS dehumanizing, regardless of the truth to it or not. The way you are talking about them is like a scientist or a doctor discussing virulent bacteria. Your additional crude rhetoric only serves to add to this perspective. You view their reproduction as a threat to you, which is ridiculous. The United States does NOT ban immigration of Chinese into the US based on the fact that their birth rates are higher, even though they are ideological opponents. You have not even addressed the possibility of limited return to a significant portion of the refugees. Now while the situation is not altogether completely similar, I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians bear no ill-will to the state of Israel, and this is reflected by the recent elections. Worry that they might outbreed you and take over your state if allowed in is not only racist, but facist as well. I sincerely hope you will not hold these beliefs upon logical review of them.

[ January 12, 2005, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sancselfieme, please, is there any short version to your nick that you prefer?

"Worry that they might outbreed you and take over your state if allowed in is not only racist, but facist as well"

this is the way every non arab israeli sees the right of return. from all political sides and from all levels of religous beliefs from ultra orthodox to ultra secular like myself.

this is how israel was founded. israel is the only jewish state in the world for the jewish people. then our coutry is racist and facist from its core, by your standarts. and then there is not much to talk about.

you see Sancse, it IS a matter of growth rate. the arabs tried to kill the jews here from the 1920's and tried to destroy israel since it was a minute old. and they failed. so their only method of destroying israel is to ruin it from within, with massive immigration. again we are very fiew here. they dont need to bring a million people to take over only a mere couple of hundred tousand people and the balance of 80% jews 20% arabs will brake and eventually there will be an arab majority and this land will be another palestinian state.


The United States does NOT ban immigration of Chinese into the US based on the fact that their birth rates are higher,

no but the united states has limits of immigration per year. in fact they have very strict limits and you know it. further more the idea of the united states is to be the land of the free. while the idea of israel is to be the land of the jews

" I would venture to say that the overwhelming majority of the Palestinians bear no ill-will to the state of Israel" then i whould just the same venture that most palestinians whould defenetly like it better if israel whould not exist and they whouldnt mind if that happned.

i really dont see how you fail to see my point of view Sancse, instead of calling me a facist and a racist.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You fail to accept that the majority of those Palestinians who would even WANT to come back probably wouldn't wish any harm to Israel or to disturb it's government for mere virtue of the fact that they would be living in it.


Also, Germans once wanted to annihilate America, as did ex-Soviet Russians, there is something called time which alleviates rifts between peoples. A big inroads to the healing process would be the right of return granted by Israel. Even if the immigrating Arabs would outbreed the Jewish population of Israel, you still have yet to prove that they have this grand scheme for taking over the government and oppressing the then-Jewish minority.

[ January 12, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
but why whould they move to a country who doesnt want them, when they are about to have a country of their own. i defenetly FAIL to see the resoning in that.

and dont you see that by simply living in israel they whould destroy it, because they will not vote the jewish parties they will vote the arab parties, and when they will be a majority they will win the ellections and we will have an ARAB prime minister.

"Even if the immigrating Arabs would outbreed the Jewish population of Israel, you still have yet to prove that they have this grand scheme for taking over the government and oppressing the then-Jewish minority. "

no i dont need to prove any thing, for once i agree with Tez on this. lets say we let them come to israel and it turns out i was right. what then? i lost everything. they got it all.

no israeli with his right mind on his sholders will let such a thing happen. wether from left or right. agreeing to such a thing is sealing the doom on our coutry as the jewish state and we will never do it.

and we are not even begining to discuss here the fact that if we agree to let them come back it means that we admit that we chased them out to begin with, which we didnt. they left on the encouragment from their leaders that "the tiny israeli state will be crashed soon and they can return" so why should we pay for that?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
but why whould they move to a country who doesnt want them, when they are about to have a country of their own. i defenetly FAIL to see the resoning in that.

Because it is their home, and they want to go back. Can you truly not see this. There is additional religious importance to Israel for them as well.


quote:
and dont you see that by simply living in israel they whould destroy it, because they will not vote the jewish parties they will vote the arab parties, and when they will be a majority they will win the ellections and we will have an ARAB prime minister.
This is blatantly facist. So Israel doesn't have an Israeli PM, so what? You fail to provide the link from a modern Arab government of Israel to Jewish persecution. This reminds me of the fears about what would happen to Turkey when the Islamic party was elected and nothing really changed.


quote:
no i dont need to prove any thing, for once i agree with Tez on this. lets say we let them come to israel and it turns out i was right. what then? i lost everything. they got it all.
You have yet to show a single credible piece of information that suggests any of your ludicrous fears are true, on the other hand, most available information shows that a right of return would be beneficial to BOTH parties.

quote:
no israeli with his right mind on his sholders will let such a thing happen. wether from left or right. agreeing to such a thing is sealing the doom on our coutry as the jewish state and we will never do it.
This is not accurate, I would venture to say there are many Israelis, especially the Arab ones, who wouldn't mind the Palestinians returning. Only close-minded, racist and facist people would want their government dominated by one ethno-religion.


quote:
and we are not even begining to discuss here the fact that if we agree to let them come back it means that we admit that we chased them out to begin with, which we didnt they left on the encouragment from their leaders that "the tiny israeli state will be crashed soon and they can return" so why should we pay for that?
Many of them WERE "chased out," but this is besides the point, allowing them to return is an admission of NOTHING, it is merely a means to peace. Besides, since then your government has inflicted a lot of negative actions upon them, we can argue all day long whether is was "justified" or not but the fact remains, the right of return is the best solution for a workable long-term peace. Lets suppose your observations about the insiduous nature of the Palestinian person is correct, would you rather wait until they built up their own sovereign state next to yours before they get their land back, or would you rather be involved in the process and make it go as smoothly as possible.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Because it is their home, and they want to go back. Can you truly not see this. There is additional religious importance to Israel for them as well."

then you are soooooo lucky that the indians dont want to return to their homes. it is not THEIR home. they can have control over all their very important religious sites and still return to the palestinian state. i am trying really hard here to understand why you are not answering the simple question of why wont they go live in PEACE IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY instead of living IN HATRED IN A COUNTRY WHERE NO BODY WANTS THEM


"This is blatantly facist. So Israel doesn't have an Israeli PM, so what? "

then try not to bring this subject to any israeli you meet, you will find that we are all facists.


"You have yet to show a single credible piece of information that suggests any of your ludicrous fears are true"

all the last 56 years are evidance enough for me.
do you know what happnes when an honest israeli civilian accidently stumbles into palestinian controlled territory? his life expectancy is shorter then an american marine assaulting the beaches of normandy.


"on the other hand, most available information shows that a right of return would be beneficial to BOTH parties"

yes, show me please how forcebly fusing two people who hate each other's guts togather on a small peace of land will be beneficial?

dont you see we dont want this! we thought that we can live togather on the same land, we cant. what we need is two seperate nations for our two different people. they are going to have their country a country for the PALESTINIANS according to your equatsion, we can basically leave all the settlers where they are, they will simply be the citizens of the new palestinian state, i wonder what will the palestinians think of that. no ISRAELI will live inside PALESTINE and no PALESTINIAN will live in ISRAEL. this is how things should be.


"This is not accurate, I would venture to say there are many Israelis, especially the Arab ones, who wouldn't mind the Palestinians returning. Only close-minded, racist and facist people would want their government dominated by one ethno-religion."

you mean to say, ONLY the arab israelis, and Murdechai VANUNU want the palestinians to return.
again, dont bring this issue up with any jew-israeli you encounter or you will find out that we are all racists, facists and close minded

"Besides, since then your government has inflicted a lot of negative actions upon them,"

what actions did we inflict on any refugee that lives in a refugee camp in the arab countries? we have no power over them.

it is their ARAB BROTHERS who tormented them all these years as a weapon against israel, instead of letting those refugees live normal lives they kept them in jail like getthos with minimal or less wellfare conditions. we did nothing to them.

the palestinians unfortionatly were screwed by their arab "brothers" in 1948 when they told them to leave the territory, wait till israel is destroyed and come back. and again they were screwed because after the arab countries lost the war, they failed to accomondate all the palestinian refugess they caused.

in the decleration of the founding of israel, our first PM, David Ben Gurion specifically called on to the palestinian residents NOT TO LEAVE, to wait the battles out and to stay as israeli citizens.

"the right of return is the best solution for a workable long-term peace."

yes there will be peace, but once sided peace because the state of israel will not exist any more.

"Lets suppose your observations about the insiduous nature of the Palestinian person is correct, would you rather wait until they built up their own sovereign state next to yours before they get their land back, "

that is all the land that they are getting back. the occupied lands of 1967 are more then enough, it will be bigger then luxemburg. they will have their soverign state, do what ever they want there, hate us as much as they want. but from inside there. they should stay in their country and we in ours.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Be careful throwing around the F word (fascism). There's nothing fascist about the Israeli position.

Many European countries limit their immigration to maintain a demographic balance - among other things. So does the US. If the Delaware Indians demanded the right of return to Manhattan, how many Americans would be in favor?

To put it another way, suppose you were born in Israel in 1953. You're 51 years old, and some guy shows up at the house you've lived in all your life and says "Right of return - I used to live here - get out".

The Palestinians apparently prefer to huddle in refugee camps than to accept reality. When the UN guaranteed right of return in 1948, they really weren't planning on it being handed down through the centuries. It is no longer practical.

Since then, the Israelis have invested sweat and ideas to build great cities and industry where desert once stood. I can understand why they would be reluctant to lose control of what they've accomplished, not to mention the desire to maintain a Jewish state.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You really don't get it do you? Either you are wrong about the Palestinians and they pose no long-term threat as potential citizens of Israel or you are right about them and they will NEVER stop trying to get their land back until either all Jews in Israel or all of them are killed, having a sovereign state by which to marshall resources would only exascerbate this conflict. The 2nd scenario is avoidable IF measures are taken now to inocculate against it, such as the right of return, or perhaps a more limited version of it.

I suspect that by the blanket stereotypes you have made against the Palestinians, that you are smart enough to realize that your assertions are wrong but holding to them will get the Jews of Israel the best possible outcome since they can hold onto everything, concede nothing, and not really have to ever worry about a serious Palestinian threat.


[edit]:
Drake, fascim is marked as a political system apart from most other dictatorial styles by one main attribute: the seperation of peoples into rigid class systems, in this case by their ethnicity/religion. Hannibal's reactions to allowing the Palestinians into his country as equal citizens who could potentially hold office is demonstrative of this ideal. How can you deny this?


quote:
Many European countries limit their immigration to maintain a demographic balance - among other things. So does the US. If the Delaware Indians demanded the right of return to Manhattan, how many Americans would be in favor?

To put it another way, suppose you were born in Israel in 1953. You're 51 years old, and some guy shows up at the house you've lived in all your life and says "Right of return - I used to live here - get out".

The Palestinians apparently prefer to huddle in refugee camps than to accept reality. When the UN guaranteed right of return in 1948, they really weren't planning on it being handed down through the centuries. It is no longer practical.

Since then, the Israelis have invested sweat and ideas to build great cities and industry where desert once stood. I can understand why they would be reluctant to lose control of what they've accomplished, not to mention the desire to maintain a Jewish state.

Maintaining a 'Nation State' in the coming world future is insane, impractical and will be ultimately impossible. It goes against every principle of progress in peaceful human relations and is mutually exclusive to successful democracy. Drake, you seriously sound like someone from the 1600-1800s. Keeping Israel a "pure Jewish state," or as pure as possible, is not only morally repugnant, but it will be Israel's downfall if they try to do it.

[ January 12, 2005, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see that i dont get to you.

i am talling you from a first handed source
all jewish-israeli news papers, all jewish-israeli parliment members, all jewish-israeli "know it alls" say that the right of return is a national suicide.

this is israel this is who we are, it is non negotable and non changble.

jewish israeli doenst nessaserrily means religious jews who believe in the "whole land of israel" notion. but secular modern jews like me. and modern newspapers

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Like I said, ethnic OR religious nation states are impractical now, and will be impossible in the future. Israel is a good contemporary example of WHY this is so, and it is also an example of a situation that can be either difused, or allowed to continue into another distaster in human history.

[ January 12, 2005, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
the fact is Sancse is that all along the history when jews were minority they were annihilated.
jews have the right, after being prosecuted all along the history, to be a little racist when it comes to a country of their own

now cry as they might, the palestinians have a real good chance to end the conflict, why cant they simply accept it? because they dont want to end the conflict they want to end it by taking over israel.

you see, their country , democracy or not, will never amount to anything good, like all the other arab countries, so they want to take over the advanced israel

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I see, so because Jews suffered at the hands of other groups in history, that justifies what they do now to the Palestinians? That is horrible logic and you should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?


quote:
now cry as they might, the palestinians have a real good chance to end the conflict, why cant they simply accept it? because they dont want to end the conflict they want to end it by taking over israel.

Actually with the election of Abbas they are showing that they DO want to end it.


quote:
you see, their country , democracy or not, will never amount to anything good, like all the other arab countries

You ARE a racist, you even partially admitted it above anyway. As far as I am concerned you do not deserve to vote in your country. You offend me. This conversation is OVER.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
LOL GOOD ONE
i am going to link this thread to ALL my friends

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If they are anything like you please keep them off the forum.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
and i am a leftwinger

you should have spoken to a right winger

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sancselfieme:
[edit]:
Drake, fascim is marked as a political system apart from most other dictatorial styles by one main attribute: the seperation of peoples into rigid class systems, in this case by their ethnicity/religion. Hannibal's reactions to allowing the Palestinians into his country as equal citizens who could potentially hold office is demonstrative of this ideal. How can you deny this?

First, because Arab-Israelis have some rights and priviledges, and these are improving. They are elected office holders, run businesses, and make up a large part of the population. While there is no parity between Jewish and Arab Israelis, the situation is improving.

Second, because they are a democracy. There is nothing dictatorial about the political system. There are elections that actually mean something, with frequent shifts of policy and person - the most recent shift to Sharon, but by no means a stable one.

Third, a lack of censorship. Israel is an open society, and tolerates most opinions. There is a small amount of regrettable censorship, but it is quite possible to publish opinions critical of the government.

More than enough to distinguish any Israeli racism from fascism.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GOD this is annoying!
Sancse your supposed self rightousness against my evilness is annoying

how dare you critisizing me for not wanting 3,000,000 people to suddenly come to my country and become equal citizens?
the arab israeli, are "by the law" equal in their rights to any other civilian here, they can be ellected and do what ever they want by the law.

how can you critisize israel for not wanting that
i am appaled. and if you want to call me a facist and a racist go on, i the evil israeli didnt use bad language in this debate only you did

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tezcatlipoca
Member
Member # 1312

 - posted      Profile for Tezcatlipoca     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I guess you are ignoring the fact that there are hostilities going on because of this situation.
Last I checked Israel is one of the most powerful forces in the region, and Palestine has people living in refugee camps. Seems to be that the hostilities aren't working for them.

quote:
Sure Israel is in a superior position of power but with that kind of attitude Palestinians and Arabs will keep attacking Israel -- as unsuccessful as they may be overall -- merely to inflict damage.
And they will keep getting nothing in return, as Israel repairs and moves on with it's future.

quote:
It is attitudes such as the one you are describing that are responsible for the continued violence.
Should I bend over and spread my legs or should I hand you the soap first? I guess the only way for all violence to stop is for me surrender and stop fighting. Seems to be that the Israelis are fighting, surviving, and thriving with this "continued violence". Things like that usually happen when you are free.

quote:
It's too bad you are advocating a position in which only power and ability to inflict violence and exert control are respected.
Why is that bad? Seems to be the superior strategy. Too bad you can't adopt to it.

quote:
Also Tez, do any of us here pretend we are world leaders, and can make significant impacts on these situations?
No, I simply pretend that I elect my world leader, so he might possibly have the same view on the matter as I do.

quote:
I seriously doubt Hannibal would be able to end occupation of the West Bank or give the Palestinians their right to return even if he wanted to.
Sorry if I don't buy into your collectivist ideals, I still believe in the power of the individual.

quote:
So your statement that my argument is moot because I am not in a position to give anything to anyone, or that someone else supposedly is is not only irrelevant, but also erroneous.
Hardly. Even after all you have done to try to convince me that I don't have the power to shoot the gun, I still am the one holding it.

quote:
You view their reproduction as a threat to you, which is ridiculous.
That is such a classic point of your argument. How much more nonsense and incorrect facts can you pretend are truth? Is it ridiculous that it might be considered a threat if a ten man squad is fighting a one hundred man squad? Should the threat level be the same as that of another ten man squad?

quote:
Worry that they might outbreed you and take over your state if allowed in is not only racist, but facist as well.
Yes, self-defense is extremely prejudice. How dare he defend himself? Why would anyone in his right mind put himself before the group? Self-interest is such a blight on humanity isn't it?

quote:
I sincerely hope you will not hold these beliefs upon logical review of them.
Logically speaking, I only see a better position from where I am in right now. I feel statistically safer with the gun in my hand instead of in yours. Does that add up for you?

quote:
Even if the immigrating Arabs would outbreed the Jewish population of Israel, you still have yet to prove that they have this grand scheme for taking over the government and oppressing the then-Jewish minority.
That is brilliant. Why even give them the opportunity? That is like a democracy voting in facism. Do you decide to switch back to democracy if you find that you just really don't like facism that much? No, you get lined up and shot.

quote:
This is blatantly facist.
You are confusing facist with racist. And you are confusing racism with self-interest.

quote:
You have yet to show a single credible piece of information that suggests any of your ludicrous fears are true
Open a history book.

quote:
Only close-minded, racist and facist people would want their government dominated by one ethno-religion.
And you still want to live there? Sounds like a pretty horrible place, I guess you better stay away from there completely. I'm sure they would be fine with that too.

quote:
Many of them WERE "chased out,"
I don't see you crying out your eyes for the Jews "chased out" of Eygpt, or any other of the surrounding Arab countries in the 1940's, but that is beside the point.

quote:
but this is besides the point, allowing them to return is an admission of NOTHING, it is merely a means to peace.
It certainly is a means to peace, but it is not the only one, and they seem to be doing fine the way they are right now. Do you understand how much freedom you are suggesting they give up simply so they can have "peace"? What if what you call peace, they call something completely different?

quote:
You really don't get it do you? Either you are wrong about the Palestinians and they pose no long-term threat as potential citizens of Israel or you are right about them and they will NEVER stop trying to get their land back until either all Jews in Israel or all of them are killed
Well then, I say the best of luck, and may the best man win. Looks like the Irsaelis have the upper hand, might be hard for the Palestinians to come back this late in the game.

quote:
I suspect that by the blanket stereotypes you have made against the Palestinians, that you are smart enough to realize that your assertions are wrong but holding to them will get the Jews of Israel the best possible outcome since they can hold onto everything, concede nothing, and not really have to ever worry about a serious Palestinian threat.
You assume that it is wrong in the first place. What if it is right? What if Might makes Right?

quote:
I see, so because Jews suffered at the hands of other groups in history, that justifies what they do now to the Palestinians? That is horrible logic and you should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you?
So is it horribly unjust when a slave overpowers a master and forces him to be a slave? Where were your morals when he was a slave in the first place?

quote:
You ARE a racist, you even partially admitted it above anyway. As far as I am concerned you do not deserve to vote in your country. You offend me. This conversation is OVER.
Your loss. He still had the land and the power, and you have nothing. I find it funny that you see such humanity in one side, and see monsters on the other. So much for you're enlightened attitude. I guess we can see exactly where we would end up in your future.

quote:
GOD this is annoying!
Thank God you don't have to listen to him. Imagine if he were running your life?

[ January 12, 2005, 11:50 PM: Message edited by: Tezcatlipoca ]

Posts: 1272 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Sancselfieme
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Tez, you disgrace logic in your attempts to refute anything. Examples like your equivocation of the Egyptians to all Arabs to Palestinians and your extremist brinksmanship arguing style are only two examples of what is wrong with your post. I can see you are NOT looking for logical conversation, just picking up your straw men for another run.


I sincerely hope that someday someone will show you how unproductive a gung-ho, militant attitude is without hurting you too badly, with such an attitude you will undoubtedly, eventually, provoke the wrong person. Always remember the veil of ignorance before rushing off to adopt power as a basis for respect. Violence in return of violence is not the answer. If you have to view it as a might makes right perspective then just remember, even the strong have to sleep. Of course I am not advocating total surrender, but since you are so fond of the Take-it-to-Extremes Straw Man Challenge I shall end this conversation with you.

[ January 13, 2005, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
kelcimer
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Sanc said:
I shall end this conversation with you.

But you won't. You come back and keep coming back to threads you say you are through with.

Why say this when you know you don't mean it? Are you conscious of how much of a drama queen you are being?

And isn't an unwillingness to continue talking that ends civilized interactions? Be they personal, international, or otherwise? Doesn't stating that you are though with talking put you much closer to being barberous, opposed to civilized interactions?

And if you can't bare to continue a discussion with strangers whom you have no history with aside form this board, how can you blame anyone in the middle east when they quit talking?

Would that not be hypocritical?

[ January 13, 2005, 12:33 AM: Message edited by: kelcimer ]

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Tezcatlipoca
Member
Member # 1312

 - posted      Profile for Tezcatlipoca     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Tez, you disgrace logic in your attempts to refute anything. Examples like your equivocation of the Egyptians to all Arabs to Palestinians and your extremist brinksmanship arguing style are only two examples of what is wrong with your post. I can see you are NOT looking for logical conversation, just picking up your straw men for another run.
My, that was quite vague. At least I had the courtesy to point out where I thought you sounded childish with your logic. I see can see that you aren't looking for conversation at all, only agreement. If it really is so unlogical, then why don't you tear me down like a badly constructed wall? I would actually prefer you to, because then you might prove that I am wrong instead of simply assuming it.

quote:
I sincerely hope that someday someone will show you how unproductive a gung-ho, militant attitude is without hurting you too badly, with such an attitude you will undoubtedly, eventually, provoke the wrong person.
So, summing that up you basically hope that someone kicks my ass. I find that quite funny, because you have just shown that you can't even do that for yourself. So now all I have to do is look out for that other person, you have just shown me that you are un-willing to stand up for yourself, and that I can do with you what I want.

quote:
Always remember the veil of ignorance before rushing off to adopt power as a basis for respect.
If respect is based upon intelligence, then why do gangs have leaders? I find it amusing that you have such a limited view on the world that you assume that respect can only come from understand other people's point of view. I don't have to understand a virus like AIDS to respect the power of it and take measures to protect myself against it.

quote:
Violence in return of violence is not the answer.
Perhaps, perhaps not. But turning the other cheek will only garuntee that such violence continues against you. But if you protect yourself from such violence by fighting back, you at least give yourself a chance to be free.

"Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum"

quote:
If you have to view it as a might makes right perspective then just remember, even the strong have to sleep.
So? Did you forget I keep a gun under the pillow? [Smile]

quote:
Of course I am not advocating total surrender
Of course you aren't advocating that. I understand what you are saying, believe it or not. The problem is that it won't work in reality. Israel would not last if they did not stay in the majority of their country, and it will result for a total surrender in the end anyway. Your view's of the innocent Palestinians waiting patiently to go back to their homes is just too naive. These people do not care about the state of Israel, they hate it so much they declared war on it even before it was formed. Call me harsh, I will be the one who will be around when the fight is over, just like the Israelis are still around today.

quote:
but since you are so fond of the Take-it-to-Extremes Straw Man Challenge I shall end this conversation with you.
Like I said before, it is your loss. I could only lose by accomidating you, as I keep giving you opportunity to convince me of doing. Now that you have decided to leave the conversation, I still have the land and the power.
Posts: 1272 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FiredrakeRAGE
Member
Member # 1224

 - posted      Profile for FiredrakeRAGE   Email FiredrakeRAGE   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sancselfieme -

I actually tend to agree with most of Tezcatlipoca's position. While 'all Palestinians are bad' is probably racist, immigration controls are pretty standard. The United States has a long history of immigration control. We also have a line in the Constitution limiting the office of the President to natural-born citizens.

I would add that I believe in the power of the individual. One person can make a difference - they merely need to be in a position to seize the opportunity.

--Firedrake

Posts: 3538 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
what i ment to say in: "you see, their country , democracy or not, will never amount to anything good, like all the other arab countries"

was not racist by any means, it was just stating the fact.
tell me this, did Egypt, Suria, Lybia, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia etc. did ANYTHING for the good of the world? i cant think of nothing, and OIL doesnt count, and not all arab countries have it any way.

so i am deducting that since ALL EXISTING arab countries "suck" this new arab country will also "suck". but i am in favour of them having a country of their own dont get me wrong here. and they can do in that country WHATEVER they want they can even prove me wrong and invent warp speed engines if they want. as long as they do it in THEIR country and dont step in to MY country

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sanc, I don't know who you're referring to, but Abu Mazen (Mahmoud Abbas) was the prohibitive leader in ALL the polls, and did indeed win by a very large margin. I don't know which candidate you're referring to because Marwan Barghouti, who is still in jail, eventually decided not to run, and even when he was considering, there was only one poll that gave hom the lead.

Hannibal, no Arab country is democratic, so you can't possibly know what any of them would be if they were.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
i didnt mean it as an hypothetical situation, i stated that, democracy or not, all arab coutries are no good. there the only reason why the palestinians are democratic was because they lived along israel all these years.

and still Even though they are a democracy, i doubt they will be up to any good.

but lets leave that for a moment, ricky, i whould appriciate if you read my discussion here with sancse, and see what did i do wrong to make him redicule me all the time, calling me a facist and a racist. i think that in general i stated the view of all israelis on this matter.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mouser
Member
Member # 2252

 - posted      Profile for Mouser   Email Mouser       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There seems to be a challenge associated with the Arab world vis-a-vis Israel.

The challenge can be summarized in the following manner:

"If the Arabs would put down their guns, there would be no conflict. If the Israelis put down their guns, there would be no Israel."

The Israelis have been fighting for their lives since the moment they declared a state.

800,000 refugees from Arab countries settled in Israel between 1948 and 1956, and they don't live in "refugee camps." They and their families are fully integrated into Israeli society.

Yet, 600,000 "Palestinian" refugees left Israel during the same time period, and they still live in squalor. There has been no integration. These "Moslems" have treated their coreligionists with contempt and hatred.

So much for "The Islamic State" as an expression of compassion. It's not like they're exactly cash strapped.

Posts: 12 | Registered: Jan 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1