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Author Topic: Miscellaneous Chat
OrneryMod
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I am going to pin this to the top. However, if it goes a week with no posts, it is coming down.

OrneryMod

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RickyB
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This doesn't come close to Alien Psycho Girl. Sorry. Some of the more deranged stuff i've seen on accidental visits to the democratic underground qualifies, but this is about ten times saner and less foaming at the mouth - which leaves it still plenty venomous [Smile]
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KnightEnder
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OM,

About OSC, glad to hear it.

I just finished Pattern Recognition. It was good, but I felt like I needed a dictionary sitting by me the whole time. And I'm not talking about the words that he makes up and you have to derive the meaning from the context.

I've been reading steadily since I was nine years old, have a college education, and at least an average, if not better, vocabulary and I can't remember the last time I encountered so many words I didn't know in one book. So, who is this guy writing for?

It reminds me of the Mash in which Radar uses a thesaraus to write stories for his "learn to be a writer by mail course", or a more recent example, Joey on Friends writing a reference letter for Chandler and Monica's adoption attempt. Isn't it desirable to convey your meaning to your audience, if not as simply as possible, at least with words that the average reader understands? OSC draws beautiful pictures with his words and never makes me feel like I'm lost, or an idiot.

RB,

Is APG Anne Coulter?

KE

[ February 11, 2005, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
I haven't read any of Gibson's other works, and I haven't finished Pattern Recognition (so I may be stating the obvious), but this sounds like a definition for many, probably most, humans. Don't most religious folk look for God (or Allah's, etc.) hand in their lives? Don't even some nonreligious folk accept the idea of purpose? Isn't that why we love stories so much? Because they give us patterns in our lives of random data?
Indeed, say I. Regarding religion, my fave quote on its value comes from Paul Park (a more or less sci-fi writer who's often treated religious themes). Roughly paraphrased, he said that 'religion makes use of humanity's vast reservoirs of irrationality'.

Said irrationalty is what allows us to be sentient, yea, even rational, beings. Random association analysis. Run enough nonsense through the hopper and find the patterns within. One's brain is that roomful of monkeys with typewriters accidentally typing out all of Shakespeare's complete works... except that we monkeys attempt to do so with conscious teleology. Borges' famous Library of Babel addresses this both elegantly and exhaustively in only a few pages. (There was only ONE Borges.)

I believe the cosmos is teleological too. Not necessarily sentient. While I like imagining a Mind of God, I see insufficient evidence for such beyond speculation. But our very existence in this corner of the cosmos, planning and striving, is highly teleological. I don't know about y'all but I'm typing on Earth, Teleology Central.

Afterthought: the nice thing about directing one's apophenic tendencies to the Beyond vis a vis Allah et cetera, is that it tends to minimize doing so in mundane physcial matters. (When one intrudes apophenia too much into ratrional affairs, one can do very sad things like run several red lights in a row to prove that 'God is with me' and , as a result, commit vehicular manslaughter, as happened with my best friend who suffers from paranoid schizophrenia with delusions of messianic grandeur. More mundanely, one can conclude that everything is affected by sinister plots by the Clinton Consortium or the Bush Regime.)

But apohenic deism and mysticism WILL intrude on secular matters. Hence my endorsement of a separation of church & state.

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simplybiological
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KE,
gibson writes for book snobs like me- i recall swooning over his use of unconventional language when i read it (sara read a sci-fi book? yes, she did).

stay far away from everything tom robbins writes if you didn't like pattern rec.

i don't think an author is at all obligated to use exclusively the language that the average reader can understand... you are thinking, perhaps, more about the language as a means of progressing the plot, when the language itself can be vital. i thought that the word choice gibson used was integral in creating the feeling of distance the main character has from other people.

average is really quite dull- wouldn't you rather be challenged than sail through a book that reads like every other book?

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
gibson writes for book snobs like me- i recall swooning over his use of unconventional language when i read it (sara read a sci-fi book? yes, she did).
To me, he's the first 'genre' writer to meet the standard raised by Nabokov in the 50s/60s to writers of English prose. It ws one thing when Updike and the like accepted the challenge and turned their prose into alchemical manifestations of seemingly direct sensory input via verbiage, but when Gibson did so with the inherently surreal landscape available to sci-fi... whew.

quote:
i don't think an author is at all obligated to use exclusively the language that the average reader can understand... you are thinking, perhaps, more about the language as a means of progressing the plot, when the language itself can be vital. i thought that the word choice gibson used was integral in creating the feeling of distance the main character has from other people.

Nabokov forced me to read with a dictionary by my side. I am forever in the debt of this Russian ex-pat who taught English writers a deeper and greater appreciation and command of their native language. The following describes, tangentially, what that feels like:

“As a wordsmith and an artist, Thomas cherished the tools of his trade, lavishing them with respectful care and visiting their stores often. He usually carried a dictionary with him wherever he went. It was a 1941 Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary (Fifth Edition), the largest abridgement of Webster’s New International Dictionary (Second Edition), hardbound in dark vellum the color of dried blood, with a gold embossed colophon and 1,275 pages of text printed on paper so translucently thin as to allow for the illustration of a katydid on page 550 to be viewed simultaneously with the drawing for ‘kangaroo’ on page 549. An image of Krishna playing a flute while standing upon a serpentine wreath of intertwined cobras displayed on page 558 could be seen, visually superimposed, upon a collective illustration of seamen’s knots on page 557. Interroped cobras. The very word – superimposed – was a typical compound verbal instrument, stacking the semanticisms for “place”, “in” and “over” on top of each other in a semantical overlay – or superimposition – of meaning.

“For Thomas, this dictionary was the primal omnibus, the map of the Library of Babel, and a lexical hardware store of inexhaustible exactitude and gradations of meaning which parsed the spectrum of meanings, from violet’s ultra indigo through crimson’s dark stains, with not infinite but surely ample shades of grey.

“He loved the way words functioned as part of a comprehensive mental toolkit. All words were utile enough, but this was especially true of the vocabularies of science, religion and philosophy. Such words, largely derived from Greek and Latin origins, worked like meticulous devices to expand, contract, contain, combine, divide, refine, corrupt, focus, obscure, add to, take away, begin, halt, extend, retract, extract, dissolve, involve, convolve, evolve, devolve, interleave, interweave, intricate, extricate, complicate, simplify, replicate, singularise, multiply, relate, equate, vindicate, negate, fabricate... damn near any thing conceivable or any conceivable thing...

“This particular dictionary had originally been a gift to the Holy Names College in Spokane, Washington from the St. Mary’s Academy in Portland, Oregon, as attested by a handwritten dedication on the inside jacket which passed the gift on to the Convent of the Holy Names of Spokane. Thomas acquired it for twenty-five cents from the booky dustbin of a St. Vincent de Paul thrift store in Union Gap, Washington.

“Inside were a few pressed flowers, possibly older than Thomas, filed in place by their definitions, like examples of spontaneous generation or leftovers from absentminded sorcerers who, attempting to manifest a thing magically, had looked up the precise pronunciation of the object to be incantationally materialized.

“Neither too heavy nor too light, it fit into an old leathern camera case and stayed in John’s knapsack when he was afoot. The supply of metatools it contained was beyond enormous, an array of ideal components in a literal warehouse of imagination. He called it, rightly enough, the Book of Holy Names.

“Especially he enjoyed the way one word construed another – bracing, planing, conjoining, piercing, pivoting, sanding, dressing, shellacing or painting the other – and the way a verbal tool could be modified by another. A chosen prefix, properly attached to a main word’s handle end, affixed itself thereto with a precise semantical click. The addition of a suffix correctly applied to the other end provided the exact extension needed to adjust the meaningful rotation of the now compliant cosmos, to twist and tighten it properly until it aligned with the cant of Thomas’ thought. Properly used, a precise definition held Reality secure in flexible gimbals mounted in symbological bedrock, while he gyred about his sentient self, soaring amid the rising convection of earnest thought, jumping from ship to shore et vice versa via mixed metaphors like the one now spiraling above its compass below...

“ ‘Arcanum exotica'. 'Delirium tremens'. 'Theophany'. 'Ultramundane.’ The joy, the sanity of words on paper, appearing like shadows behind a Japanese screen. One needed a desk. One needed a sense of anonymity from which to read and divine, to fabricate the truth in safety. Thomas spent a lot of time in the library.

“The act of writing was other-worldly. It involved something like perfect faith, an immediate acceptance of and projective belief in one’s imagination. There was, in Thomas’ mind, the sense of a thin but powerful membrane dividing that which he knew he knew from that which he didn’t know he knew, like the surface of a body of water which, viewed from one angle, reflects sky, upturned clouds, a few upside down details but – viewed from another angle, reveals an alluring green world that the swimmer can’t resist and, in a splash, is part of.

“Writing was like that. Thomas could hover a long time at the page’s edge, awkward and unsure, then immerse and be in another world. Overworking a metaphor was like holding one’s breath too long; the need to surface became overpowering and, in a gasp, it was over.

“The world was again thick and impenetrable, the library heavy and still, aglare with the oppressive weight of overhead fluorescent lighting. Sequestering his books and notes packwise, Thomas left the building for the comforting chill of fog, winter and hunger.”

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simplybiological
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In Nabokov's memoirs he writes a lot about entomology, one of my favorites (about spreading a butterfly):
"[T]he satisfying crackle produced by the pin penetrating the hard crust of its thorax; the careful insertion of the point of the pin in the
cork-bottomed groove of the spreading board; the symmetrical adjustment of the thick, strong-veined wings under the neatly affixed strips of semitransparent paper."
The word "satisfying" makes the excerpt.

[ February 11, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: simplybiological ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Nabokov and Borges came into American mainstream vogue about the same time: late 50s/early 60s.The former was verbose, writing 'long-chain polymer' sentences, the latter, laconic; although Borges often wrote labyrinthine sentences in his early years, his stories rarely exceeded 10 pages and often limited themselves to 3 or 4.

Borges' icon of self is the image of an aged blind librarian (which indeed he was) wandering among books he remembered but could no longer read. Nabokov's lingering image is of the lepidopterist, a novelist with net in hand pursuing the rare verbal flutter in swamps, deserts, shopping malls...

[ February 11, 2005, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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KE:

Here's your list man:

Talking Points

Dig the archives with a search function, pinpoint it to a given bit of breaking news (he's fairly real time), and you'll find an amazingly exhaustive Concordance of Bushllit.

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KnightEnder
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Thanks KL. I'm walking out the door but I look forward to seeing it.

KE

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FiredrakeRAGE
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With regard to Gibson's language use -

Snow Crash is a good example of a book that does this right. There is vocabulary that is not in the 'average' vocabulary. However that vocabulary is used in such a manner that the flow of the story is uninterrupted.

In Pattern Recognition, Gibson seems to have no such goal. The story is corrupted by the need to intersperse it with esoteric vocabulary.

--Firedrake

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kenmeer livermaile
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The Talking Points was recommended to me by, in fact, William Gibson, who said of it:

[B[ It never ceases to amaze me, how Josh Marshall can keep this administration's lies sorted, handily enough to cite and refute them, crisply and authoritatively, day after day. This must amount by now to knowing two entirely different versions of history off by heart, the one genuine, the other an endlessly (and indeed artlessly) exfoliating "tissue of sheerest horse*****"

Here, today, he does it again, skewering the sort of shameless (not to say surreal, grotesque) revisionism that no long even causes our jaws to drop. Myself, were I to daily and directly subject myself to the full blast of ill-crafted lies issuing from the White House, I would quickly grow punchdrunk and confused. I simply wouldn't have the stomach for it. Not so Josh Marshall. Long may he wave.

*Wm. S. Burroughs, 1914-1997 [/B]

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
In Pattern Recognition, Gibson seems to have no such goal. The story is corrupted by the need to intersperse it with esoteric vocabulary.

I understand your point, but my preference leads the other way. I enjoy Gibson's verbal fetishes. His prose is 'real' to me. (What does THAT mean?) It has an inevitability to it. I can almost feel the topographical relief of his sentences. Even when, as in Pattern Recognition, Gibson's palette feels muted, almost B & W, it still has this sense, to me, of being 'real' somewhere else. Not the story or the charcters -- those I judge by an entirely different measure of writer's craft -- but as verbal artifacts.

Stephenson writes wonderful prose, and spins an amazing yarn -- he's a better yarnsmith than Gibson, which I suspect is something with which Gibson would agree -- but there are paragraphs, even pages, where I just see words, arrayed much better than the average writer's, but just words nonetheless.

It's almost like that phenomenon Gibson mentions in the book: voices coming from recorded material played backwards or slowed down or what have you.

His prose FEELS like one of those precise Swiss watches of which, I understand, he is very fond. Chronometer fetish. I think that what I sense is the ABSENCE of so much effluvia, the shadows of countless words edited out by what I assume is a VERY painstaking method. He's quite the verbal economist, and yet he bever feels clipped or pinched to me, except thiose passages where a sense of pinched clipping is what he wishes to evoke.

It takes all kinds. WHile I thought Snowcrash was an AMAZING book, I'll probably never read another Stephenson book. But i'LL READ EVERYTHING BY gIBSON. fUNNY, HUH?

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kenmeer livermaile
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Since we've mentioned odd physchic syndromes:

Weird Brain States

"Damage to the front of the temporal lobe and the amygdala just below it can result in the strange condition called Kluver-Bucy Syndrome. Classically, the person will try to put anything to hand into their mouths and typically attempt to have sexual intercourse with it. A classic example is of the unfortunate chap arrested whilst attempting to have sex with the pavement"

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kenmeer livermaile
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"but there are paragraphs, even pages, where I just see words, arrayed much better than the average writer's, but just words nonetheless."

Clarification: this refers to Snowcrash.

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KnightEnder
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KL,

Thanks, just had a chance to check it out. Unfortunately, searching the archives is going to take a bit of work. I was hoping for more of a list. I think what I'll do, as my new hobby when I'm not playing poker, is make the list and cross-reference it with the pertinent facts. Hopefully I'll have it finished before Bush runs for his third term. [Frown]

My boy told me a joke today based on the "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach him too fish, feed him for a lifetme." It goes; "start a fire for a man, keep him warm for a day, set him on fire, keep him warm for the rest of his life." Kids. [Razz]

An old riddle, perhaps, I hope, out of date.

A man and his son are riding in a car when they have a terrible accident. The man is killed and the son is taken to the emergency room for surgery. The surgeon comes in and says; "I can't work on this boy, he's my son." How can that be? [Confused]


It ocurred to me the other day that the term "Indian Giver" is not a slander on indians (native Americans, whatever), but on us. Because we are the one's that gave the Indians things, then took them back. [Smile]

See, without this new MC posting thread you all would be deprived of all that. [Wink]

KE

[ February 12, 2005, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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msquared
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The doctor is his mother.

How about this one.

A house has 4 southern exposures. A bear is running towards the house. What color is the bear?

msquared

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KnightEnder
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m2 excellent and correct.

I first heard that on an episode of "All in the Family" a couple of decades ago. That's why I said I hope it is out of date. For example, my oldest son 15 got it right away, but my mom and stepfather never did. So maybe we have become less sexist?

Maybe you should put **Spoiler** or **Answer to Riddle** at the top of your post? I'm still thinking about yours and if anybody figures m2's out please put spoiler or Answer to Bear Riddle before the answer.

Edited to add:

**Answer to Bear Riddle** ________________________________________________________________________White.



KE

[ February 12, 2005, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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Did bloggers exist when OSC wrote Ender's Game? I didn't know about them at the time, and if they didn't, I am amazed at OSC's ability to see into the future. Demeosthenes and Locke, I mean.

KE

[ February 12, 2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
Did bloggers exist when OSC wrote Ender's Game? I didn't know about them at the time, and if they didn't, I am amazed at OSC's ability to see into the future. Demeosthenes and Locke, I mean.
No, they didn't. Not unless you count a few researchers posting findings on college computers 'bloggers'. Bulletin boards were already in progress, as I recall, but were usually limited to a local campus's network.

But... Ender's Game was first published in 1985. William Gibson's Neuromancer was published in 1983. This book (and some previous short stories by Gibson), first introduced the term and concept of cyberspace to Westerners.

So the concept of digital fora was probably already established in the sci-fi genre. Nonetheless, Card's extrapolation of how fora could produce a new aristocracy of ideas seems to me very prescient, something that has yet to be fully realized but the germ of which can be seen on the web and in fora like Ornery.

Card seems to have a talent for condensing conjectures into raw essence, encysted in forms small enough to withstand projection into the future without losing the features that allow us to recognize it here and now. Perhaps this is related to his knack for writing extremely condensed prose that paints images not by providing background but, instead, bu sticking to a very few telling details and requiring one's imagination to fill in the rest.

It's not my preferred style but it works EXTREMELY well (in Ender's Game, at least) and makes Card, for me, THE heir apparent to Old Man Heinlein's corner of the genre.

It seems to me that Card took ancient Grek and Roman Senate patterns and extrapolated them into the idea of a world wifde digital communication network. Part of what makes it seem so prescient is that he restrained his version of Cyberia to typed text, which matches mainstream net usage now (bit probably not 20 years from now, when print types ('scuse pun, please) like us will be very old hats.

I think he did this out of his own textual bias and an understanding that the power of text, which can be edited, read and reread over and over, and examined in minutiae, will still be the preferred communicational province of intellectual movers and shapers of the future (which, in 1985, the year 2005 very much was).

Card in Ender's Game seems politically very savvy. I can't help but feel that his columns are written with an ulterior motive. Not insioncerely, per se, but more than meets the eye.

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
Thanks, just had a chance to check it out. Unfortunately, searching the archives is going to take a bit of work. I was hoping for more of a list. I think what I'll do, as my new hobby when I'm not playing poker, is make the list and cross-reference it with the pertinent facts. Hopefully I'll have it finished before Bush runs for his third term
Googol 'list of bush lies' and such and you'll get lots of them animals. Most of them will be crude, almost as if they were designed by Bush campaign headquarters to be easily shot down on technicalities. ('This wasn't REALLY a lie; et cetera.')

Thewy would, however, provide excellent resource quotes for googoling the background skinny on them, which might be a faster way of getting to the roots.

But for when you want only the best and exhaustive details, the Talking Points guy will prove a great freind. The problem is he's TOO good. He's on top of a policy squawk from the first bleat. By the time it's mainstreamed, he may have moved on to something else, only referencing back ton the issue as further rumbles of absurdity echo back like a T-storm receding into the eastern hor

So perhaps the best way to use him is to googol an event first and trace the time stamp back to the start. That's probably where you'll find him all over the thing, and where you'll find some deep giblets in the gravy.izon...

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kenmeer livermaile
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!!!!****SPOILER****!!!!

quote:
A house has 4 southern exposures. A bear is running towards the house. What color is the bear?
White. Polar bear. Only a house on the North Pole would have 4 southern exposures. (Actually, it would have one circumferential southern exposure, but that would confuse the riddle.)

At the North Pole, there are only 2 directions? North (anything above the horizon) and South (anything on land). East and West would exist only as geographical names of convenience, like East and West hemispheres, and as fore and aft lines of the sun's direction of motion across the sky?

"The irony is that you have to go in to get out."

[ February 13, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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cperry
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KE - I think, also, that you have to be in the mood for a book that makes you work for it. Some books are fluff. What's fluff for me is hard work for my daughter. Etc. But sometimes I need fluff and other times I need to earn a good story. The feeling of reward makes it worth the effort!

That said, I heard OSC speak at our state English teacher's conference last October, and he applauded writers such as Asimov for telling a story cleanly.

I wonder if there aren't more ways to value literature. Plot, certainly, is one quality, but Grisham and Clancy have mastered plot, and I don't think of them as writers of classics. King, in my opinion, has mastered characterization, but I'm not sure where he's going to end up in terms of passing the test of time. In the end, it's writers who give us a good plot, believable characters, and quality literature (I think of it as poetry posing as prose) who last. Genre writers have a tougher chore because their stories eventually become dated by default, but if the characters, theme, and style are good enough, readers 200 years from now will probably forgive them (think Brave New World or Frankenstein).

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cperry
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KE - I found this and thought you might like it:

"Teleology is a defining characteristic of intellectual disciplines that are recognized as unscientific or should be, like religion, astrology, evolutionary psychology, and retirement planning." http://www.homestead.com/flowstate/Dteleology.html

You wrote: "But apohenic deism and mysticism WILL intrude on secular matters."

I like to think I apply my tendency to this only after the fact rather than a test of it. Is that more or less rational? (Certainly safer than running red lights!)

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cperry
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Do you know this one?

Metaphors

I'm a riddle in nine syllables.
An elephant, a ponderous house,
A melon strolling on two tendrils.
O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers!
This loaf's big with its yeasty rising.
Money's new-minted in this fat purse.
I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf.
I've eaten a bag of green apples,
Boarded the train there's no getting off.
~Sylvia Plath

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:

"Teleology is a defining characteristic of intellectual disciplines that are recognized as unscientific or should be, like religion, astrology, evolutionary psychology, and retirement planning."

Cute quip about retirement. I find that self-avowed 'rationalists' have an irrational fear of or bias against teleological notions. Just like no one knows the how of primogenesis, no one knows the why -- or not -- of whatever purpose the cosmos might have.

quote:
I like to think I apply my tendency to this only after the fact rather than a test of it. Is that more or less rational? (Certainly safer than running red lights!)
Seems to me that what evolution claims to have happened is de facto teleology. Guys like Stephen Jay Gould bent themselves inside out arguing against this, stating that the accidents of nature, while wondrous and remarkable, were only accidents and nothing else.

This misses the point that, accidents or not, they DO tend to march in a steady direction. Purpose is as purpose does (empirical results ) just as much as purpose is as purpose plans or ponders (sentience or teleological hard-wiring of natural laws).

I like to say that the reason we're here is to wonder why we're here. Think of it as job security?

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
A melon strolling on two tendrils.
O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers!
This loaf's big with its yeasty rising.
Money's new-minted in this fat purse.

Fantastic poetry, but too complex to be an effective riddle. 9 syllables? Oh well, it's worth it for the War of the World's cantaloupe...
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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
Genre writers have a tougher chore because their stories eventually become dated by default, but if the characters, theme, and style are good enough, readers 200 years from now will probably forgive them (think Brave New World or Frankenstein).
Gibson's "Pattern Recognition" is unique. It is not science-fiction nor is it an attempt to 'tyranscend the genre' ('tyranscend': neat typo) nor an attempt to be accepted as a mainstream author. Gibson has often and wryly commented on the increasing difficulty of describing a future dystopia that was distinguishable from modern reality without resorting to sci-fi parlor tricks and self-conscious 'Heinleiners' ('the door dilated').

When Michael Jackson married Lisa Marie Presley, he mourned with a chuckle, "My job has gotten that much harder."

And so, in "Pattern Recognition", the lens is inverted. We do not read of an hypothetical future world attempted to be rendered 'realistically', we read of an hypothetical contemporary world attempted to be rendered with fidelity sufficient to the surreality it inspires.

The future, in Gibson's case, IS what it used to be. Comparison: Voltaire used sci-fi conceits in much of his fiction: Micromegas, for example. But it is Candide, with its insertion of real happenings of that crazy time, that is most satisfyingly fantastic and realistic at the same time. Compare Candide to Gulliver's Travels. GT was meant as political satire but that is lost to us now and becomes strictly a fantasy tale with some lingering effectiveness in its more obvious metaphors. Candide speaks even more clearly today of the questions it asked and protests it made, yet seems even MORE surreal in its unwincing reality than Swift's Lilliputions...

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kenmeer livermaile
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A bit of rhyme from me friend Doctor Popeye:

Quantum Man

You see me as "phenomenon,"
So says the Doktor Kant-ly;
I fancy me as "noumenon,"
If somewhat nonchalantly.
Perceptions false and true entwined
About the self provide
A coy facade of masks behind
Which each of us can hide.
I shimmer thus, a quantum soul,
In every place and none
You cannot know my nature whole
Which makes life much more fun.

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kiddo
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Happy Valentines Day MW
[Wink]

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cperry
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9 syllables per line...
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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
9 syllables per line...
I was afraid of that. I wouldn't know a dactylic hexameter from a chili dog with onions...
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cperry
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Well, I could not determine, in my attempts to scan this poem, a defined metrical pattern, beyond the limit of 9 syllables per line.

But that's the only hint I'm giving!

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foliated
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hm. since we're trading puzzles, here's one i like. maybe some of you know this one, but here it is:

you have a cup of coffee, and a cup of cream next to each other on a table. I take a teaspoon of cream and put it in the coffee. Then I take a teaspoon of the (inhomogeneous!) coffee-cream mixture, and put it in the cup of cream.

So, is there now more cream in the coffee, or more coffee in the cream?

apropos of nothing, really, but suggested by this question to make a "quote of the day":

"I like my sugar with coffee and cream!"
-Beastie Boys

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
Well, I could not determine, in my attempts to scan this poem, a defined metrical pattern, beyond the limit of 9 syllables per line.

But that's the only hint I'm giving!

That's quite the tongue-in-cheek bulge. Purloined letter technique wins AGAIN.

But I;ve no idea what the term for a nine syllable verse meter might be. A platypus nineamus?

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KnightEnder
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More cream in the coffee. [Confused]

On another thread I said "Nobody say nothing", then some very clever person registered under the name Nobody and posted the single word "nothing", then unregistered. So, who was Nobody? I'm sure you won't get in any trouble, and it was very funny. [Big Grin] (My money is on m2)

I'm sorry you unregistered, my next post was going to be;

"Who knows the trouble I've seen?

Who knows my sorrow?" [Frown]


*Another riddle, a tough one this time. Of course not too tough for the geniuses here at OA.

Three men walk into a hotel and ask for a room. The desk clerk says fine that'll be $30 dollars and gives them a key. After the men have gone up to their room the manager comes in and asks the clerk how much he charged them for the single room. The clerk says $30 dollars. The manager says; "no, that room is on special this week and is only $25 dollars." He then gives the clerk five $1 dollar bills and tells him to go give the three guys there money back.

On the way up the clerk decides that the three guys can't split five dollars evenly, so he pockets two of the $1 dollar bills and gives the men the remaining three $1 dollar bills.

So, each man gets $1 dollar bill back, which means each man has paid $9 dollars. $9 dollars times the 3 men is $27 dollars. So, they've paid $27 dollars total. Plus the two $1 dollar bills in the clerks pocket, the $28th & $29th dollars.

What happened to the thirtieth dollar bill?

(The room had three beds and these guys were just friends. Don't want anyone refusing to attempt to answer the riddle on moral grounds.) [Wink]

KE

[ February 14, 2005, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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cperry
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"platypus nineamus"

Oh yeah! Better than dactylic hexameter.

What happened to the thirtieth dollar bill?
It got its own room?

Here's another clue (I lied): Ignore the first line. The others give it away. Really.

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cperry
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Kenmeer wrote:
"Card in Ender's Game seems politically very savvy. I can't help but feel that his columns are written with an ulterior motive. Not insioncerely, per se, but more than meets the eye."

Care to venture a guess as to what that motive might be?

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kenmeer livermaile
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quote:
Care to venture a guess as to what that motive might be?
Well, I would look at those concepts he expounds most vociferously with the least logical substantiation. Then I would consider that by so doing, he emulates a certain brand of rhetoric (often associated with the Right but not always) in a way unflattering to it when read by inquisitive Ornery types. This DOESN'T necessarily mean he's trying to demean certain reight-wing positions by advocating them intensely but poorly. I'm saying that by so doing, he causes the issues to be fiercely debated. He emboldens the Right by expounding many of their ideas; he emboldens the Lleft by expounding them so poorly.
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Storm Saxon
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Really fascinating reading which has caused me to re-evaluate my stance against the death penalty.

Who'll stop the reign?

quote:

Gregory Jessner shares roughly the same lifetime with the Aryan Brotherhood. He was 3 years old when they were founded in 1964 by Irish bikers in the exercise yard at San Quentin Maximum Security Prison, just 15 miles north of where he grew up. As a boy, he played with the children of Faye Stender, the radical defense attorney who was later paralyzed in an assassination attempt traced to the Black Guerrilla Family, another prison gang against whom, according to legend, the Aryan Brotherhood was formed to fight. Now, Jessner is preparing to face off against what is perhaps the most murderous and feared criminal gang in the country.



[ February 15, 2005, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Storm Saxon ]

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