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Author Topic: New Schiavo thread
Dave at Work
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How about an answer to the question presented in my final paragraph? Is withholding nutrition and water an acceptable resolution to this matter? Taking this further, would it be ethical to execute death row inmates by this means or do you think that such executions would be deemed cruel and unusual punishment? Should we now stop charging people with creulty to animals when they starve their pets? As I said before I do not know what all the facts are in this case. I do believe that starvation and thirst are cruel ways to end this woman's life. Even if her mind and personality are no longer there, whatever is left will, in fact is right now, feeling the effects of starvation and dehydration. Despite what you may have heard, both are long, drawn out, painfull methods of dying and she is being forced to suffer both.
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javelin
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quote:
As for why his "nomination" was bogus -- read my link. It explains why.
That's what I'm saying - the FoxNews transcript doesn't explain why.

quote:
I don't think you think the picture is "unclear".
Why do you believe that (a) I think that; and (b) you have any idea what I think?
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
That's what I'm saying - the FoxNews transcript doesn't explain why.

Go to my second link, javelin -- the one to MediaMatters.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Why do you believe that (a) I think that; and (b) you have any idea what I think?
A) I think your mind is made up, which is fine.

B) I suppose you could be trying to trick me with what you write, but I don't see why.

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Dan Allen
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quote:
Dag: But the analysis that, having a "new wife" he is no longer in the singular marital relationship that is the legal basis for his default guardianship is not only not disgusting, but far more rational.
quote:
FIJC: I am merely stating that because he has taken on a common law wife, he not longer has the legitimate legal standing to act as Terri's guardian.
Howver, this wasn't the case when he first made the decision. He has not been arguing for any new since the original one was made in '98 - only that it be upheld.

So why should the fact that he has a new wife be used to overturn a decision made before this new relationship started?

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Mike_W
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You know, I kind of agree that, in the absence of consensus, the best thing to do might be to err on the side of life. Make her a ward of the state, keep her alive for the rest of her life. But, that's not what THE LAW says. It gives the spouse the say. If you don't like it, then have that law changed.

As for the pain of starvation. Well, yes, would be much better if death was the desired outcome to do so in a more active and pain free way. But, I don't think that's what people are looking for here, is it?

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javelin
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I, who happen to know my own mind pretty well, would have to say that my mind is not made up on this issue. I'm pretty confused. I believe there is potentially credible points on both sides, and I feel that no one here, nor anywhere else that I've read, has done a good job supporting their point. If you look at every point I've made regarding this issue, I'm mostly looking for better information, and calling it when people are making arguments that really don't go anywhere. I'm not interesting in "tricking" anyone - I want to know what the truth is, and at this point, I despair of finding that out, in this case.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
I, who happen to know my own mind pretty well, would have to say that my mind is not made up on this issue. I'm pretty confused. I believe there is potentially credible points on both sides, and I feel that no one here, nor anywhere else that I've read, has done a good job supporting their point.
Well, OK, but what more do you need? It's not like I'm going around advocating that we euthanize all the disabled. In this specific case , Terri's legal guardian has consistently made the claim that she expressed a desire not to live like this. Multiple courts (more than any Joe Average would ever get to hear his case/appeals) have found his position more credible.

I don't like it. I just think the alternative is worse.

Meanwhile, various folks on the other "side" (grandstanding congresscritters) in this fiasco have supported a law in Texas that allows hospitals to remove feeding tubes from patients who run out of money over the objections of their guardians. They also support cutting Medicaid to help hasten that event. Most support tort reform that would have kept Schiavo from recovering the damages she did. Senator Frist, in the past, has supported widening the definition of "brain death" to people in similar states as Terri Schiavo to increase organ harvesting.

At the end of the day, it's subjective -- as most human decisions are. I don't think that she's suffering -- she's missing the centers of consciousness, so I don't think of it as a burden on her to live (other than the denial of her earlier wishes).

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Dagonee
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quote:
Howver, this wasn't the case when he first made the decision. He has not been arguing for any new since the original one was made in '98 - only that it be upheld.

So why should the fact that he has a new wife be used to overturn a decision made before this new relationship started?

I won't link it yet, because I can't find an obviously unbiased site, but everything I've seen says he's been living with this girlfriend since 1995, at least 2 years before the decision was made.
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Dave at Work
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quote:
At the end of the day, it's subjective -- as most human decisions are. I don't think that she's suffering -- she's missing the centers of consciousness, so I don't think of it as a burden on her to live (other than the denial of her earlier wishes).
I think that you have a binary situation here. Either "she" is or is not still there in her brain. If "she" is still in there, and she truly did wish not to be kept alive like this then starving and dehydrating her to death is an agonizing experience that she cannot escape until she dies after approximately two weeks of suffering. Remember that this is not a case where you can disconnect the patient from a machine that is providing a necessary bodily function and the body will die in a matter of minutes or possibly hours. We are talking weeks here. If "she" is not still there, then it doesn't matter if her body is being kept alive because "she" is already gone and what has been left behind is "just an animal". However, we would never submit an animal to starvation and dehydration to end it's life. We would euthanize that animal as quickly and as painlessly as possible.
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javelin
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Don't forget Dave - Florida doesn't allow people to be euthanized. Maybe they could fly her here to Oregon?
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Dave at Work
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Florida also doesn't allow animal cruelty.
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javelin
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Ah, but they allow cruelty to REFUGEES. [Wink]
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Dagonee
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quote:
Florida doesn't allow people to be euthanized. Maybe they could fly her here to Oregon?
Oregon doesn't allow people to be euthanized - just terminally ill people. Apparantly if one desires to commit suicide and one isn't seriously ill, one is not worthy of a dignified death.
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javelin
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Sorry, I'll be more specific in the future, Dagonee.
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Dagonee
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Not a barb aimed at you - I just see the law as hugely hypocritical and saw on opportunity to comment on it.
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The Drake
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Bring Teri over to the Golden Gate Bridge. It is a very popular and picturesque place to die, I'm told.
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simplybiological
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the complexity and conflict of all this was enough for me to call my parents and ask for the proper paperwork to make it known that i am completely fine with being offed if i am brain damaged in such a way that i will never be the SB we all know and love again.

i can read all these arguments, and at the end of the day, like the abortion issue, how you view the facts really depends on what your opinion is deep down. i'd want to die, and the idea of being kept alive when my brain is scrambled beyond recognition terrifies me, so that's how i view this case. people who feel differently, see it differently.

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Major Stubble
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quote:
Originally posted by simplybiological:
...the idea of being kept alive when my brain is scrambled beyond recognition terrifies me...

I completely agree that it would terrify me to lose my cognative processes. I was once scared s**tless by a psychology journal artical that documented the changes in personality many coma survivors exhibit after 'waking up'.

There was one story about a man who had an accident while doing some plumbing work. He fell in such a way that a metal pipe sliced out a cylinder of brain matter. Once he regained consciousness, he was like a different person. He went from a cheerful, lovable man to a heartless and cruel shadow of who he once was. In the end, he killed himself.

On the flip side of this, many of my decisions that I have made while in full command of my mental facilities have been quickly changed when I have actually been faced with the reality of the situation. I am not contending that the is the case for Terri.

However, I was once a young boy that would never harm a deer - after seeing 'Bambi' mind you. I chose never to harm a deer (a tough choice having grown up in a hunting community). This changed after one night when I nearly killed someone close to me by hitting a deer head on.

...Well, long story short time...

Now, I get my deer tags as soon as season starts.

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The Drake
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I hope they go after her parents for perjury.

Schiavo parents get emergency hearing

"A Florida state judge will rule by noon Saturday on a motion filed by Terri Schiavo's parents, who contend that their brain-damaged daughter has expressed the wish to live."

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
I hope they go after her parents for perjury.


I don't...this is bad enough already.
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RickyB
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Sorry, Ev, but from what I read, the woman is not in fact in the medical condition known as coma. I haven't finished reading the thread yet, but I didn't see anyone point this out. I still side with the husband, but I felt it important to point this out.

As for this Dr. Hammeshafer - did you know, FIJC, that Hannity lied when introducing him as a Nobel prize nominee? That the Florida health board accused him of falsely advertising a neurological treatment and exploiting a patient for financial gain? Still find his opinion as powerful?

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RickyB
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quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope they go after her parents for perjury.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't...this is bad enough already.

I second Alzabo in the strongest terms. What could possibly be gained from such prosecution, Drake? Do you really believe that anyone in similar horrible circumstances will be deterred from lying (or actually, convincing themselves of a lie)?
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Dagonee
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quote:
I hope they go after her parents for perjury.
How would you make this case beyond a reasonable doubt? Including showing intent, which means if they imagined it they're off the hook.
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The Drake
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I can't make the case. I'm just pointing out how transparent their little ploy is. I do feel sorry they haven't found the strength to say goodbye to their daughter over a decade after her accident.
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KnightEnder
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Is she hungry? Does she feel hunger since the tube has been removed? Surely not. That would be to cruel.

My little boy Jacob was 3 years old when some tables fell on him at church and cracked his skull in five places, cut the temporal lobe in his brain, broke his right orbital structure, broke his nose which released air into his brain causing it to become infected with meningitis. When I picked him up and carried him out of that church his eyes were swollen shut and blood was pouring out of his head, his nose, and his ears.

We used to have this thing when he was a baby; I would say "I love my little man" and he would reply "I love my big man", then I would say "Sweetest Jake I ever seen" and he would say "Sweetest daddy I ever seen". Silly kinda thing you say when talking to your baby.

We rushed him to the hospital which was practically across the street, and they refused to treat him, said he was beyond their ability to help. He started throwing up the blood that had run into his stomach from his broken nose, and what they told us was brain matter was running out of his ears. (Turned out to be peices of his inner ear canal and not brain tissue.)The told us that we could life-flight him but his chances of survival were slim and they didn't think he would survive the flight. We of course insisted that they fly him to Herman's Children Hospital (one of the best hospitals in the country). He got there and went through three operations. He was unconscious for about a week and his heart stopped twice while he was in the ICU.

They finally took him out of ICU and put us in a room where we could sleep with him. He hadn't talked in all this time and we didn't know if there was any brain damage or if he would be able to talk or see or function when and if he got better.

One day a couple of weeks later I was holding him in bed and talking to him. I said; "I love my little man", and he whispered "I love my big man". And I said "sweetest Jake I've ever seen" and he said "sweetest daddy I ever seen" and hugged me. I've never cried so hard in all my life. From those two sentences I knew my little boy was still in there. He still couldn't see through his swollen eyes, or get up and move around, but I knew it was still him inside.

The doctor's said it was a miracle he survived. He is running around now, 9 years later, like it never happened. He doesn't remember much. He remembers sleeping in bed with dad and mom, stuffing himself with candy, and watching Power Rangers (God I hate that movie). So, it's a good memory for him. It was the worst three weeks of my life.

But even if he had been damaged in some way I would have wanted him to survive. I would have taken him any way I could have him if he would only live. So, I kind of know how Terri's parents must feel, and I am beyond words sorry for them. A parent should not have to outlive their child. I don't know what I would have done if Jake had been in a PVS for as long as she has been. Thank God I didn't have to make the decision they have. I don't think I would be able to let go either.

Oh, and I still say to Jake; I love my little man, and he still replies, I love my big man. He's the sweetest baby I've ever seen. I never look at him that I don't think how lucky, or blessed (whatever that means to you), to have him in my life. I treasure every day I have with him.

KE

[ March 26, 2005, 12:53 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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RickyB
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Goddess, KE - that's a terrible thing to have gone through. Here's a hug, man. I'm so glad your kid came through. As for the hospital where they refused to accept him - I find that infuriating. I believe I would have punched the lights out of someone in that situation - except of course for being too busy saving my son.

Drake - I feel sorry for them too, but I don't think we should presume to judge them. Unless of course you've been in their shoes.

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KnightEnder
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Thanks Ricky, I appreciate it. [Smile] But like I said, it really makes you treasure every day you have with them.

KE

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David Ricardo
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Looks like Bush Brother Jeb was preparing to deploy his state troopers to storm a hospice protected by local Florida police officers? Sheesh, politicians abusing their powers to overrule state judicial decisions by employing naked force to change outcomes to their liking -- Big Brother state, here we are.
http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11233427.htm

quote:
MIAMI - Hours after a judge ordered that Terri Schiavo wasn't to be removed from her hospice, a team of Florida law enforcement agents were en route to seize her and have her feeding tube reinserted - but they stopped short when local police told them they would enforce the judge's order, The Miami Herald has learned.

Agents of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement told police in Pinellas Park, the small town where Schiavo lies at Hospice Woodside, that they were on the way to take her to a hospital to resume her feeding.

For a brief period, local police, who have officers around the hospice to keep protesters out, prepared for what sources called a showdown.

In the end, the state agents and the Department of Children and Families backed down, apparently concerned about confronting local police outside the hospice.

"We told them that unless they had the judge with them when they came, they were not going to get in," said a source with the local police.

"The FDLE called to say they were en route to the scene," said an official with the city police who requested anonymity. "When the Sheriff's Department, and our department, told them they could not enforce their order, they backed off."

The incident, known only to a few, underscores the intense emotion and murky legal terrain that the Schiavo case has created. It also shows that agencies answering directly to Florida Gov. Jeb Bush had planned to use a wrinkle in state law that would have allowed them to legally get around the judge's order. The exception in the law allows public agencies to freeze a judge's order whenever an agency appeals it.

Participants in the high-stakes test of wills, who spoke with The Miami Herald on the condition of anonymity, said they believed the standoff could ultimately have led to a constitutional crisis - and a confrontation between dueling lawmen.

"There were two sets of law enforcement officers facing off, waiting for the other to blink," said one official with knowledge of Thursday morning's activities. In jest, one official said local police discussed "whether we had enough officers to hold off the National Guard."

"It was kind of a showdown on the part of the locals and the state police," the official said. "It was not too long after that Jeb Bush was on TV saying that, evidently, he doesn't have as much authority as people think."



[ March 26, 2005, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: David Ricardo ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Looks like Bush Brother Jeb was preparing to deploy his state troopers to storm a hospice protected by local Florida police officers? Sheesh, politicians abusing their powers to overrule state judicial decisions by employing naked force to change outcomes to their liking -- Big Brother state, here we are."

I was an ardent Bush opponent in both elections. After the second election, I shrugged my shoulders and adopted Vive le Roi as my motto. History is as history does, and the Bush dynasty is firmly entrenched and, apparently, at the peak of its powers.

I have told folks that the only thing to change this state of affairs would be an impeachment or at least proceedings toward that end. Naturally, diehard AntiBushists concur with this while Bush supporters view this p[ossibility as scant at best.

But I observe the above action and see a recklessness that could turn the Republican party against Dubya just as it turned on Nixon:

Dubya is of liuttle use to them anymore and is rapidly becoming a liability. were I Dubya and Jeb, I would exercise caution. They've served their use to their party.

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WmLambert
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quote:
Dr. Bill HAMMESFAHR: I spent about 10 hours with Terri across three separate occasions, and I spent a lot of time with videotapes, the medical record which is in boxes and boxes and boxes. for about a year. And of course, you know, I spent time interviewing the family and people who actually have seen her. So I've spent a lot of time with her.

Terri is completely aware and conscious and responsive. She is like a child with cerebral palsy. We have kids in the Pinellas County school system every day that are much worse than her, that we're educating.

HANNITY: Doctor, wait a minute. I've got to get this straight here.

You were nominated to get a Nobel Peace Prize in this very work. Are you saying that this woman could be rehabilitated?

HAMMESFAHR: Absolutely.

HANNITY: Could she talk one day?

HAMMESFAHR: Yes.

...There's four people on the other side, who say she can't be rehabilitated. All were paid individuals. Three by George Felos.

I was not paid. Now, if you look at the people who are on Terri's side and stepped forward, at last count, two weeks ago, 33 M.D.s, brain injury specialists from around the country, places like UCLA, Tulane, LSU, Boston University --Thirty-three physicians has stepped forward to say that this person can be rehabilitated. She's not in PVS, not in a coma. And the -- Judge Greer ignored this.

ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: Dr. Ron Cranford said, "She's vegetative. She's flat out vegetative. There's never been a shread of doubt that she's vegetative, and nothing's going to change that."

Explain to me, as a lay person, what I'm supposed to believe, hearing medical authorities saying what you say and saying what Cranford says?

HAMMESFAHR: Well, I think you need to go and look at the videotape of Dr. Cranford. Dr. Cranford's videotape compliments Terri on following commands. At one point he moves a balloon around in front of her and he again compliments that she is able to see it, that she can follow commands.

And I also think that you need to look a little closer. Dr. Cranford's work has been attacked by other medical professionals in peer reviewed journals such as "Lancet." So I think that we to look a little bit deeper at Dr. Cranford.

Hammesfahr=Nobel prize level work... Cranford=attacks by peers in the journals. Greer goes with who?

David Ricardo quoted from Slate: "Congressional Republicans who have staked their careers and the last election on the "sanctity of marriage" have turned this case into a mockery of that very institution."

This is the argument of an agenda-driven activist source trying to put a non-existent spin on things. The whole matter devolves from Michael Schiavo being alleged to have ulterior motives that fly in the face of the "sanctity of marriage," and is not an 11th-hour case of Civil rights against the activist court.

A case can be made that Judge Greer once heard facts in the case—over 14 years ago, and has disallowed introduction of new facts since then, including Nurses with direct evidence of abuse and attempted murder by Michael Schiavo. One nurse's affadavit alleged Michael injected Insulin in Terri in an attempt to induce a coma. She was fired after she gave notice of her discovery, and the judge would not hear her evidence because she was a "disgruntled former employee." She lost her job because of whistleblowing, and he used the illegal firing as cause to not listen to her.

The case has come before other judges numerous times—but only to ascertain whether the law was followed with all the i's dotted and t's crossed—not whether the facts in the case were valid or in need of further review. Was this the correct court to go to? Not whether Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state or not.

The current order to remove the feediing tube is under fire because Terri Schiavo is not terminally ill, and has had no therapy of any kind for years, even though Michael won a $700,000 award to fund such therapy. It was only after he won that and another $300,000 punitive award that he offered up the idea that Terri did not wish to be kept alive in such a condition.

For nine years Michael protected her wish to live, and only after winning the judgements ordered all attempts to keep her alive withdrawn. But she endured the loss of a heart-lung machine and other artificial machines and was able to survive on her own. The doctors who report on Terri's condition says that her ability to swallow is damaged—yet she does not drool and does swallow to a degree even without therapy which the specialists in the field has guaranteed could get her to swallow and talk within months if allowed to do so.

The tricky part now is that Michael no longer has guardianship. The Court assumed that role, so when the million dollar offer was made to Michael to allow her family to assume guardianship he could not legally accept it. Greer just wants the whole thing to go away.

A sinister aspect is that disallowed testimony never allowed in fact-finding said that Terri was divorcing Michael, and on the night when she allegedly had a cardiac arrest caused by deficiency of Potassium, her Mother was coming to get her. It was brother Bob who called 911 upon finding Terri on the floor with three broken bones, not Michael. The police were going to start a homicide investigation, but Terri never died. During the trial when Michael won the $300,000 against doctos monitoring her weightloss, he specified she was never bulimic—now it is the supposed cause of her lack of potassium. The question of why he would open a court case against doctors for the cause of her condition, when he, himself, may have something to hide is answered easily. By controlling the charges he could control the fact-finding.

Many suspect his order for immediate cremation (which is against Terri's religious proclivities) is to remove evidence of prior abuse from an autopsy.

The argument that most Conservatives make is to err on the side of life. That since she is not suffering why must she be killed? Why not try the therapy which is denied to her? Since she can swallow on her own, why not allow her family to feed her orally? Judge Gereer not only ordered the feeding tube removed, he ordered no food or drink be given to her by mouth. His argument is that she might aspirate a portion of her food and drink and then catch pneumonia. Many doctors have called that fear looney.

...So the whole thing comes down to one judge who fears a future disease which shw may or may not contract, because of lack of swallowing which she may or may not have, and his opinion that she cannot regain competency, is enough jurisprudence to order Euthenasia.

Is there any wonder why so many people are worried about the precedents this judge is creating?

[ March 26, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: WmLambert ]

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KnightEnder
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I thought Hannity lied when he said Dr. H was nominated for a Nobel Prize. Which is it?

From what I've seen of her on the television, if it were my child I would not let anybody kill her.

KE

[ March 26, 2005, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Everard
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1) The doctor may have been "nominated" by his congressman, but such a nomination is not considered by the nobel committee. Such a nomination is not even considered a nomination by the nobel prize committee.

2) There is a fifty year non-disclosure policy about official nominees. If he was an official nominee, a) he wouldn't know about it b) he couldn't tell anyone if he was c) the nobel prize committee wouldn't tell anyone one way or the other.

3) The "nobel peace prize" is not awarded in medicine.

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RickyB
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Hannity lied. Some congressman wrote Dr. H. in for a Nobel, but that was a totally unsolicited "nomination" which the prize commitee does not accept nor regard in any way. I can write you in and you'd have an equal claim to be a "nobel prize nominee".

As for "This judge" - which one? The one in Tampa? The two in Atlanta? The nine in Washington? Please.

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Gaoics79
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quote:
A case can be made that Judge Greer once heard facts in the case—over 14 years ago, and has disallowed introduction of new facts since then, including Nurses with direct evidence of abuse and attempted murder by Michael Schiavo
A case can indeed be made. And I have no doubt that it was made many times to many appellate courts. The appellate courts evidently didn't find fault with any of Justice Greer's legal findings, nor did they find any of this new evidence (assuming this really is new evidence, and not just a rehash of stuff the family presumably already presented at trial) convincing enough to interfere with Greer's decision.

You talk about an "activist" court, but I find your evidence lacking. To me, an activist court is one which ignores the law in order to achieve the conclusion that it desires. I do not know of any evidence that the courts have ignored the law. The only issue seems to be the courts' findings of fact, which you happen to disagree with. Again, this is not a legal issue, so the label "activist" seems misplaced.

Indeed, ironically, it is your side of this issue that has been "activist", in that your side has consistently shown utter contempt for the courts and the law. Your side long ago concluded that its interpretation of fact was correct, and now any judge that disagrees is necessarily "activist". Any action taken to support your position, no matter how illegal or unconstitutional, is now suddenly justifiable. This seems to be the very definition of what you claim to abhor.

I am not totally familiar with Florida law, but I have yet to hear an argument come from your side that raised any substantive legal issue. The Supreme Court evidently felt the issue was not even worth commenting on. I am highly skeptical that you have a legal leg to stand on in this case.

[ March 26, 2005, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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KnightEnder
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Hannity lied? But WmLambert wrote it like it was a fact. So, surely it must be so? Or, maybe WmLambert didn't realize that Hannity was lying? Yeah, that's better.

KE

[ March 26, 2005, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Everard
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I'm not sure hannity lied. Rather, he repeated a lie. Thats not always the same thing.
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KnightEnder
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Isn't that what Dan Rather did? I hope Hannity retires in disgrace. He's a disgrace anyway.

KE

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Everard
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Yes. I was actually going to make that point. It should have been FAR easier to "vet" the question of whether this man really was a "nobel peace prize nominee" then whether the documents Rather presented were false. Hannity put undue weight upon this man's medical opinion by stating he was a nobel nominee. Whats INTERESTING is that his the florida medical board has found his patients improve AFTER treatment rather then during.

Perhaps more importantly to this particular case, the man couldn't tell the difference between a stroke, and the medical condition terri schiavo has (which is NOT due to a stroke). And his area of practice is upon stroke victims.

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Gaoics79
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Forgive a dumb question, but what does a nobel peace prize have to do with medicine?
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