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Zyne
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I said, not the effect? I guess the article left out the part about the child's family being indigent. So add that in: They're poooooor.
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Dagonee
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And this proves that had they been able to pay the child would still be alive? Despite the others who have had care pulled who could afford to pay?

No, it doesn't prove that.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Hudson, 33, said she had no prenatal care during which his condition might have been discovered.
This is what should be discussed. In Texas, where this happened, prenatal care is available and covered 100% by the state. Why didn't she take advantage of this? Why did she not do everything she could to be sure her baby had every chance to be born healthy?
Link to Houston Chronicle Baby Sun Hudson Story

KE

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D Pace
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Regarding swallowing and / or manual feeding:

"These presumed neurological facts and assertions by the Schindler family, their lawyer, Pat Anderson, and others about Terri’s neurological condition are all completely and categorically false, with one exception. Patients in a vegetative state usually retain an intact swallowing reflex and thus can swallow to some degree in an involuntary, reflex fashion. Swallowing tests performed on Terri Schiavo in 1990, 1991, and 1992 all showed severe oropharyngeal dysphagia, compatible with the vegetative state. No further swallowing tests were ever performed again in her subsequent clinical course, since Terri Schiavo never improved, and there was no valid reason for believing these swallowing tests would be any different today than they were over 10 years ago. Thus, Terri Schiavo does have the ability to swallow, like most other patients in a vegetative state, but only in a reflex fashion. The majority of adult patients in a permanent vegetative state, like Terri Schiavo, are given nutrition and hydration by a PEG tube placed in the stomach through the abdominal wall. This form of medical treatment is the safest and most effective way of supplying long term nutrition and hydration to an unconscious patient. (29)

It is possible (but highly unlikely) that, with a great deal of attention and care, and an understanding of how to optimize swallowing by using the involuntary swallowing reflex, Terri’s nutritional and hydration needs could be maintained by the oral route (as is the case in many children in a permanent vegetative state, where parents and health care professionals spend many hours at the bedside feeding these children by mouth by utilizing the involuntary swallowing reflex). But such an undertaking is medically inadvisable, as it would greatly increase the risk of aspiration pneumonia and death.

The overwhelming fact is that, whether Terri is fed via a PEG tube or fed orally, she is still in a permanent vegetative state, and the manner of feeding her will not result in any change in her clinical condition, except she would probably die much sooner were attempts made to feed her orally. So further swallowing tests would be totally meaningless in terms of the ultimate outcome of Terri’s neurological condition and state of consciousness."

http://pekinprattles.blogspot.com/2005/03/dr-cranfords-complete-terri-schiavo.html

(Dr. Cranford's take on swallowing, which I believe has indicia of reliability in that it's what he says is the one point of "the other side" he concedes as correct)

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OhPuhLeez
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Meanwhile, looks like EVERYONE wants to cash in on this.

Nope, not talking about Michael.

How about Terri's parents:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/29/politics/29donate.html?ex=1269752400&en=f1312f1b5ae170ad&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

[Roll Eyes]

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Haggis
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On top of that, the resident Demagogue/media whore that is the Rev. Jesse Jackson is now getting his name in the spotlight as he visits the Schindlers as well.
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WmLambert
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The crux in the Terri Schiavo case in in the details. Judge Greer has very clearly stated that his judgements were not based on pure fact but on which expert he accepted as credible. (As a side point, in his judgement as of February 11, 2000 he used the word "creditable" to decide which competing information to accept, and in his report of March 2, 2000, he used the correct word "credible" in the same manner.)

In his report, he often marked that a doctor used uncontroverted evidence—but upon thoughtful reading, the incontrovertible part was that the test took place on a certain date—what was not undisputed were the conclusions from those tests. So in swallowing tests, the administering techs at Bayfront and Largo noted there was no swallowing reflex present—but in another portion of the same report, it is noted that she does have involuntary swallowing reflex which comprises two-thirds of the entire swallowing action. The 33 specialists referred to Judge Greer who he decided to ignore, note that the involuntary reflex is sometimes sufficient to train the full swallow reflex, or enough to provide oral feeding and hydration without aspiration.

Many involuntary relexes can be trained up to voluntary control and vice-versa. Little known tests in behavioral psychology have demonstrated this. During the Vietnam war, in order to counter the draft, many unwilling draftees learned to control their pupil dilation, normally an involuntary reflex, in order to shut down their pupils during the eye test to wash out. It can be done. Can Terri Schiavo's involuntary reflex be trained to be triggered with modern therapies? I don't know—but evidently Judge Greer does—without ever allowing the facts to be presented.

The motion that Greer ruled against asked for a contemporaneous swallowing test to ascertain if such treatment is viable. The final medical fact that Greer trumps all comers with, is the 1997 finding by a speech pathologist who said Terri could not be rehabilitated in this regard and that there was a high risk of aspiration. All the medical specialists with more expertise have been ignored since.

Even the conclusion that Terri's brain has been irreparably damaged and that spinal fluid has replaced her frontal lobes was diagnosed with an early CT scan—and there is an alternate opinion that an MRI or PET scan is the bottommost technology that can ascertain that. There is also a body of parochial evidence of comatose patients with brain dysfunction regaining function. There is always the occasional miracle.

Terri was not terminal. She was not dying. The caveat used by Judge Greer was that she was not "competent," yet competency is not the end-all and be-all to ending life. If a comatose patient is taken off a ventilator and continues to breathe on her own, does a doctor give her a lethal injection? No—the removal of a feeding tube usually goes along with pulling the plug, and the cessation of nutrients usually causes death in a matter of days. But this is with brain-dead patients with a flat EEG. Is it the same logic if a patient does have brain function, does not need a ventilator, and may be able to swallow food and water enough to live without a tube? It is easier with a feeding tube, but there is no sure guarantee that Terri Schiavo will aspirate and get Pneumonia. It is unly a surmise of Greer that makes this happen.

Another court has ruled that it does not have to obey a Congressional order with "Shall" in the content. Somehow, a non-elected arbiter can trump that portion of government that creates the Law that the court is compelled to observe. The disabled persons' fear of court-ordered Euthanasia aside, the stance by a court to ignore the lawmakers is itself dangerous.

If Terri Schiavo dies tonight or tomorrow, will anyone answer the questions that Judge Greer has not answered? When Terri was found on the floor by her brother, Michael was sitting on the couch and had not called 911. There is speculation that her injuries were not caused by a simple fall caused by a cardiac arrest brought on by a potassium imbalance. Judge Greer incorrectly wrote in his report of Feb 11 that Michael called 911. If he doesn't even know the correct chain of events how is he trustworthy on all else?

Judge Greer made a big point that the problem between Michael and the Schindlers was after he won the settlement of $300,000 for loss of consortium and $700,000 for damages. Judge Greer made it seem like the two side split because of greed over the money—yet the family wanted Michael to use the Funds for Terri—but he put it in a trust and authorized no further therapy. I don't know what promises were made—and Judge Greer made the point he didn't want to know.

He doesn't want to know too much.

[ March 30, 2005, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: WmLambert ]

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Everard
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"Even the conclusion that Terri's brain has been irreparably damaged and that spinal fluid has replaced her frontal lobes was diagnosed with an early CT scan—and there is an alternate opinion that an MRI or PET scan is the bottommost technology that can ascertain that."

A CT scan is more then adequate to determine whether someone has brain material. Terri Schiavo does not. A miracle, direct intervention from god, is literally what it would take to repair the damage that a CT scan is more then capable of showing, and did show.

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Everard
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" Judge Greer has very clearly stated that his judgements were not based on pure fact but on which expert he accepted as credible."

Yup. He's SUPPOSED to do that. Its his job. Its the job of a jury in any case where there are experts. If a judge finds an expert witness to be "not credible," then he discounts that expert's testimony to the degree necessary because of not being a credible witness.

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DonaldD
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Ahh, it's so refreshing to have the Lambert brothers back in town [Smile]

William, so much of what you claim seems to come directly from the "Schiavo is a murderer" conspiracy sites. You really should provide some links for the fairy tales you are promoting as facts.

For instance, you claim as fact that Michael Schiavo did not actually call 911, and that Judge Greer should be ridiculed for getting such a basic fact wrong.

Unfortunately, both the Schindlers and Schiavo agree that Michael did in fact call 911, although both sides colour the actions differently. From worldnetdaily.com (not exactly Michael Schiavo supporters)
quote:
According to Schiavo, he heard a "thud" in the hall at 4:30 a.m. and got out of bed to find his wife lying face down on the floor. Schiavo said he rolled her over and saw she was "lifeless" and called 911

According to Schindler's account, Schiavo called Bob Schindler Sr. first, who then alerted Bobby because he lived in the same apartment complex as his sister. Then, prompted to do so by Bob Schindler, Schiavo called 911.

Really, where are you getting this stuff?

And by the way, here's a picture of Terri's brain - it's missing way more than just the frontal lobes.

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D Pace
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I have progressed to just feeling sad about the whole case. I know that everyone is developing furiously hard opinions one way or another, and what I clearly see, because of privacy laws or politics and because we're not all doctors who get to examine her, or whatever, is that We will never be able to KNOW the truth, whether what's right is happening, or people are making stuff up, or what. I desperately like the comfort of being able to trust in our system, our court and medical system, to be our eyes and ears to find these things out, because that's what we've set up to help us in exactly these sorts of situations, and the court really has followed everything to the letter. But just, if the court is wrong, it's Really Really Wrong, and we don't know for certain.

But, here's a comforting document I found. There have been several court- and state- appointed guardians ad litem in this case, people appointed to look out specifically for Terri, and in 2003 the court (not Judge Greer's court) appointed a guy to report to the court and Jeb Bush on behalf of Terry Schiavo: to review the entire case, review all the medical records and court records and meet with Terri for an entire month, and try and be a neutral clean aid to finding out what's going on. Both Michael Schiavo and the Schindler family agreed to fully cooperate with him, meet with him, and give him full access to Terri and all the records for a full month. This is a link to a full report he prepared, which seems to be about as neutral, complete, and unbiased of a description of everything that's gone on, and what Terri's condition and possibilities are, as I've been able to find. He seems very professional and caring, and as if he doesn't have an axe to grind on either side, but just wants to find what's fair and right, and it was nice, very nice, to read a report from somebody with that mindset.

http://jb-williams.com/ts-report-12-03.htm

[ March 30, 2005, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: D Pace ]

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WmLambert
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The police did not follow up on the report filed by the paramedics who responded to the 911 call. The paramedics were suspicious enough about domestic violence being the cause of Terri's physical condition to file a domestic violence report, especially since Terri's purported heart attack did not show up on the EKG. I have the court reports, and there is no evidence that anything was ever done to prove that Terri's condition was not accidental. After the statute of limitations had passed, the police were forced to re-examine the original evidence and said there would have been enough to initiate an investigation, but now they could do nothing.

Yes, everything is legal, but the questions will not easily go away—and the haughty superior attitude of know-it-alls calling anyone who asks questions about the original evidence is a conspiracist is actually defining themselves. I have no doubt that Terri's brain was damaged. I also know that there are conflicting theories on just how severely she was injured, and if therapy would help or not. We know there was brain-damage because she was paralyzed. But at the same time—we do not know just how much of her was still there. Is there a specialist willing to say that the CT scan proves lack of personhood—as Felos defined it?

The overly litigious miss a major aspect underlying this entire episode. Judge Greer made specific rulings based on expert testimony that was subjective in nature. Conflicting opinions were rarely allowed into evidence, and when it was, Greer often selected the conjecture of non-specialists over specialists. The facts he depended on were never given as sure—just as probable, but rewritten into the court report as fact. The exact wording from the court order to remove the feeding tube said: "Dr. Barnhill testified that in his opinion attempting oral nutrition would result in aspiration with insufficient nutrition passing to the stomach to maintain her, thereby prolonging her death, if the feeding tube were withdrawn. He testified that such aspiration would lead to infection, fever, cough, and ultimately pneumonia. This would require suctioning which likely would be fatal." On redirect examination, he testified that it was impossible for Terri Schiavo to be able to take in sufficient sustenance orally to stay alive.

Judge Greer said: "The physicians for the Respondents testified that it appeared to them that Terri Schiavo was able to handle the normal secretions such as saliva and sinus drainage with no drooling. Dr. Carpenter had observed her in a sitting position while Dr. Young did not mention whether she was sitting or in bed. One of the physicians would not say when she would have stabilized after the 1990 cardiac arrest and would not concede that her treating physician would be in a better position than he to make that diagnosis. The credibility of this witness was therefore compromised." Come again? Why were the specialists not believed? Because they disagreed with the non-specialist?

The medical testimony was that Terri was not terminally ill. The medical consensus is that she did have involuntary swallowing reflex, just without the 1/3 voluntary portion of the swallowing reflex which the specialists said could be trained into the 2/3 which is already there, creating a total swallowing reflex. Greer said that although no efforts had been allowed since 1997 to enhance her swallowinig reflex, that the speech pathologists' 1997 opinion would trump the 33 contemporaneous specialists who agreed there was a posiibility of improvement.

This issue is not about who was right and who was wrong—it is about accepting subjecture and promoting it as certainty. What would have happened had Terri Schiavo been allowed the therapy to enhance her swallowing with the feeding tube still connected and assisting her intake of food? Could she have been safely weaned off it? The specialists wanted to try.

The motor areas of her brain were damaged. How much? There were still portions still there. How much of her personality was missing and just how much is necessary for the Felos test of "personhood?" Look at the image of the CT-scan that was posted as Terri's brain. The Limbic brain stem portion of the brain is the bottom, the lower portion nearest the vertebraes. This is the section that performs involuntary brain function which was said to still be present. The outside sections of the brain is not the limbic. There is still much there that is not damaged. How much transference occured to save brain content from damaged areas onto still healthy areas?

I will not make that call. I also noted no doctors made that call either. One doctor spent 10 hours with Terri, studied all of her records, and interviewed all the other doctors, support technicians, and nurse who worked with her and saw possibilities. The Doctor the judge chose to believe spent 45 minutes with her administering a "ritualized" test in which his own commentary sure sounded like he believed Terri was responding to him.

One sad aspect is that Terri's family believed she communicated with them on a continual basis, but noticed that when Michael entered the room, she "Shut down" and froze up like a terrified child, refusing to respond to any stimulus in his presence. If this is true it is understandable that Micheal would believe she was non-responsive. How sad it would be if this whole thing occurred because Terri was angry at Michael.

As for who called 911, There is very little "official" information. There is a distinct "Michael Schiavo version" and a different "Schindler Family" version. For those who haven't heard the conjecture that has inspired second thoughts about what happened that night, Father Rob Johansen assembled most of both sides here:
quote:
Michael Schiavo went into some detail on Larry King describing the circumstances of the injury which caused Terri to be in her present state. Michael claimed that he woke up in the middle of the night, then heard a loud thud. He went out into the hall, he said, and saw Terri lying in the hallway. She was, he said, unconscious. Michael then stated that he called Terri's brother Bobby, who lived in the same apartment complex as Terri and Michael. He then said that Bobby told him to call 911 and that he would come over. Michael claimed that he was holding Terri in his arms when Bobby arrived. The paramedics arrived a short time later and began to try to revive her. I asked the Schindlers how his account meshed with what they knew happened at the time.

Bob Schindler replied "that isn't what happened at all. What happened was that Michael called us first, and I answered the phone. He told me that Terri had collapsed and was unconscious. I told him to call 911. Then I called Bobby and told him to get over there. I said 'something's going on over there, get over there right now.'" Bob also said that Michael's claim that he was holding Terri in his arms was untrue. "When Bobby arrived at their place," Bob explained, "he found Terri lying face down in the hallway, with her feet over the threshold of the doorway, as though she had been coming out of the bedroom. Her hands were clutched around her throat, and her breathing was gurgling. Michael was sitting on the couch in the living room; he was a total basket case."

Michael also said on "Larry King Live" that Terri was bulimic prior to that night, and that her bulimia was possibly the cause of the potassium imbalance which was discovered when she was in the hospital. Bob & Mary also find this assertion incredible. Bob's reaction was "Poppycock!" Terri, they said, was quite healthy and had a healthy appetite prior to her injury. None of her friends or family ever saw any signs of any eating disorder, and there was no medical evidence of it found in her examinations.

This "potassium imbalance" is frequently touted as the explanation of what caused Terri's collapse. But it is an explanation that explains nothing. Indeed, doctors for the Schindlers testified in court, and reiterated at their news conference last Friday (October 24, 2003) that the potassium imbalance was only detected after she was brought to the hospital. This is after the paramedics had been working on her to revive her. Part of such treatment is the injection of various drugs and electrolytes to try to stimulate the heart. These injections were very likely the cause of the potassium imbalance. The potassium imbalance was an effect of her collapse and subsequent treatment, and not the cause of anything.

Terri's heart stopped for several minutes that night, and that stoppage caused the brain damage that led to her current condition. It is frequently asserted in press accounts that Terri had a "heart attack." This too is false. There was no heart attack, and again, doctors have testified to that effect. A heart attack causes the release of certain enzymes into the bloodstream. These enzymes are readily discovered in tests and are used as the "markers" of a heart attack. No such enzymes were found in Terri's bloodstream, nor any other evidence of a heart attack. Terri's heart was and is quite healthy: there was no heart attack.

So what happened to cause Terri to lose consciousness? No one is sure, because there was never a proper investigation. The Schindlers do not accept Michael's version of what happened to Terri. Also, Bob related, "it's in the medical record that when Terri was brought into the hospital she had bruises around her neck." Doctors for the Schindlers have testified that those bruises were consistent with manual strangulation. Furthermore, skull x-rays and head CT scans done about a year after her injury indicated fractures to the occipital region which have never been explained. These fractures are consistent with trauma to the head.

The theory that Terri was strangled gains plausibility when one considers that friends and siblings of Terri's testified that they were aware that Michael had abused Terri prior to the night of her injury. Bob & Mary were not aware of this themselves before Terri's injury. "I found out afterwards," Bob said, "that they [Terri's friends and brother] had been keeping that from me." But, Bob, explained, Terri's best friend, Jackie Rhoades, testified at the 1996 guardianship hearing that she knew Terri was being abused, that she frequently saw her with bruises on her arms and legs, and that Terri was afraid of Michael. Jackie further stated that Terri intended to divorce Michael, and that she and Terri were making plans to do that. Terri's brother Bobby also testified to his knowledge of Terri's abuse, and corroborated much of Jackie's testimony.

Anyone who says there are not gray areas in this case that bear scrutiny, then they are just too sure of themselves.
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KnightEnder
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I thought she had an eating disorder that brought on a chemical imbalance and caused her heart-attack?
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WmLambert
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There is no evidence of any eating disorder. In fact the only court testimony I've seen was to disprove that claim.
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KnightEnder
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quote:
Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance that was believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors ruled she was in a persistent vegetative state, with no real consciousness or chance of recovery. From "Case Divided Family and Spurred National Debate" By MIKE SCHNEIDER, AP

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OhPuhLeez
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D Pace - thank you for providing that document. Enlightening!
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KnightEnder
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Yes, thank you D Pace. From the document.

quote:
Until recently, while both Michael Schiavo and the Schindlers agreed that Theresa was in a persistent vegetative state, they could not agree as to the matter of discontinuation of life support. Recently, the Schindlers have adopted what appears to be a position that Theresa is not in a persistent vegetative state, and/or that they do not support the fact that such a medical state exists at all. Yet throughout the nearly ten years of litigation, it is the issue of her ability to swallow, ingest food and hydration, and the findings regarding any residual cognitive ability that have marked the medical substance of this dispute.

quote:
Of Michael Schiavo, there is the incorrect perception that he has refused to relinquish his guardianship because of financial interests, and more recently, because of allegations that he actually abused Theresa and seeks to hide this. There is no evidence in the record to substantiate any of these perceptions or allegations.


[ March 31, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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OhPuhLeez
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KE - these things always seemed CLEAR to me. I always believed he wouldn't relinquish guardianship because without his guardianship, her wishes wouldn't be honored, same reason he wouldn't divorce her despite having moved on with his life.
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DonaldD
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I'm going to save myself some effort and simply cut and paste from my earlier post: "William, so much of what you claim seems to come directly from the "Schiavo is a murderer" conspiracy sites. You really should provide some links for the fairy tales you are promoting as facts."

You've libelled the judge for believing that Michael S called 911. Where is your proof that he did not? Link please.

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