Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Protecting Racisim as a Freedom? (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Protecting Racisim as a Freedom?
Dagonee
Member
Member # 2212

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If there was no stall, then it makes sense. But in that case, people wouldn't be coming in anyway.

If there was a stall, I don't quite see why you needed to block others from using the bathroom.

And if I had a kid with me who needed to go, you would have moved. One way or the other.

Posts: 2061 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
How impatient or irrational would one need to be in order to initate physical violence over a request to wait just a minute or two?
It's not the two minute wait, but the principle of it. You hijacked a men's washroom for your personal use, and actually have the gall to think you were in the right. If I was the manager of said establishment, I would have kindly asked you to step aside and let people use the washroom, or leave. As for physical violence, you're the one who got physical by stepping in front of the door and physically blocking people. If someone walks in front of me on a public sidewalk and physically tries to block me from getting where I'm going, I am within my rights to shove them the hell out my way.

What exactly were you so worried about anyway? That your daughter might catch a glimpse at some guy at a urinal? Of pedophiles molesting her in plain sight of you? Sounds like you're the irrational one.

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
javelin
Member
Member # 1284

 - posted      Profile for javelin   Email javelin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
One thing I miss is that Utah has tables for changing babies in the men's bathrooms as well as in the women's. Yes folks; daddies exist as well as mommies. And it's not very safe to stand a screaming 2-year old on a sink to change his diaper.

Funny, I believe in Washington, Oregon, and even California - the changing tables are ONLY in the men's bathroom.
Posts: 8614 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Funny, I believe in Washington, Oregon, and even California - the changing tables are ONLY in the men's bathroom.
Wo... weird.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Landlord-Tenant is a totally different situation than normal tresspass issues, since a tennant actually has PROPERTY RIGHTS, Jason. Although tenant rights have been increasing, especially in more poor-friendly (what used to be called liberal) jurisdictions, some tenant property rights extend back to the common law of the middle ages. This is not a new thing under the sun.

A better example of tresspass would be when you start smoking in a movie theater where smoking is prohibited, or (as happened in Detroit where I lived) when a group of protesters walk into an open LDS chapel chanting political slogans, while one of them takes her clothes off. The fact that the door is open and the sign on the outside says "visitors welcome" does not mean that visitors who refuse to leave when asked, are not "trespassing."

Still, I think that "hijacking" is an awfully strong word to describe blocking a men's room so a little girl can pee. If you're not acting in capacity as an employee or agent of the store, then I don't think you have the right to physically enforce what you think are store policies. Assault and battery laws may even apply where a customer, unauthorized by the store, uses force or threat of force to remove someone who is blocking the bathroom. On the other hand, if he just squeezed past an unauthorized person blocking the bathroom entrance, then he would probably be legally justified.

[ May 28, 2005, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Still, I think that "hijacking" is an awfully strong word to describe blocking a men's room so a little girl can pee.
I don't. He took over an entire men's room for the personal use of his girl and physically blocked men who wanted to use it. I don't care if the delay was 10 minutes or 10 seconds, you don't have the right to take over a washroom for yourself. Any customer would have been justified in shoving him physically out of the way, and management would have been justified in expelling him from the premises.

I can't even figure out why he did it. Why couldn't he just escort his girl to the stall and stand there while she peed, like normal fathers do?

Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
management would have been justified in expelling him from the premises.
Yes. Battery would probably be legally justified under those circumstances, although it would be legally safer to call the police to do it for him.

quote:
Any customer would have been justified in shoving him physically out of the way
I don't believe a customer would be legally justified in committing battery. He should probably talk to the manager rather than assuming unnecessary liability.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I don't believe a customer would be legally justified in committing battery. He should probably talk to the manager rather than assuming unnecessary liability.
I'm not talking legally. I'm talking as a matter of common sense. It's no different than if someone tried to block your way on a public sidewalk. As a matter of common sense, if they try to block you, you ask them politely to move, and then if they refuse, you shove them out of the way. It's no different.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah. Well, common sense appropriateness has never been my domain, so I defer to your expertise.
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ender wiggin
Member
Member # 9

 - posted      Profile for ender wiggin   Email ender wiggin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Interesting to see how this thread has gone. I noticed that Lady Starkiller hasn't responded...maybe she has a life on the weekend.

Do we all agree that there has to be a balance between the rights of the individual and the righst of a private organsation? I think that in these sorts of cases there isn't a black and white distiction. Obviously there are some situations where a private club or the like should be allowed to restrict membership to thier constituency. On the other hand we need to make sure that no group (blacks, women, heck even white males!) faces systemic discrimination due to these rules.

Posts: 971 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jefferson101
Member
Member # 2396

 - posted      Profile for jefferson101   Email jefferson101   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
I don't believe a customer would be legally justified in committing battery. He should probably talk to the manager rather than assuming unnecessary liability.
I'm not talking legally. I'm talking as a matter of common sense. It's no different than if someone tried to block your way on a public sidewalk. As a matter of common sense, if they try to block you, you ask them politely to move, and then if they refuse, you shove them out of the way. It's no different.
If you walked through the door and everything was full, are you going to toss someone out of the way, prosecute someone, or hold your horses for two minutes until it's your turn in line?

[Big Grin]

It's not like I took the place over for a quarter of an hour, even.

The kid was just too young to send into the womens' facility by herself. I'd have spent a half hour getting her out while she played with the hot air hand dryer or some such. And I'm conditioned that the women's is somewhere that I don't enter.

But I will take over the men's for five flipping minutes. And did.

I can tell some folks around here have either not raised children or are living in another world from the one I inhabit.

And be it noted. You might try to shove them out of the way. You may succeed. Or you may not. If that's your response to any obstruction you encounter, you are going to be in a lot of trouble sooner or later. I'd counsel someone who reacted to the entire world that way to get some anger management therapy, first off.

But I am not sure you are serious, so let us say that I know people who did react to the entire world that way. Most of them didn't make it into their 30's without being in jail or otherwise removed from the general population.

There's always someone bigger or meaner. Or armed. Far better to talk than attack. Most succesful suriviors in this world have learned that one through observation. And most of the rest have learned it through experience.

[ May 28, 2005, 07:12 PM: Message edited by: jefferson101 ]

Posts: 262 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FiredrakeRAGE
Member
Member # 1224

 - posted      Profile for FiredrakeRAGE   Email FiredrakeRAGE   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An armed society is a polite society. If there is a legitimate reason to (for example) block the bathroom, let it be. If there is not, weight the options in front of you and act.

I have to say that if Jefferson101 was blocking the restroom and refused to tell me why, I would probably shove him out of the way. If he told me his daughter was in there and would be but a moment, I would probably be willing to wait.

I would ask the same respect of Jefferson101. If I was about to vomit and his daughter was in there, I would expect that he would be willing to allow me entrance (but would probably follow me in to ensure the safety of his daughter).

Civility is the name of the game [Smile]

--Firedrake

Posts: 3538 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
If you walked through the door and everything was full, are you going to toss someone out of the way, prosecute someone, or hold your horses for two minutes until it's your turn in line?
Are you serious? You can't tell the difference between pushing someone out of an occupied stall and blocking an entire bathroom so that your one child can have it to herself?

quote:
The kid was just too young to send into the womens' facility by herself. I'd have spent a half hour getting her out while she played with the hot air hand dryer or some such. And I'm conditioned that the women's is somewhere that I don't enter.
The normal thing to do would be to take her into the men's washroom yourself and tell her to use a stall while you wait outside, not to send her in, and barricade the door acting like some kind of bouncer.

quote:
But I will take over the men's for five flipping minutes. And did.

I can tell some folks around here have either not raised children or are living in another world from the one I inhabit.

Evidently not. In the world I live in, fathers take their young daughters into the men's room and let them use the stall while they stand by. Did this option never occur to you even once?

quote:
And be it noted. You might try to shove them out of the way. You may succeed. Or you may not. If that's your response to any obstruction you encounter, you are going to be in a lot of trouble sooner or later. I'd counsel someone who reacted to the entire world that way to get some anger management therapy, first off.
The same could be said of someone who likes to barricade washrooms, telling grown men that they can't enter, because HE decided that his daughter needed the whole washroom to herself.

quote:
There's always someone bigger or meaner. Or armed. Far better to talk than attack. Most succesful suriviors in this world have learned that one through observation. And most of the rest have learned it through experience.
Indeed. I would talk. I would talk to the manager and have you ejected from the washroom. It's amazing how you blame the person who gets angry at you, rather than yourself, for doing something obnoxious. What you did wasn't ornery, it was idiotic.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I would ask the same respect of Jefferson101. If I was about to vomit and his daughter was in there, I would expect that he would be willing to allow me entrance (but would probably follow me in to ensure the safety of his daughter).
Willing to allow? For God's sake, the bathroom doesn't belong to him, and he has no authority to keep anyone out. He still hasn't explained why he even needed to do this in the first place. If he's tough enough to block the door and physically prevent men from entering, then he's tough enough to bring her in himself and protect her from any dangers she might encounter in there. I feel like I'm going crazy. Am I the only one who thinks this was the stupidest, most obnoxious thing in the world to do?
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike_W
Member
Member # 202

 - posted      Profile for Mike_W   Email Mike_W   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Am I the only one who thinks this was the stupidest, most obnoxious thing in the world to do? "

You might be. I don't see the severity at the same level as you. It wasnt a very civil act though. Goes in the same category as hogging the left lane or making an ass of yourself in line at the airport (topics we have recently discussed). Inconsiderate might be a better word.

Posts: 1352 | Registered: Dec 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
FiredrakeRAGE
Member
Member # 1224

 - posted      Profile for FiredrakeRAGE   Email FiredrakeRAGE   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would not even go that far. If Jefferson101 hogged the restroom for himself, I would be irate. I have a higher tolerance when children are involved.

--Firedrake

Posts: 3538 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jefferson101
Member
Member # 2396

 - posted      Profile for jefferson101   Email jefferson101   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First off, by the time anyone could have gotten the manager there, I'd have been gone.

Second, this wasn't in Grand Central Station or the DFW Airport or some such. One stall, one urinal. I don't live in Huge City USA, as I've noted previously.

Third, as remarked originally, I did tell them why, when I stopped them.

Happily, in the world I'm inhabiting, neither of them seemed to be particularly upset by the situation. In point of fact, the first one was apparently a Daddy too, because his only question was to ask me how I wound up with kiddie duty alone.

I have suspicions that if the second guy had insisted, he'd have helped me out. As would I assist if I encountered someone in the same position.

If someone had come up with a baby or a little guy who needed in, I would not have held them up. I'm a Daddy too, and I know how it works. But full grown adult males that can't wait for two minutes because they have "rights"?

Grow up, kids. You'll prosper much more.

If someone stops me on the way into a restroom, and says "don't go in there right now", I'm going to say "Why?"

And by the time the conversation is done, it's not a problem any more and I can go in.

It sure beats fisticuffs, or worse. And it hurts a whole lot less, even if I win the fight.

But I had to grow up before I realized that one, too, I guess.

Posts: 262 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For me, if a guy asked politely if I would wait, I would offer to watch the door so he could help his kid.

If somebody belligerently blocked my way? We'd have words at the very least.

Why initiate a confrontation?

I wonder if this could be an argument against a same-sex couple having an alternate sex child - they'd wind up pulling this crap all the time...

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I still haven't heard an explanation as to why he couldn't just have walked into the bathroom with his daughter and waited outside the stall while she peed. I have seen father's do this all the time. I have never seen a father block a bathroom forbidding people from coming in.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know. My mom did pretty well with me and my brother in terms of bathrooms.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Everard
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jason-
I don't agree as to the severity, but I agree that blocking the restroom isn't very nice, at the very least.

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
javelin
Member
Member # 1284

 - posted      Profile for javelin   Email javelin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Perhaps Jefferson can hear the advice - next time, the better move would probably do what most do - go in with the daughter, have her go in the stall, and stand "guard" outside that stall.

[ May 28, 2005, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

Posts: 8614 | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jefferson101
Member
Member # 2396

 - posted      Profile for jefferson101   Email jefferson101   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
I still haven't heard an explanation as to why he couldn't just have walked into the bathroom with his daughter and waited outside the stall while she peed. I have seen father's do this all the time. I have never seen a father block a bathroom forbidding people from coming in.

Because it was one toilet, one urinal, and no walls or suchlike. Wide open space.

I done told you four times at least, this wasn't the DFW airport or some such.

I realize now that I may have used the term "stall" to mean sitting toilet, or perhaps "stool". That may be the whole hang up here. But if there had been some kind of divider, your suggestion is probably what I'd have used.

And there was no lock on the blessed door, or I'd have just used that, also.

But, in that spot, back in '82, there wasn't and there wasn't, and so I did it my way.

And if I have a granddaughter and wind up in the same situation, I'll do it again.

Posts: 262 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Dagonee
Member
Member # 2212

 - posted      Profile for Dagonee     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If there's no divider, then it's a one-person bathroom anyway, and they usually have locks.
Posts: 2061 | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Because it was one toilet, one urinal, and no walls or suchlike. Wide open space.
DUHHH... Geez. OBVIOUSLY you couldn't let anyone inside. Not even a grown man is going to use a toilet with someone else watching, and no one in their right mind would think of trying to use an occupied one stall bathroom. (it is strange that there was no lock) The way you bragged about it, it's like you were stopping guys from coming into a regular washroom!
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
jefferson101
Member
Member # 2396

 - posted      Profile for jefferson101   Email jefferson101   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
Because it was one toilet, one urinal, and no walls or suchlike. Wide open space.
DUHHH... Geez. OBVIOUSLY you couldn't let anyone inside. Not even a grown man is going to use a toilet with someone else watching, and no one in their right mind would think of trying to use an occupied one stall bathroom. (it is strange that there was no lock) The way you bragged about it, it's like you were stopping guys from coming into a regular washroom!
'Round these parts, it was. And mostly still is.

Kind of like the old "two holer". No partition, but two spaces.

And if there's one for each gender, and two spaces, they often don't put locks on them. I don't know how you folks in the "big cities" have that sort of thing set up, but I'm just a country boy. We do have doors, but in those instances, they are swinging doors. "Push here to open door."

And there was substantial traffic there, right then, for whatever reason.

That's as "regular" a "washroom" as we have around here, except for Walmart and the Superstop. So what's up with you?

[ May 28, 2005, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: jefferson101 ]

Posts: 262 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Gaoics79
Member
Member # 969

 - posted      Profile for Gaoics79   Email Gaoics79   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
That's as "regular" a "washroom as we have around here. So what's up with you?
I don't know. Do people like to go on the toilet in front of other people where you're from? As far as I'm concerned, a room with a toilet and urinal without a divider is a private washroom, and no one is going to expect to be able to use it while someone else is in there. There was no need for you to block people from coming in. All you needed to say was "someone's in there" and they would understand and wait in line. And I can't understand why you didn't mention this fact. It changes the whole story.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
ender wiggin
Member
Member # 9

 - posted      Profile for ender wiggin   Email ender wiggin   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So what if a black man wanted to use the toliet and somebody didn't want him to?

(i give up, this thread is gone. I tried.)

Posts: 971 | Registered: Oct 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
yossarian22c
Member
Member # 1779

 - posted      Profile for yossarian22c   Email yossarian22c       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Establishing noisiness as a nuisance is a fairly simple matter. Yoss needs to get his complaints on record, with both the landlord and possibly the police, but most importantly with the landlord. In many places, he can also require the landlord to provide carpet or other cushioning for the floor above him.
I'm not trying to get them evicted, I generally feel they probably work hard and they always quiet down when I ask them. Evicting them for noise violations, it just seems a bit extreme to me. Raleigh ordinences would allow evicting over noise violations though. Eviction I think would probably take 1-2 months (as that is how long it took for the drugies to get evicted). But no I have no desire to get them evicted, that's why I've asked them to turn there music down 50+ times instead of calling the police.
Posts: 1121 | Registered: May 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Pete at Home
Member
Member # 429

 - posted      Profile for Pete at Home   Email Pete at Home   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ender wiggin:
So what if a black man wanted to use the toliet and somebody didn't want him to?

You did not provide sufficient facts to answer the question. Somebody didn't want him to use the toilet because he was black, because he was a man, or because the person who didn't want him to was already sitting on the toilet?
Posts: 44193 | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Lady Starkiller
Member
Member # 2444

 - posted      Profile for Lady Starkiller   Email Lady Starkiller   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I noticed that Lady Starkiller hasn't responded...maybe she has a life on the weekend.
Not usually -- but I did this weekend! [Big Grin]

I have to admit, I find the whole toilet discussion hilarious...

quote:
Do we all agree that there has to be a balance between the rights of the individual and the righst of a private organsation?
To an extent, yes, but, like I said in the other thread, a private organization is private for a reason. I agree with everyone who said that it is unfair to ban people from public places, but that's not the issue at hand.

quote:
I think that in these sorts of cases there isn't a black and white distiction. Obviously there are some situations where a private club or the like should be allowed to restrict membership to thier constituency. On the other hand we need to make sure that no group (blacks, women, heck even white males!) faces systemic discrimination due to these rules.
"Systemic discrimination", to me, would only really occur if it started showing up in the public domain as well. If every single city in America had a private club exclusively for white men, I wouldn't call that systemic discrimination.

As I'm writing this, I'm remembering the incident from some time ago (I'm horrible with estimating time...) when a female golfer tried to, essentially, force her way into an all-male golf club. I don't recall how the incident turned out, but I remember being disgusted that anyone would feel such an overwhelming sense of entitlement that she would ignore established rules in her own self-centeredness.

To me, that's a major part of the issue: to what extent do those who try to deliberately break or sidestep the rules of private institutions really have a legitimate grievance? To what extent is it their own selfishness, greed, and sense of entitlement getting in the way of others' rights?

Posts: 434 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1