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Author Topic: Emails Will Reveal that Rove Outed CIA Operative Valerie Plame
A. Alzabo
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quote:
You love to point out conservative bias, but still insist that the MSM (as I defined it) is only objective and sensationalistic with no intent to present a biased view towards liberal ideology. THAT is where we disagree, I think.
No, I love to point out how bad "mainstream" journalism has become. I think it is incorrect to view it through "liberal" or "conservative" blinders. Is Judith Miller "liberal". What about her WMD cheerleading that helped the administration so much? Is Elisabeth Bumiller "liberal"? What about Margaret Carlson? Tim Russert?

I posit that much bad journalism will help "liberals", and much will help "conservatives". Thus, it's not helpful to view it through political ideology.


quote:
Au Contraire Alzabo, I know where there are plenty of right wing/conservative bad journalism. I readily point out that Newsmax, WND, FoxNews are generally biased towards the GOP/conservativism. But we all know that. The argument I make is that on the other side of the coin, the MSM (ABC/CBS/NBC/CNN/NYT/LAT/CHISUN/AP/Reuters) are primarily liberally/Democrat biased.

See, this is where we really disagree. I don't see the "MSM" as "the other side of the coin". There's a lot of crappy reporting that helps "conservatives" coming out of the "MSM".
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Daruma28
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lol.

See Ev, you've already been convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rove is guilty. Neat way to completely sidestep the issue of the media pushing the meme basically admitting there was no crime committed.

You can't "out" an agent that was not "in" which means there was no "leak."

It's really that simple.

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Everard
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Nice try daruma. Its really NOT that simple.

If you think its that simple, you haven't looked hard enough yet.

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by A. Alzabo:
[QUOTE] No, I love to point out how bad "mainstream" journalism has become. I think it is incorrect to view it through "liberal" or "conservative" blinders.

I agree on the semantics of your point here - I say that mcuh of the bad mainstram journalism is BECAUSE the journalists and editors themselves compromise journalistic objectivity to suit their own biases. Of course there are exceptions in journalism like those you name (Russert et al) that are not in the same class. I only point out that much of the liberal agenda is published promoted and syndicated throughout the MSM without editorial corrections. Like the phrasing "Rove outted." That is not proven, but it's reported like it has...and that is ubiquitous bias I refer to in the MSM.


Hence Dan Rather barely taking the time to check out whether or not forged documents were in fact authentic before rushing to air the story.

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Like the phrasing "Rove outted." That is not proven, but it's reported like it has...and that is ubiquitous bias I refer to in the MSM.
Welcome tho the world of "scripts". "Death Tax", anyone?

quote:
Hence Dan Rather barely taking the time to check out whether or not forged documents were in fact authentic before rushing to air the story.
Yeah, 'cause that worked so incredibly well for "liberals". It must have been a liberal plot to discredit Bush. Oh, wait, it was just more poorly sourced, lazy-ass "journalism".
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Nice try daruma. Its really NOT that simple.

If you think its that simple, you haven't looked hard enough yet.

Keep looking harder Ev. Because from everything I've read up to now, when this investigation is concluded, Rove will be vindicated, and the new party line will be something like the investigation was corrupt, that Rove really is guilty no matter what the evidence says, and anybody that disagrees with that consensus will simply be Right wing apologists and GOP operatives.

I really don't give a crap about Rove at all. He could be fired or indicted tomorrow and I wouldn't lose a blink of sleep over it.

What I despise is the willful duplitousness of the MSM media entities as amply demonstrated by their very own class action briefing vs. the theme of their reportage. To very contradictory viewpoints, caused by their desire to promote a partisan agenda.

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
What I despise is the willful duplitousness of the MSM media entities as amply demonstrated by their very own class action briefing vs. the theme of their reportage. To very contradictory viewpoints, caused by their desire to promote a partisan agenda.
I'd say "...caused by their desire to preserve their privilege."
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Everard
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"Keep looking harder Ev. Because from everything I've read up to now, when this investigation is concluded, Rove will be vindicated,"

He won't be convicted. And if by "not convicted" you mean vindicated, then we have completely different frames of reference.

The simple fact of the matter is that rove had security clearance. He had access to security information. That means he may not confirm or deny, through word or action, information regarding classified information.

His lawyer admitted he did not do that. Thus, he was involved in a "leak" in that information got out through him, that should not have gotten out through him.

He won't be convicted, because the laws don't cover this situation. But he's committed an action that george bush said would get anyone doing it fired.

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by A. Alzabo:
quote:
Like the phrasing "Rove outted." That is not proven, but it's reported like it has...and that is ubiquitous bias I refer to in the MSM.
Welcome tho the world of "scripts". "Death Tax", anyone?

quote:
Hence Dan Rather barely taking the time to check out whether or not forged documents were in fact authentic before rushing to air the story.
Yeah, 'cause that worked so incredibly well for "liberals". It must have been a liberal plot to discredit Bush. Oh, wait, it was just more poorly sourced, lazy-ass "journalism".

Lazy-asses BECAUSE the story fit hand in glove with Rather and his CBS staff's preconcieved idea and their own liberal bias. They treated the SBVFT with far more critical skepticism than the forged memos.

That's what I mean by "liberal" bias.

If a story doesn't fit the template, you'll see a lot more critical journalistic research. If it fits the template, well, we don't need to look TOO hard at it, since we already know it MUST be true.

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Everard
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Which is obviously why the main stream media is flooded with conservative scripts?
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Lazy-asses BECAUSE the story fit hand in glove with Rather and his CBS staff's preconcieved idea and their own liberal bias. They treated the SBVFT with far more critical skepticism than the forged memos.


Except that the Swifties were given free reign by the "MSM" for months. But you can't see it due to your blinders.

quote:
That's what I mean by "liberal" bias.

How convienient.

quote:
If a story doesn't fit the template, you'll see a lot more critical journalistic research. If it fits the template, well, we don't need to look TOO hard at it, since we already know it MUST be true.
Ah, yes. But there are as many "conservative" "templates" in the "MSM" as there are "liberal" ones: "Al Gore, Liar", "Straight-shooter Bush", "WMD in Iraq", etc.
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Daruma28
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Like the incessant, ad naseum coverage of this whole Rove non-story and the three straight days of a hostile, aggressive and confrontational inquisition of Scott McClellan? Yeah, there's a real conservative script permeating through the AP/Reuters and Major TV Networks....
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Everard
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having long term memory loss, daruma?
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Daruma28
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quote:
Except that the Swifties were given free reign by the "MSM" for months. But you can't see it due to your blinders.
I must have missed the front page banner headlines in the NYT/LAT/CHISUN or the feature stories on 60 minutes and Nightline...must have been my blinders.

How about another case study here Alzabo? Ed Klein and the promotion of his book critical of the Clintons versus Kitty Kelly and the promotion of her book critical of Bush.

Nah. No bias there either.

Three straight days of Kitty Kelly interviews by Katie Couric, while Ed Klein is shut out completely. But that's not because of any bias, right?

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Everard
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Of course, bush is president and clinton is not...

during the clinton administration, there were headlines about whitewater, paula jones, etc almost every day. Yet, there weren't the stories about how the people calling for clinton's head because of sexual misbehavior had mistresses.

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Wayward Son
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This just illustrates the high level of ethics the Bush Administration is holding to.

You've only crossed the ethical line if you're "convicted of a crime." [Roll Eyes]

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
I must have missed the front page banner headlines in the NYT/LAT/CHISUN or the feature stories on 60 minutes and Nightline...must have been my blinders.

Must've been. Those guys were everywhere, largely unchallenged. Money well spent.

quote:
How about another case study here Alzabo? Ed Klein and the promotion of his book critical of the Clintons versus Kitty Kelly and the promotion of her book critical of Bush.

Yeah, no one critical of the Clintons ever got any airtime. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Nah. No bias there either.

If you think I'm claiming no biases , then you haven't been paying attention.

quote:
Three straight days of Kitty Kelly interviews by Katie Couric, while Ed Klein is shut out completely. But that's not because of any bias, right?
See above. There are plenty of biases in the media, but I'd be surprised if political ideology was in the top ten at giant news orgs.
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Daruma28
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Round and round we go...getting nowhere in trying to convince each other. lol.

I'll just call for a truce here, as I think we've hijacked this rather interesting thread pretty far enough, eh? [Smile]

We can take up another time in some other thread, as we inevitably do. [Wink]

I'm off to lunch.

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Round and round we go...getting nowhere in trying to convince each other. lol.

I'll just call for a truce here, as I think we've hijacked this rather interesting thread pretty far enough, eh?


Done.

quote:
We can take up another time in some other thread, as we inevitably do.

I'm off to lunch. [

Sure enough, but I'm waiting for breakfast here...
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KnightEnder
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quote:
anybody that disagrees with that consensus will simply be Right wing apologists and GOP operatives.

Who does that sound like? It's on the tip on my brain....?

KE

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WarrsawPact
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I don't know, but wehen I come up with the answer, the only people who will disagree with me are Left wing apologists and DNC operatives.
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Daruma28
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lol

Warsaw, you forgot the [Razz]

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RickyB
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awwww, poor McClellan...

Please. McClellan lied by saying it's ridiculous to think Rove had anything to do with the affair. He deserves to be grilled.

If DeeDee Myers had been subject to the same treatment you'd be cheering about how the press is finally doing its job.

You people simply never concede anything, and it's very sickening.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
You people simply never concede anything, and it's very sickening.
Ain't that the truth.

I find the President's words/actions in the matter despicable, and I find the people defending him and his administration despicable in this matter.

If investigations show that Rove had no part in the leaking of that identity, then by all means he should remain in his current position.
But regardless of crimes committed and ethical wriggling by the Administration, if he was involved in leaking that information, his slimy a*s should get fired just like the President said it would.

However: a President who isn't a lying twit seems to be a little much to ask for, these days.

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KnightEnder
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WP,

Are you actually suggesting that I am a left wing knee jerk apologist as Daruma is for the Right? If so, I can easily prove you wrong.

KE

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Daruma28
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Ok. Please show me the "wriggling." Or Bush ethically "twisting."

Bush's first statement on September 30th, 2003:

"If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of."

Bush's most recent statement yesterday:

"We have a serious ongoing investigation here. And it's being played out in the press. And I think it's best that people wait until the investigation is complete before you jump to conclusions. And I will do so, as well. I don't know all the facts. I want to know all the facts. The best place for the facts to be done is by somebody who's spending time investigating it. I would like this to end as quickly as possible so we know the facts, and if someone committed a crime, they will no longer work in my administration."

If he "lied" I don't see it here.

Now if pointing this SIMPLE truth of comparing the two quotes that is being spun as Bush "moving the goalposts" or "changing his position to favor Rove" makes me a "knee-jerk apologist and right wing shill," than whatever.

quote:
You people simply never concede anything, and it's very sickening.
So let's recap here:

I posted a link to the actual law brief filed by 36 media organizations four months making the case that Miller and Cooper could not be compelled to reveal their sources because no crime has been committed.

Bush basically reiterates the very same point he made two years ago --ALMOST VERBATIM -- and he's now "twisting" and "wriggling" and "ethically challenged?"

Finally, it's established FACT the Ms. Plame was NOT a covert operative 5 years prior to the Novak column, so EVEN IF ROVE SPECIFICALLY gave Ms. Plame's real name, address, email address, home phone and cell phone number, no crime was committed.

So from an objective person not blinded by ABB ideology pointing out these is "sickening" for not "conceding anything?"

Who's refusing to concede anything here?

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WarrsawPact
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KE - No, it was a joke! Come on man! I know better than to call you a shill.

Lunch time is short today...

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FIJC
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quote:
"awwww, poor McClellan...

Please. McClellan lied by saying it's ridiculous to think Rove had anything to do with the affair. He deserves to be grilled.

If DeeDee Myers had been subject to the same treatment you'd be cheering about how the press is finally doing its job.

You people simply never concede anything, and it's very sickening."

I think that McCellen's past comments were really irresponsible. On the other hand, I don't think he's always really in the loop...
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KnightEnder
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Thanks WP, I know I lean heavily to the Left, but I try to be an equal opportunity offendor if and when I spot injustice or hypocrisy on either side.

KE [Smile]

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David Ricardo
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So much for the "I did not know her secret CIA identity was classified" defense:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/20/AR2005072002517.html

quote:
Plame's Identity Marked As Secret

A classified State Department memorandum central to a federal leak investigation contained information about CIA officer Valerie Plame in a paragraph marked "(S)" for secret, a clear indication that any Bush administration official who read it should have been aware the information was classified, according to current and former government officials.

...

The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said.


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OpsanusTau
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Well, though Rove is claiming that he never saw that memo until the Special Prosecutor showed it to him.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Bush's first statement on September 30th, 2003:

"If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And if the person has violated law, the person will be taken care of."

Looks to me like your right, Darma.

Looks like Bush has consistently stated that, in his Administration, ethical means not convicted of a crime. [Razz]

(And it's good to know that he knows who made the leak.)

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Looks like Bush has consistently stated that, in his Administration, ethical means not convicted of a crime.
Bush also stated in the past that he would fire leakers, regardless of whether or not they committed a crime. Let's not be so quick to let him weasel out.
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OpsanusTau
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quote:
Finally, it's established FACT the Ms. Plame was NOT a covert operative 5 years prior to the Novak column, so EVEN IF ROVE SPECIFICALLY gave Ms. Plame's real name, address, email address, home phone and cell phone number, no crime was committed.
Then our government is sure wasting a lot of time and money conducting a criminal investigation about something that was definitively not a crime.

edit:
Moreover, even if you're right (which, somehow, I doubt quite strongly), Bush seems to have thought the leak was serious enough to justify firing the leaker two years ago.

And also: If Mr Rove were an honorable man who was sure he hadn't done anything wrong (or even an honorable man who might unintentionally have done something wrong), I would think that at some time in the last two years, he would have told someone that he might have been the leak.

Um, instead of LYING about it.

[ July 21, 2005, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: OpsanusTau ]

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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Then our government is sure wasting a lot of time and money conducting a criminal investigation about something that was definitively not a crime.
Well, remember the Clinton years...

[ July 21, 2005, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: A. Alzabo ]

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OpsanusTau
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I don't, really, very specifically.
Too young, you know.

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Funean
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(where IS my cane? ....dratted thing....)
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Wayward Son
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quote:
Bush also stated in the past that he would fire leakers, regardless of whether or not they committed a crime. Let's not be so quick to let him weasel out.
Do you think he might have changed his tune when he found out who the leaker actually was?
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Do you think he might have changed his tune when he found out who the leaker actually was?
He seems to have gone back and forth for a little bit earlier, so I don't think he "suddenly" changed his tune now. But I think the "he always said "violated the law"" is pretty flimsy cya. Scott McLellen, for example, kept saying that the White House would fire any "leaker" not any "criminal leaker".
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Wayward Son
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Yeah, but Scott McClellan doesn't speak for the President, does he? I mean, not when it counts. [Wink] [Smile]
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