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Author Topic: He didn't even LOOK Asian and/or muslim
The Drake
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Hannibal,

I know perfectly well that Israel keeps checkpoints on the border, because their threat is external. The threat in the UK (at least the one we've been discussing, and that has manifested itself this month) is an internal one.

Maybe we both agree that this is not a solution for the UK. One question about the Israel - West Bank checkpoints though. Why not just close them all permanently, except to IDF? If the intention is to seal yourselves off from the Palestinians?


Archer,

With regard to Texans - they didn't build a fence, but they did annex territory claimed and held by Mexico. Or did you think that "San Antonio" was a name given by American settlers?

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:


I am pointing out -- and continue to point out -- that the solutions applied by Israel to their terrorist problem (isolation, intensive search, assassination) are solutions that simply cannot apply to the rest of the world.

I don't see that assassinations couldn't work anyplace but Israel.

If I understand Israel's policy, they assassinate when it'd mean less collateral damage than a frontal assault upon the neighborhood the terrorist is hiding in.

I wouldn't advocate assassinations using rockets like Israel does sometimes. But a sniper at long range would be preferrable to me than a pitched battle in an apartment complex. Both sides are likely to be using weapons that'd punch completely through US-built apartment walls.

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Hannibal
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Tom, i suppliment over Archer's point, assasinations is defenetly a solution viable in other countries, and americans have started to use it too, in their operations on iraq. if you remmember... saddam's sons were destroyed in that way.

any way Tom, the fact that you dont seperate palestinian citizens from israeli citizens is what boders me, you are not isolating a group of our own people, or anything like that, we are merely blocking ourselves from palestinians.

note Tom, that EVEN though we do all those searches, still palestinians come to work in israel, no one forces them to come, and still terrorists some times DO menage to smuggle weapons.


Archer
"Maybe we both agree that this is not a solution for the UK. One question about the Israel - West Bank checkpoints though. Why not just close them all permanently, except to IDF? If the intention is to seal yourselves off from the Palestinians?"

Ah! I'd wish such thing whould happen, i wish we closed down the west bank entirely, even to the IDF. simply remove our presence from there.

but the problem in israel is that we have a minority of crazed settlers who lobby enough power to keep them there and do whatever they want. it is starting to change though with the pull out from gaza, if it was up to me, we whould pull out from the settlments in the west bank and completley shut ourselves from palestinians, even to work, we whould bring alien workers instead

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
look at the hipocracy of the world.

if heaven's forbid we israelis whould have accidently killed some civilian by mistake, all the world will say that we target innocent civilians that we torture and subude the palestinians etc.

and here to london police accidently killed some one suspected of terrorism, and people treat it as a mistake

well, itsa totally different situation and you gotta admit that the israeli police/army did do some horrendous things. from sheer memory i can recall them firing into an ambulance? plus, the london police does get criticized when are racistic and stuff. not a whole lot, but still.
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TomDavidson
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quote:

assasinations is defenetly a solution viable in other countries, and americans have started to use it too, in their operations on iraq

If the American government were to snipe an American citizen -- or even a foreign national -- on our soil without first making an attempt to arrest that person and/or subject them to a trial of some sort, and this were to become known, I don't think you can even imagine the noise that would result. If the British were to do it, I'd expect an open revolt and immediate elections for PM.

quote:

the fact that you dont seperate palestinian citizens from israeli citizens is what boders me

You're right; I don't really make the distinction. Until a couple of years ago, Israel even denied that any Palestine existed that might make such a distinction meaningful. There may someday be a distinction between Israeli citizens and citizens of Palestine, but right now it's an imaginary -- and convenient -- distinction based purely on heritage.
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Everard
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Tom, I think thats a little disingeneous. The israeli government has never taken a position that the arab's who renounced the offer of israeli citizenship are israeli citizens, OR foreign nationals.
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TS Elliot
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quote:

I don't see that assassinations couldn't work anyplace but Israel.
[/QB]

I wonder if u.s. presidents were succesfully assasinated a number of times, would that change anything? If it wasn't because of amateuristic and disfunctional Ukranian or Georgian handgrenades, bush would've been death.
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Hannibal
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Tom,

"If the American government were to snipe an American citizen -- or even a foreign national -- on our soil without first making an attempt to arrest that person "

Israel have never done so aswell, the assasinations take place in gaza and the west bank and AGAIN, you americans have done the same thing in Iraq of late and i bet it happned in manny other occasions

"You're right; I don't really make the distinction. Until a couple of years ago, Israel even denied that any Palestine existed"

really?!? wow thats nice, the palestinians still dont recognize that israel exists so we are on the same level here.

the fact that you dont recognize a distinction between israeli citizens and palestinian citizens means that you ALSO dont recognize the state of israel.

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DonaldD
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"If it wasn't because of amateuristic and disfunctional Ukranian or Georgian handgrenades, bush would've been death. TS Elliot"

Heheh - a lot of people would argue that Bush is death [Wink]

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Archer
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quote:


I don't see that assassinations couldn't work anyplace but Israel.

quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
I wonder if u.s. presidents were succesfully assasinated a number of times, would that change anything? If it wasn't because of amateuristic and disfunctional Ukranian or Georgian handgrenades, bush would've been death.

I wouldn't change anything with me.

I don't accept the premise that Israel is unique in that assassinating terrorists "works" there but it couldn't work anywhere else. There's a heckuva lot of countries and cultures in the world.

Why would you think that a terrorist assassinating the president of the US would make the american people less likely to support going aggressively after terrorists? Everything in my experience would suggest that an overwhelming number of people would be in favor of throwing the rulebook out the window and doing whatever it takes to get the SOBs.

[ July 26, 2005, 07:24 PM: Message edited by: Archer ]

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TomDavidson
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quote:
the fact that you dont recognize a distinction between israeli citizens and palestinian citizens means that you ALSO dont recognize the state of israel.
Or that I don't recognize the state of Palestine. And, no, I don't currently recognize Palestine as anything resembling a state; it is at best a puppet government presiding over a bunch of geographically scattered Israeli ghettos.
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Hannibal
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i also dont recognize a *state* of palestine, but there is going to be one in the near future.
there is a palestinian people, a palestinian authority, and even somthing that resembles a palestinian police and a rulling government

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TomDavidson
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And until then, would you agree that Israel is pretty much sovereign over Palestinian territory? That, in fact, Palestinian territory exists in name only?

What I'm trying to point out here is that you've excused a lot of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians by falling back on "well, they aren't Israeli citizens" -- but considering the accidents of birth and geography involved here, it's not like they really have a practical choice in the matter.

The Palestinian people are second-class Israelis, as far as I'm concerned, until they get their own state. Until then, the fact that Israel feels justified to treat them as anything but full citizens is not a mark in its favor.

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Hannibal
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And until then, would you agree that Israel is pretty much sovereign over Palestinian territory

the palestinian authority is divided into different zones, the A zones are in complete palestinian security and responibility and the B zones are also under palestinian responsibiliy.
if any, only the C zones are under israeli responsibility.

these things are signed in a contract. the palestinians do hold and have responsibility
Gaza for instance, is one of the A zones.

do iraqis have all the things americans have? did the vietnamese had?

you are right though, israel has some responibility for the palestinian well being and so israel gives the palestinians water, electricity, gas, medical services, phone services and gives tousands of work permits. atleast untill there will be a self sufficient palesinian state.

and again, if it was up to me, the settlers were gone, and both countries whould be locked and sealed from one another.

you know that basically the palesinians arent goodie two shoes, 20 years ago they worked freely inside israel, the checkpoints were nothing even close to what they are now.
i remmember that when i was six years old we hired palestinian buisness to make renovations in our house.
if there was no terrorism Tom, then there whould be no checkpoints. the sad truth for the palestinians is that the moment we lessen the checkpoints security level there is a suicide attack somehere inside israel, and usually the suicide bomber comes from inside A or B territories. where the palestinians have all the capabilities to block the terrorists.

so once the palestinians will fight visibally not verbally against terrorism, things will go much better for them

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Everard
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So, Tom, you'd treat people who reject citizenship, deny your existence as a state, deny your right to exist, and wage war on your civilian population, as full citizens, despite the fact that you offered citizenship at one point and it was rejected?

Further, treating them as full citizens would actually circumvent the entire peace process... and end israel as a state, permanently. The fact israel doesn't treat them as citizens is rooted not only in the fact that the palestinian people don't recognize the state of israel, but also in the fact that recognizing them as israeli would destroy israel. Would you suggest israel intentionally destroy their own nation?

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The Drake
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Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with the Pals. They should roll over. They have no power, and the only way to improve their situation is to accept that. Instead they'd rather destroy themselves and take as many as possible with them. They'd rather throw stones in defiance and get shot in the throat.

They had their own state right in front of them, but that wasn't good enough for them, and now they will likely have even less. If I spent a generation trying to find a peace with those guys, I'd throw up my hands and lay a minefield a mile wide along the entire green line. Settlers will have notice to withdraw.

Granted, my nation has never been invaded by a foreign power since becoming established, and nobody I know has ever lived under an occupation. At the end of the day, I don't care. At some point you surrender, and make your fellow countrymen do the same.

Sorry for the mini-rant. It just bugs me that either the Israelis or the Palestinians can't win their conflict after generations.

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Everard
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Well, the israeli's could easily win the conflict. It would involve genocide though, and unlike the arabs around them, the israelis don't hold with that.
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TomDavidson
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quote:

The fact israel doesn't treat them as citizens is rooted not only in the fact that the palestinian people don't recognize the state of israel, but also in the fact that recognizing them as israeli would destroy israel.

Oh, I'm not saying it's unjustified. I'm saying that it makes the Israeli "solution" to terrorism completely untenable in societies that have extended citizenship to likely suicide bombers, and consequently any criticism from Israelis on the execution of a completely different sort of protective measure may not be entirely informed.
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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
Well, the israeli's could easily win the conflict. It would involve genocide though, and unlike the arabs around them, the israelis don't hold with that.

Except that people practically accuse them of it, anyway [Frown]

But there are methods short of genocide, as I mentioned - you could just cut them off entirely. Impose a de-facto border and let them choke on it. No more work permits, no more travelling to hospitals in Israel. Done. The end.

Call it Tough Love.

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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
So, Tom, you'd treat people who reject citizenship...

Unless you know something I don't, Israel never offered citizenship to the Palestinians.
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Everard
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" and consequently any criticism from Israelis on the execution of a completely different sort of protective measure may not be entirely informed."

I'll accept that.

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Everard
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"Unless you know something I don't, Israel never offered citizenship to the Palestinians."

1948. Israel offered citizenship to all the arabs living within the territory they controled.

In late december, 1977, Menachem Begin instituted a policy towards the occupied territories that any resident of those territories who asked for israeli citizenship would obtain it.

This policy only came to an end when Israel recognized the PLO with the Olso accords in 1993.

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Archer
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Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

[ July 27, 2005, 12:08 AM: Message edited by: Archer ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
[QB] Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with the Pals. They should roll over. They have no power, and the only way to improve their situation is to accept that. Instead they'd rather destroy themselves and take as many as possible with them. They'd rather throw stones in defiance and get shot in the throat.

Yeah, like israelis and americans wouldn't do exactly the same thing were they in the Pals shoes. I think they would, unless they can only have big mouths when they have the technological advantage.
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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
[QB] Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with the Pals. They should roll over. They have no power, and the only way to improve their situation is to accept that. Instead they'd rather destroy themselves and take as many as possible with them. They'd rather throw stones in defiance and get shot in the throat.

Yeah, like israelis and americans wouldn't do exactly the same thing were they in the Pals shoes. I think they would, unless they can only have big mouths when they have the technological advantage.
Well, when the americans were over-whelmingly out-gunned and fighting for their independence against Britain (which was the biggest military power in the world of its day), I don't recall Americans setting car bombs or blowing up malls, subways, and busses full of innocent civilians.

Maybe you read a different history book?

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
Why would you think that a terrorist assassinating the president of the US would make the american people less likely to support going aggressively after terrorists? Everything in my experience would suggest that an overwhelming number of people would be in favor of throwing the rulebook out the window and doing whatever it takes to get the SOBs.

Okay, this is just theory, but let's say that these presidents where assasinated the day or the week after they were sworn in? If that happened 53 times in a row, might that not change things? And, why do you call them SOBs? You've declared war on them, they're merely doing whatever they can not to let you win. the us president is a legitimate object in their and your own view.
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Archer
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quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
Why would you think that a terrorist assassinating the president of the US would make the american people less likely to support going aggressively after terrorists? Everything in my experience would suggest that an overwhelming number of people would be in favor of throwing the rulebook out the window and doing whatever it takes to get the SOBs.

Okay, this is just theory, but let's say that these presidents where assasinated the day or the week after they were sworn in? If that happened 53 times in a row, might that not change things?
Well, like I said, it wouldn't change things for me. What are we supposed to be able to do, be able to sit down with the terrorists and agree that we aren't going to assassinate each other?

If that were going to work, we could kill off a few of their civilians tomorrow then sit down with them next week and make an agreement to quit killing each other's civilians.

quote:
And, why do you call them SOBs?
Because you don't seem to have an understanding of americans. If they assassinate a president, the american people are going to think they're a bunch of dirty SOBs who just signed their own death warrants and want to go after them. 9-11 happened and the next day the military recruiting offices were overwhelmed with volunteers wantin to go get someone.

Hitting america gets america pissed off. It might not work like that for other countries but that's how it works here.

If you hit america 53 times in a row, america is still going to be pissed off and the people are going to demand their leader, whoever that happens to be, do something about it. Now. Right now.

The only thing that could happen to make america not want to hit back is for the country to be completely destroyed as a working entity. And nuking a city or assassinating several leaders isn't going to be enough to make the country disintegrate.

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TS Elliot
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oh yeah? and still you hit iraq this way, and aid in hitting the palestinians this way you expect them to roll over. I predict that a country who would lose their leader that much in a short time, would get pretty demoralized, america included. But hey, it's all theory, so ... Nuewking Yellowstone, now that would be a real worry ...
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Archer
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I wasn't the one who said he expected the palestinians would roll over.
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The Drake
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After the first couple of times, the US president would reside in a bunker or Air Force One on a semi-permanent basis.

Regarding Americans rolling over or what tactics an occupied America would use - hard to speculate for sure. A couple of indicators are the Reconstruction and integration of the South back into the Union. You didn't have a lot of die hards still fighting the Civil War with explosives and rifles in 1910. And certainly, the residents of Atlanta probably had more reason to hold a grudge than the residents of Jerusalem.

Other Western countries like France and Belgium limited their resistance mostly to military targets, as I understand it.

IIRC, The Irish might have the Western longevity prize for keeping up rebellion, but even they gave it a rest every once in a while to regroup and build up their strength.

Many historians suggest that the Rebellion against the British Crown would have died off if stalemate had occurred for just a couple more years.

I don't intend to draw any conclusions or suggest that any of these are direct analogies.

But I will say here and now, if some foreign nation occupies California for 50 years, I'm throwing in the towel.

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Hannibal
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Drake :
"Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with the Pals. They should roll over. They have no power, and the only way to improve their situation is to accept that. Instead they'd rather destroy themselves and take as many as possible with them. They'd rather throw stones in defiance and get shot in the throat.

They had their own state right in front of them, but that wasn't good enough for them, and now they will likely have even less. If I spent a generation trying to find a peace with those guys, I'd throw up my hands and lay a minefield a mile wide along the entire green line. Settlers will have notice to withdraw.
"

to your first statment - they are jihadists, thats what wroung with them, they are being controlled for years over years by jihadists who want to destroy israel. and even if some or most of the palestinians do want to lay down the arms, consolodate their gains and establish a country. they will never admit defeat because it became a religious thing.

to your second statement - i agree 100%, only that instaed of minefieald we israelis build the wall, and its one heck of a wall the settlers can either stay with the popular palestinian population or return to israel.


by the way -
"Well, the israeli's could easily win the conflict. It would involve genocide though, and unlike the arabs around them, the israelis don't hold with that. "

"Except that people practically accuse them of it, anyway
"


people do seem to forget that we have tousands of tanks and hundreds of jet fighters not to mention other weapons... we could level the palestinians in 5 minutes, but we try so hard to minimize the casualties, we fire missiles with lessened warheads we warn the palestinians before we go to an air raid so they can clear up the buildings.

by the way, seems that the leading news paper in denemark , which was rather hostile to israel, published a leading article today calling it "we are all israelis" addmiting its error at its critisizem on israel

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Jesse
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"to your first statment - they are jihadists, thats what wroung with them, they are being controlled for years over years by jihadists who want to destroy israel. and even if some or most of the palestinians do want to lay down the arms, consolodate their gains and establish a country. they will never admit defeat because it became a religious thing."

Wow, cristian palestinian suicide bombers are jihadists too?

It's Isreal that gives veto power to any nut with a bomb who wants to destroy peace, as many of your arguments clearly show Hannibal. Time and again "we were close to peace, and a few dozen assholes attacked us, and we walked away from the table". So long as this is the case, no wall is going to solve the problem.

As far as targeted assasination, I have to say that for me the very competance of the Mosad makes the use of airstrikes suspect. You've got the best spooks in the world, but have to launch rockets into apartment buildings instead of cleanly sniping a target? The motivation is to attempt to indimidate the Palestianians through a show of force, at least, this is the only motivation I can come up with.

The policy of the forming Israeli Gov. in 47-49 toward the local arabs was schizophrenic. We've been over this a time or two before. The Gov. offered full citizenship to arabs who wanted to stay, and the majority of Israelis supported that offer, but groups like the Haganah were attacking undefended arab towns and commiting massacres which have been well documented.

Little effort was made to stop them from commiting these attrocities. It's true that the Israeli gov. couldn't afford to alienate them and had few resources to do so any way. However, it should be understable that Palestinians have always viewed this as tacit aproval of the ethnic cleansing which occured.

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Hannibal
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Wow, cristian palestinian suicide bombers are jihadists too?


there simply arent any

You've got the best spooks in the world, but have to launch rockets into apartment buildings instead of cleanly sniping a target?

sometimes we do kill them that way, some times we put bombs inside the celular phones, or in the headress of their car sits.

some times its simply easier to use a hellfire, and 90% of those attacks succeed.

It's Isreal that gives veto power to any nut with a bomb who wants to destroy peace

thats right, we do, because we control the checkpoints, every time, in order to advance the peace process, we open the checkpoints to more palestinians to work, and thus they menage to snick one suicide bomber inside.

and if we close the checkpoints the whole world and the palestinians, and Tom Davidson will say that we are segregating them.

47-49

you are talking about the 40s come on, it was totally different time back then lets not get into what your army did in the 40's and in the 60s and 70s.

maybe there were a few incidents of *slaughter* by israeli forces, there have been much more slaugghters commited by arabs back then, and they went on towards the 50s with the Fedayoun.

no wall is going to solve the problem.

so far, where ever there was a wall, it did solved the problem thats proven. no terrorist comes from a place which is walled.

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michaellofts
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The truth is that none of us were there. We do not know what was said or who said it. All we have is second hand accounts of the incident unless someone has some video that I have not seen. The police are at not at fault as long as they were acting in the best interest of the British citizens. It is a terrible tragedy plain in simple. If it is between my comrades and me or the other guy I will be deliberate in my actions and ensure that it is not me.
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Jesse
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even if it means the death of one of your comrades.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"But I will say here and now, if some foreign nation occupies California for 50 years, I'm throwing in the towel."

Herd the native Californians into Orange County and wall 'em in.

"But there are methods short of genocide, as I mentioned - you could just cut them off entirely. Impose a de-facto border and let them choke on it. No more work permits, no more travelling to hospitals in Israel. Done. The end."

I wonder, as do many others, why this hasn't been done. A common theory is the cheap labor pool aspect. Me, I don't know. But it IS curious.

"Call it Tough Love."

More honest and less confusing if we just call it "tough"?

"A couple of indicators are the Reconstruction and integration of the South back into the Union. You didn't have a lot of die hards still fighting the Civil War with explosives and rifles in 1910. And certainly, the residents of Atlanta probably had more reason to hold a grudge than the residents of Jerusalem."

Ah, but the South still had their nigrahs to oppress, suppress, and contain. Chew toys, so to speak, to distract them from their own conquest by the North. Palestinians ain't got no nigrahs: they ARE the nigrahs. Makes for an interesting situation, especially since their conquerors are folks who, for millennia, served as Niggars of the (western) World.

It is also interesting that the Roman model of granting the conquered jus civitatis -- the right to citizenship in Rome -- which worked so well for the Romans most of the time, hasn't worked for the Jews in modern Palestine-become-Israel. (Come to think of it, when it came to ancient Jewish Israel, this didn't work so well for the Romans, either; the Jews were ever chafing at the Imperial leash, and eventually 'had to be' destroyed as a national people around 70 AD.)

If Shakespeare were alive and writing today, he wouldn't be writing about British or Danish political tragedies, but rather about the Middle East. And Romeo and Juliet would be members of opposing Semitic clans (Palestinian versus Hebrew).

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michaellofts
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
even if it means the death of one of your comrades.

If it means protecting the majority from the minority, then sadly yes.
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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
Because he was a white guy, they should have let him get away?

Please re-read. Then admit to unwarranted indignation and holier-than-thou behavior.
You're the one who was saying they should have suspected him or not suspected them based on his skin color.

Maybe you should look into your own sense of indignation and holier-than-thou behavior.

I'm sorry but I'm gonna puke at all the Rabid righties getting all color blind all of a sudden. Of course ethnicity was a factor, since they got them all on CCTV! From that they knew that the perp was an Asian looking male between 20-40. And to be explicit, not because he was a white guy , but because he did not match the description, they should've waited at least 1.3 seconds before pumping him full of lead!!! If he had, in any way matched ANY part of the description, then it would be sort of defendable. But only sort of and ever so slightly. Also then, they should've waited with shooting, until they had SOMEthing solid to convince them he was up to no good.
But they didn't, and he didn't, so now he isn't.


But now, there's new damning info, which makes the term "near execution" very relevant. It seems he wasn't even BEHAVING SUSPICIOUSLY!!!
What did the police do wrong:
1. They 'building'-profiled someone. I use the word profiled since it has been proven as useless as racially profiling into finding the actual criminal, only even more so.
2. They 'building'-profiled the wrong guy according to their OWN descriptions.
3. they shot a defenseless man (he was restrained, held down) SEVEN times in the head, and once in the chest.
4. They lied about how it happened. The point that the commissioner was badly informed, doesn't fly since SOMEONE in the police DID TOO lie.
5. They WAITED SIX DAYS to even START an investigation, allowing the bungling police-men to align their story and remove god knows what more damning evidence.

I mean, really .... and these are supposed to be the good guys? the brits, the nice version of americans, with likeable Tony Blair etc etc. ?? I'm reminded of the film In the name of the Father, about the Guildford Four again, whereby the defense lawyer accidentally found some notes on evidence (which would have set these people free immediately), saying "NOT TO BE SHOWN TO DEFENSE". One wonders what evidence will be surpressed this time.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
Has anyone found yet if this guys spoke a word of english?

If you were in a foreign country and several men starting yelling and pointing guns at you, men who wearing plain clothes, would you run?

Whoa -- the officers were in plain clothes? That's an angle I didn't realize.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Archer:
quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:
quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
[QB] Honestly, I don't know what's wrong with the Pals. They should roll over. They have no power, and the only way to improve their situation is to accept that. Instead they'd rather destroy themselves and take as many as possible with them. They'd rather throw stones in defiance and get shot in the throat.

Yeah, like israelis and americans wouldn't do exactly the same thing were they in the Pals shoes. I think they would, unless they can only have big mouths when they have the technological advantage.
Well, when the americans were over-whelmingly out-gunned and fighting for their independence against Britain (which was the biggest military power in the world of its day), I don't recall Americans setting car bombs or blowing up malls, subways, and busses full of innocent civilians.

Maybe you read a different history book?

Actually in North Carolina Americans did a number of things far more horrible than that -- Loyalists against Revolutionaries and Revolutionaries against Loyalists. But that wasn't general to the whole revolution.
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