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Author Topic: Tommorow it begins.....
DonaldD
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Hannibal, I guess you meant "we should respond in kind never seen before on... known militants and military groups" Or did you mean pretty much all Palestinians?
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Hannibal
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look, i know its not politically correct and all.

but i did mean all the palestinians. because basically we cant attack tha "known millitants and millitary groups" in a way never seen before.

what whould happen if syria attacked israel Donald? we will whipe them out, especially if they will attack israeli cities, and not israeli army. on that, we might simply destory their army.

so now, that the palestinians no longer need to drive israeli army away from gaza, if they attack an israeli city, we should whipe them aswell.

and dont be so pretentious, what about the B-52 carpet bombings in afghanistan? and what about the way the american army handled falujah?

if after a palestinian attack on an israeli city, we whould have leveld a block or two in gaza, upon all its residents, they whould have kept their silence for years.

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Hannibal
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there is no room for political correctness in the ME i wish there was, but we dont have the luxary to afford it, while israeli citizens die day by day in vain
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Jesse
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Hannibal, there was not "nearly no one", there were hunderds of thousands of people living in Palestine when the modern Zionist movement began.

I am very aware that it was not entirely, or even mostly, a religious movement in it's inception. However, the goal for many was not simply to create Jewish communities (Kibutzes were derided by some as voluntary shtetles) but to create a soveriegn nation out of someone elses land.

The excuse that Native Americans didn't physicaly occupy or "work" very much of their land was often used to justify westward expansion in North America 150 years ago, but it falls short as a justification in either instance.

Why do you believe that Palestinians are somehow fundementally different from every other people on the face of the earth? During the warsaw uprising, teenage girls were launching themselves bodily into German troop carriers with a molotov in each hand.

If you make moves toward Genocide, not only will the US be forced to stop propping up your financialy insolvent nation, but the response from the Palestinians will make the intafada look like a tea party.

The more you punish Palestinian civilians, the more suicide bombers you recruit.

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lessismore
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I’ve been following the thread and those like it for some time. Trying to figure out how I really feel about and am a little surprised by my conclusion. I find the idea of war repellent, wasteful and stupid, but what may be worse is this constant “toying” with war – its war but not really. Like putting on a bandage on here and ripping off another their before the wound has healed….
I guess I don’t hold out much hope for peace. It may have even gotten to a point where the struggle itself, in that it gives meaning, is required for identity. Still I hope the Palestinians take this opportunity and demonstrate that they want to make peace. (Even if it is a trap set by Sharon, as some are suggesting, the Palestinians don’t have to step in it? Sadly that may be in the hands of a few who “know” they are right.)

There comes a time when all the wishful thinking about war must be recognized for what it is, if war is decided then let it be War. All third parties should leave and let it be decided, (it’s even possible that it has been the third party interferences that has kept this particular struggle alive so long.)
I know even that is to simplistic.

Reminds me of the ‘Intelligent Design and Science’ debate: Palestinian is at war with Israel however it does not have the structure for outright war therefore Israel can’t go to War to put an end to it. It’s a no win.

The Palestinians need a Gandhi.

Happy Birthday Hannibal may your future and that of Israel and Palestine be safe.

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lessismore
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quote:
The excuse that Native Americans didn't physically occupy or "work" very much of their land was often used to justify westward expansion in North America 150 years ago, but it falls short as a justification in either instance.
Ok, but how does that change anything today? Past justifications from any side are not helpful and the arguments are clouding the current problems.

[QUOTE] During the Warsaw uprising, teenage girls were launching themselves bodily into German troop carriers with a molotov in each hand [\QUOTE] And the Germans put a quick stop to that. What are you trying to say here?

Jesse how would you solve the problem today, no if only’s or could of’s, what action would you take today.

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KidA
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quote:
have you talked to them? how do you know what most palestinians want? and, if they have been convinced, doesnt that mean that most palestinians want israel to be destoyed?

most(if not all) palestinians defenetly want a better life standard, but its not their primary goal. their primary goal is for israel to sease to exist.

Well, my landlord is Palestinian, and I'm fairly close to him, his family, and one of his close friends (also Palestinian) is a close friend of mine who I see almost every day since he works in the conveniece store in the bottom floor of my building. We talk about politics, life, etc. on a regular basis.

(I should tell you that my landlord is the nicest landlord in the known universe. Not only is he not crooked, which is a rarity in NYC and probably anywhere, but he is also generous. He gave me and my wife rent below market just because we seemed responsible, he fixes things when they break, he offers us free food and beer whenever we throw parties in the back lot behind the store.)

All of these folks have family in Palestine. Their position - they want Gaza, West bank, and East Jerusalem. They will happily live next to Israel once that's been achieved.

BTW, nearly half the folks in my building are Jewish. They are friends with our landlord as well.

Sorry Hannibal, but I'm a little perturbed that you seem to be ready and willing to "wipe" these people and their families.

Sooner or later you'll need to learn this - the only differences between you and a Palestinian are the shoes you walk in. People are made what they are by experience.

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DonaldD
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"pretentious?" [Smile] Hey Hannibal, tell me what you really think. But before getting all the big guns out, you might entertain that I was sincerely asking for a clarification. And happy birthday, of course [Wink]

I do think, though, that blowing up a couple of blocks of palestinian "civilian" flesh would be way counterproductive in the long run. You think such a military operation would stop the palestinians dead in their tracks for years... maybe, though I expect it would take at least a second or third response for it to really sink into the determined palestinian nutjobs' (and their handlers') heads.

But in the meantime (and as Jesse so aptly pointed out) you will reap what you sow. I know that there is an impression (well, more than an impression, really) that the international community acts in an effectively anti-Israeli fashion. But Israel does have its allies and supporters - moral, financial, and military. The question is whether Israel can risk losing these at the very same time as it enrages the rest of the world.

This is all aside from the fact that part of the reason for getting the settlers out is to remove friction points between the communities. I suppose lubricating the friction points with the blood of dozens or hundreds of palestinian dead would be one way to achieve that, but I doubt it would work, myself.

And one has to wonder what effect these murders would have on the rest of Israel's immediate neighbours...

Did I say murders? Oops, I guess I did - but that is exactly how such an attack would be viewed by, oh, 99% of the world, so why quibble? The only reason Israel has retained what little of the moral high ground there exists in the region is because its reactions to suicide attacks have been proportional and directed. Levelling a couple of some of the most densely-populated city blocks in the world will pretty much erase any good will that has accrued over the past couple of generations.

Understand, I'm not saying that I would decry this action solely because it is inherently evil. Far more importantly, it would be childish, short-sighted, wasteful and utterly self-defeating. You believe otherwise. Oh well.

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Zyne
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Happy thoughts for all of you, my Israeli friends.
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Hannibal
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look, things obviously cant stay the way they are, which means that right now, the palestinans attack israeli cities, with suicide bombers or with rockets, and israel does nothing. we havnt made a targeted "assasination" attack on one of their terrorist leaders since abu-mazen came to power because we want to give him a chance to stablize his control.

but he allready made it clear he is not going to dismantle the militant groups, or even combine them to his forces, its comfortable for him that when he signed a deal of sease fire, there are still palestinians who can attack israel, while israel cant retaliate.

kidA, you asked the wrong questions, ask your land lord, about the right of return, see what he answers. have you forgotten allready? in 1999 our P.M Ehud Barak, offered the palestinians the 1967 borders, and east jerusalem as their capital. we know thats what the palestinians desserve. and they refuted it. they honestly do want to destory israel. i know that it sounds childish that i keep repeting that, but thats how it is.

you all keep say that israel has some "moral" support or higher ground then the palestinians and that it shouldnt lose it, that is so "worth nothing" you see, first of all, the world allready is not in favor with israel, no matter what we do the europeans will allways be in favor of the palestinians. our moral, isnt that high by their standards, as they even tried to put Sharon on trial last year, in the international court. and last, whats good with the world's high opinion of us, when basically we are getting killed in our own cities, and we dont have the rights to retliate?


i am not saying that we should do it NOW, like germany invaded poland. i am saying that enough is enough, had we wanted, we'd leveld the place, the palesitnians think that they "won" over the gaza strip because of their armed struggle. because of that, they will obviously keep their armed struggle to take all of israel. if they attack us now, we should level a couple of blocks kill a couple of tousands, and they will be quite. in the middle east, things are based on fear.

the palestinians are the ones who seek friction with israel, we are now pulling out from gaza, and they will keep on launching rockets on us, its just a question of time, it will happen. enough is enough.

what good is moral if 50 years from now people will remmember the israelis -- "oh they were really nice folks, with a very high moral - even when they were killed by the scores, they didnt retaliate because the ones who killed them hid behind little children"

nobody is talking about genocide here - after all we cant reach to kidA's landlord [Smile] . in the palestinians eyes, we are now weak and defeated. they think that they won, it will only encourage them to keep attacking us. do you see how twisted this point of view is? instead of consolodating their gaines, building gaza and concerning for their inner problems, which are a plenty, they WILL keep on attacking israel. just for that stupidity they deserve a couple of blocks leveled.

now Jesse, when the zionists started coming to israel, it was very scacly populated, they really did came to places where there was no one. not even on a seasonal basis.
cities were founded where the palestinians did not go, over swamps, you know that most of Gush-Dan where now 2 million israelis live on, was swamps 100 years ago? no palestinian went there, nobody in his right mind came there.
the zionists also worked on land that they bought fair and square from the automan empire. now the palestinians were living here prior, they had to know the rules of the automan empire, since it ruled the place for 400 years.

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fotwennytime
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leveling city blocks is inhuman. beat me, rape me, kill me dead, i do not have the right to destroy innocents. kill my family, friends , neighbors, and countrymen, i do not have the right to destroy innocents. all of the tragedies that have been suffered on both sides, do not justify more tragedy. i hope for the sakes of everyone involved, that someday palestinians and israeli's can see each other as branches in the same human family.

that said, i do think, from what ive heard, that the israeli military has been very restrained. i think that the training necesary for israeli soldiers to not shoot on sight any palestinian with a bulging coat aproaching an israeli gathering place, or not return fire when being fired upon, must be very well executed. the faith that these men and women place in thier governments ability to rule is amazing.

as hannibal and ricky pointed out its a very difficult situation, but as jesse pointed out using terror tactics against terrorists is pointless. if fear alone were enough to persuade people, there would be no non combatants in israel or palestine. there has been enough bloodshed to persuade most rational people to leave.

please dont interperet that to mean that i think either side is truly irrational, only that both sides seem to be acting on faith, and an inborn sense of there own moral superiority. a non religious mathematician (i think) would be looking for a nice flat in holland, rather than holding out waiting for the next attack or retaliation, to see if thier families are lessened by collateral damage.

of course this is all from my extremely naive worlview and my idealistic ramblings. at least i know that where i live, and where i grew up is so far away from this conflict, that i have very little chance of truly understanding the things being felt on both sides. my best wishes to you all, may you find the peace deserved by all innocents.

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RickyB
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Hannibal, it is simply false that we have not attempted a targetted assasination since Abu Mazen came to power. We have, several times. Other assertions you have made in this post are grossly inflated, but I don't have the time or energy to go into it.
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Hannibal
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Ricky, there was only one attemped assasination which unforitonatly failed, before Abu mazen, there was one almost every day.

also, [Smile] you allways think i over inflate, i dont think so, but feel free to qoute me and we can talk about it.

fotwennytime, nice post, i feel i need to tell you that i am not a beliving man, far from it, i blame religion on everything that happend in this conflict, and still I, and many israelis think what i think. understand that i dont want israel to kill palestinians, or anything of the sort, i am merely pointing out that now the palestinians have the ball in their hands.

if they really want a country of their own, then they've got gaza for their own, they can start build and unite their dissidant people, they can basically do whatever they want. and if i was in command in palestine that's what i'd do.
and if the palestinians, now that they've got gaza, will keep attack israel, we should retaliate in such an overwhelming force that they will cry for ages. as you said we are very restrained, and very trained.
also... about living in holland, i donno, there was a terror attack in london, whould you have believed that such a thing could happen? then why not in holland too?


I have actually wanted to post another update...
the crazed settlers do it again, a settler in the west bank decided to take a rifle and spray some palestinians, so far reports say he killed 3 palestinians. he is the second jewish terrorist, after last month's attack in the israeli druze village.

link :

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3129128,00.html

[ August 17, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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The Drake
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Did I read properly that the terrorist settler was captured? I'd like to know how that happened. Something tells me a Palestinian gunman would not be in such good shape.
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Koner
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quote:
Did I read properly that the terrorist settler was captured? I'd like to know how that happened. Something tells me a Palestinian gunman would not be in such good shape.
Yes the Israeli terrorist was captured by ISRAELI police/military. Have you ever heard of a Palistinian terrorist being captured by Palistinian police? Do the Palistinian authorities even try to find Palistinian terrorists? Something tells me that the Israeli gunman would not be in such good shape had the Palistinians found him first.

That is the difference between civilized and uncivilized peoples. The civilized people at least try to police themselves.

[ August 17, 2005, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Koner ]

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KidA
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quote:
kidA, you asked the wrong questions, ask your land lord, about the right of return, see what he answers. have you forgotten allready? in 1999 our P.M Ehud Barak, offered the palestinians the 1967 borders, and east jerusalem as their capital. we know thats what the palestinians desserve. and they refuted it. they honestly do want to destory israel. i know that it sounds childish that i keep repeting that, but thats how it is.

Ah, yes. You are correct that my memory edited out the "right of return" issue, which I did ask about, and which they did affirm the was a major (perhaps the major) demand. When you say "destroy" Israel, I'm geussing that you mean ending it's status as a Jewish state. And this is where the debate enders territory where I cannot tread without utter confusion. I argue with myself about this constantly.

Where does the "religion" of Judaism end, and the issue of "culture" begin? It seems that there are many "secular" Jews who still favor a Jewish state. I'm very slow to comprehend issues like this, since I'm a lifelong atheist, was brought up without any religion whatsoever, and have know idea what it feels like to believe that one is connected to land and community by God (my perception is that it is always by threat of physical force). I know it's a difficult question, I don't expect anyone to come up with an answer that can satisfy everyone.

I totally understand that Jews have a very special and troubled history, and that they continue to be a target worldwide. But what a trap! Our understanding of this, and the help the west gives to Israel, has paradoxically led to a perpetration (not, I wish to make clear, the origination) of the worst bigotries, and "world conspiracy" theories.

I support the right of Israel to exist, within, as you say, the 1967 borders. However, as Ricky will hopefully back up here, the 1999 debate were extremely flawed, with Barak and Araft bearing roughly equal responsibility for the failure of the talks. Each side is so suspicious of the other.

My main point, Hannibal, is that decades of conflict has led each side to dehumanize the other. Neither side is a monolith - each culture is a composed of individuals with their own opionions and experiences - but neither side can see this anymore in the other.

Israel was and is necessary. I can see that very clearly.

And yet, as my Palestinian freind said once, with a shrug: "If your land is taken by force, you take it back by force."

I can see why Amos Oz described the conflict as being betweem "right and right" - therefore defining it as tragedy. How the blazes do you overcome that? I can only see one solution - and it involves both sides realizing that as human beings, they have more in common with one another than differences - i.e., that the differences of power, economics, religion, do not mean that they are fundamentally different as people. How do you get there? I am at a loss. (I've heard of some cross-border exchange programs for school kids - a good start, I suppose).

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KidA
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Koner said:

quote:
That is the difference between civilized and uncivilized peoples. The civilized people at least try to police themselves
That is a very ignorant remark, totally ignoring the imbalance of power between the two societies.
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Koner
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[
quote:
That is a very ignorant remark, totally ignoring the imbalance of power between the two societies
Its neither ignorant nor ignoring the balance of power between those two societies. Its fact. The Palastinians do absolutely NOTHING to those members of its society that carry out terrorist acts against the Israelis. In fact they seem to do very little to even discourage them their terrorist activities.

You don't see Israeli citizens lobbing missles at Palistian settlements. You don't see Israelis blowing themselves up in the hope of killing a few Palasitinians who happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. What you do see from Isreal is measured attacks against Palastinian militant safehouses in retaliation for terrorist acts against its citizens.

Now when an Israeli grabs a gun and shoots a few random Palistinians in an act of terror what did you see? The Israeli's taking the appropriate action of arresting the gunman. I would hope that they will prosecute him for the murders he commited but as it only happened today its still too early to tell what exactly will happen.

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DonaldD
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"the crazed settlers do it again, a settler in the west bank decided to take a rifle and spray some palestinians, so far reports say he killed 3 palestinians - Hannibal"

Sooo... does that mean the Palestinians get to level a couple of Israeli blocks, or will you guys do that yourselves? [Wink]

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Hannibal
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Koner you the man,

even though we have scum like the settlers, we still try to bring them alive to the court, to be tried legally. and we DO fight them and bring them to justice, wereas the palestinians not even think of outlawing their terrorist organizations.

KidA, is there any arab country which you consider good? with good life quality and freedom status? NO
now look at israel? the most advanced country in the middle east, and more advanced them several western countries aswell. so why should we "arabise" our country and ruin it, seems to me we only lose from this agreement

another thing.... we israelis... as childish as it might be, HATE the palestinians, we dont like them, and the palestinias as childish as it might be... they HATE US too, (and i use hate, but its much more then that)

and why is that? because we are two different people and we need to seperate ourselves in two different countries with firmly stated borders. so what the palestinians want? listen carefully to their "sophistication"

they want A) to have a palestinian state, governed by palestinians, this state will be over Gaza and the West Bank there will be no jews in this land, only palestinians. but the palestinians also want B) the "right of return" which means... ASIDE to the palestinian land for the palestinians... they want millions of palestinian refugees to go to live in ISRAEL, which means that the palestinians gain two countries and we lose everything.

the only way for our two VERY different people to live in some sort of agreeable peace, is if there will be a firm border between our peoples.


so no... they dont want a country of their own they want to destroy israel

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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
even though we have scum like the settlers, we still try to bring them alive to the court, to be tried legally. and we DO fight them and bring them to justice, wereas the palestinians not even think of outlawing their terrorist organizations.

Like you try to bring rock-throwing Palestinian teenagers to court? I've given a lot of slack to Israeli soldiers in those situations, but I'm just wondering...

Will Israel arrest their terrorists and then cut them loose via the back-door like the PA has? The PA often makes a big show about arresting Pals, then quietly discharges them a few months later. Time will tell.

These resisting settlers are now enemies of Israel, just as much as the Palestinians. Let's see Israel use an equally heavy hand on these SOBs, and she will be vindicated for using force against Arabs.

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Everard
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Of course, these resisting settlers are citizens of israel, while the palestinians are not.

So...I doubt israel will use an equally heavy hand, but that shouldn't be construed as taking away the necessity of dealing with people by force, whose aim is destroying your country by force.

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Sancselfieme
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Well I've been following the news so far and it looks like the only deaths have been acts of terrorism against the Palestinians so far. A strange turn of events.

Israeli Soldiers Clear Out Gaza Strip

quote:
In the West Bank, an Israeli settler grabbed a gun from a security guard in the Shilo settlement and started shooting Palestinians, killing three and wounding two before being arrested. The killings aroused fears of Palestinian retaliation and the disruption of the evacuation mission.

Sharon condemned the shootings as acts of "Jewish terror" aimed at stopping the pullout. He said the violence was "aimed against innocent Palestinians, out of twisted thinking, aimed at stopping the disengagement."

Later, Palestinians fired a mortar shell toward the Morag settlement, but no injuries were reported. The Islamic militant group Hamas threatened to avenge the shootings but said it had an interest in seeing the withdrawal proceed.

quote:
In Kfar Darom, several hundred settlers went on a rampage, pushing large cinderblocks off a bridge and trying to torch a nearby Arab house, witnesses said. Israel troops brought the fire under control and tried to push the settlers back into Kfar Darom as Palestinians threw stones.


quote:
Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas urged restraint, telling Islamic preachers in his Gaza office: "We should let them go peacefully in order not to give them any reason to delay the evacuation."

The Palestinians have deployed thousands of troops to prevent any attacks on settlers or Israeli soldiers during the withdrawal.

I did not think a few thounsand people could cause the Israeli government so much trouble, they are quite extreme.

quote:
A 54-year-old West Bank woman opposed to the pullout set herself on fire Wednesday in southern Israel, suffering life-threatening burns over 70 percent of her body, officials said. She had the smell of gas on her, a paramedic said.

In the hardline outpost of Kerem Atzmona, irate settlers shouted at soldiers: "Nazi!""Refuse orders!" and "Jews don't expel Jews!" Soldiers dragged the flailing residents from their homes and loaded them onto buses, as children cried in the homes.

Several soldiers were hit by white paint bombs, and protesters smashed a bus window.

Some teenage activists - many of them West Bank activists - showed fierce resistance. Troops dragged dozens of protesters, some as young as 12, onto buses and took them away. "I want to die!" screamed one youth as he was hauled off.




[ August 17, 2005, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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Hannibal
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now you know why i oppuse religion?

look what we have to deal with?

the Drake, i myself, and israel dont owe you nothing, so you can keep your vindication to yourself.

israel will not relise any terrorist via the back door like the palestinians do, because israel is a normal country, we dont bring rock throwing palestinians to court, we dont even arrest them, the people we arrest are hard core terrorists.

the fact that you dont know how extreme the settlers are, shows how little you know of the situation, they are ultra extreme. they are indeed the enemies of israel, problem is they have about 20 parliment sits in the knesset to support them. it is fXXXing unbelivable, some times i truly think the country is going down the drain

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Sancselfieme
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By the way your country DOES owes the US a lot. We have provided you enormous aid every single year and international soft-power and hard-power support. Not to mention all the military technology and gifts which we normally wouldn't just let another country puchase, let alone have for free. Israel is the most stable democracy in the middle east so far and for that reason alone I think it is wise to support them, but don't think for a second that your country does not owe it's continued existance and prosperity to the US. If Israel expects this kind of support in the future they will learn to accomodate our few requests and not drag our name through the mud. One of those requests is that Israel, as the bigger, superior, and hopefully morally-correct party do everything in its power to stop unnecessary provokations that will lead to further bloodshed. Frankly, I think your government didn't assign enough troops to this pullout and these incidents could have been easily avoided.

[ August 17, 2005, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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RickyB
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Hannibal, have you ever BEEN to the occupied territories? As a civilian, not a soldier. Seeing things from the side (or goddess forbid from the Palestinian perspective)?

I don't think you have.

Along with arresting real terrorists, We arrest people EVERY DAY that have nothing whatsoever to do with terror. quite a few are people who are making enormous efforts to keep to non-violent struggle, and to convince others in their society to do the same. Our people on the ground invent trumped up charges against these people and except in very rare cases, pay no price for this even when a judge eventually rules that they were lying.

You have NO IDEA how arbitrary, callous, and petty our rule in the occupied territories is. It's not nearly as murderous as some depict it, but it is evil and infuriating in many little and big ways.

Most of the time, btw, these people are released after a week or two or three in jail, but they recieve no compensation and are often arrested again before long.

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Hannibal
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the incident, took place in the west bank, not in gaza, there were no incidents there. and no one expected this 40 year old family man who drives and eats launch with his workers to suddenly go on a shooting spree and kill them.

your government doesnt give anything to israel for free, you give us money, of which we can buy only american goods with, we PAY it back in payments, american companies, KNOW that we CANT use the money anywhere else so they charge double price for those goods. so YOUR money returns to YOUR industry TWICE - once when we buy with it, and once when we pay it back. you dont let our LOCAL industries grow, and ween out of your dependency, you basically make us more and more dependent on purpose.

Frankly, i think your government and the european governments are very good at telling israel how to react, and what to do, but when some one attacked you we all know what you did. and we experience it for 56 years, way way before we controlled the palestinian territories.
so dont take it on the occupation.

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Hannibal
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"You have NO IDEA how arbitrary, callous, and petty our rule in the occupied territories is. It's not nearly as murderous as some depict it, but it is evil and infuriating in many little and big ways. "

i agree 100%, thats why we need to get the hell out of there and build a wall.

we cant errect settlements over there, and use the settlements as an excuse to blockade the palestinians.

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Sancselfieme
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
the incident, took place in the west bank, not in gaza, there were no incidents there. and no one expected this 40 year old family man who drives and eats launch with his workers to suddenly go on a shooting spree and kill them.

your government doesnt give anything to israel for free, you give us money, of which we can buy only american goods with, we PAY it back in payments, american companies, KNOW that we CANT use the money anywhere else so they charge double price for those goods. so YOUR money returns to YOUR industry TWICE - once when we buy with it, and once when we pay it back. you dont let our LOCAL industries grow, and ween out of your dependency, you basically make us more and more dependent on purpose.

Frankly, i think your government and the european governments are very good at telling israel how to react, and what to do, but when some one attacked you we all know what you did. and we experience it for 56 years, way way before we controlled the palestinian territories.
so dont take it on the occupation.

Even if this were the case, which I don't think it is, it's still free money and services, just probably not as much as you would like to have. But hey, if your government thinks it's so abusive why not just stop accepting the money and also start paying back all the aid we've ever given you. Then you can do what you want without having to answer for us. I don't think you would like funneling half your country's GNP into defense to make up for the lack of weapons and technology we give you.

We DO tell Israel how to react sometimes because
1. We have chosen to help Israel out in numerous ways, if they want any of that help to continue they will comply.
2. Israel is an embodiment of western-style democracy in a fragile region and should serve as a model for the democratic transformation we wish to occur there. We will act accordingly to make sure they act this way.
If you don't like the above two reasons then
3. We are more powerful than Israel.

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Hannibal
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"it's still free money and services, stop accepting the money and also start paying back all the aid we've ever given you" you didnt listen? we do pay, it will take years till we finish paying.

what about all the money you gave to the european countries? you gave them much more, and they dont give a S--- about what you think, and they even dont intend to pey their debts.

3. We are more powerful than Israel.
OOOoooOOOooo

that could have been the grandest display man kind have made over this planet, but we whould probably lose yes, even if it whouldnt be as easy as invading iraq [Smile] , i think some one started a thread about this a while back


so you say that israel should let its citizens die, for nothing, because if not, the united states will destroy israel? what a mighty ally you are

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Sancselfieme
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No, you are wrong, Israel gets the most foreign aid that the US gives out, and I don't think we expect to get it paid back.

As I understand it, there are only slight restrictions surrounding the use of jyst the money we give you (I think it is 12 billion). We do not have stipulations for your overall budget, so even if we were requiring you to spend that 12 billion on our goods and services, you don't have pay us back anything.

quote:
so you say that israel should let its citizens die, for nothing, because if not, the united states will destroy israel? what a mighty ally you are
Yes that is what I am saying! [Roll Eyes] What I was obviously saying is that we expect Israel to police itself better than the Palestinians and not let its people go out and become terrorists themselves. Your country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy and order in the middle of a chaotic region, and unless Israel wants to be ultimately treated as a terrorist or unreasonably-agressive state, it should behave itself.

[ August 17, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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The Drake
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Here's a good question. Why not just leave the settlers there to be butchered by the Arabs? Then build your wall.

And no, Israel certainly doesn't have to curry the favor of one random American like me - or anyone else. Israel must do what Israel must do. However, one should not also be surprised at negative reactions to a perceived softness with regard to fanatical settlers. Because if anything, one must stamp out this behaviour even more zealously within their own population.

Allies of the US are allies because we recognize mutual self-interest, just like all of our allies. Israelis certainly don't owe some debt of gratitude, like those military supplies were some kind of Hannukah presents. Israel has paid us back with our influence in the area, bombing Middle East nuclear facilities, intelligence, and lots of other mutual benefits.

Even if the US and Israel should drift apart, like the US and France, we will largely have respect for each other.

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RickyB
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Drake, I answered that earlier in the thread.

quote:
Ev, would that we could do that. But then they'd get slaughtered, do some terrible laughtering of their own first, and our public wouldn't stand for it. It would poison the whole process. We'd be held responsible for their crimes in the eyes of the world, so what would be the point?

Also, you have to understand that the settlements in the Gaza Strip are insane, in that they are sprawling suburban/rural type places in the middle of the most over populated piece of land in the world. The settlements of the Qatif block basically choke off the natural expansion space of the city of Khan Younis.

Even if relations between Palestinians and Israelis were 100 times better, there's no way the Palestinian authority could tolerate their continued existence. The palestinians need the land too badly. It's also why we couldn't make a deal to leave and sell the houses. The Palestinians have no use for this type of housing, and it would only cause resentment towards the lucky few that would get them. Where 8,500 Jews have hitherto lived, at least 10 times as many Palestinians will be settled. Probably more. And still be better off than they are now.

Besides, even though the Gaza settlers aren't as whacked as some of the West Bank ones, it just wouldn't work socially. Too much bad blood. What we need right now is separation. Let both sides have a break from each other and learn that their real problems aren't due to the other side. Then we can start cooperating sensibly.


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Hannibal
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Drake, i have no answer for your question, i wish we had. i honestly dont know why we needed to force them, if it was up to me, had they wanted to stay? cest-la-vie welcome to palestine for them.

"we expect Israel to police itself better than the Palestinians and not let its people go out and become terrorists themselves. Your country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy and order in the middle of a chaotic region, "

Israel does all those things. but how much do we need to take? the world hates us, we cant get lower then this. i dont care that this is the case, i am just saying, if they allready think that we slaughtered palestinians in Jenin what does it matter, anoter slaughering?

that the israeli civilian population is being attacked by palestinian terrorists, whom the palestinian goverment, has no intention to stop, doesnt matter to them.

how whould you react if mexico launched rockets on your southern cities? how whould any country react when its civilian population is attacked by another?
only israel is expected to act "morally" when no one else even gets as half as moral as we do. why do we need to suffer this?

and all i am saying is that, now, if the palestinians supposedly wanted peace with us and a country of their own, they allready have a major part of it to control and maintain, it could be good training for them. and if the palestinians attack us now, that it is ovious that can do LOTS of things that they should do. it merely proves that that they dont seek peace with us, and thus we can retaliate severly on them. no need to enter to gaza again, just a squad of F-15s

how did america handled the resistance in falujah? shall we use the same "non distractive" method? we can be more efficient and less harmfull to surroundings , much more, unforitonatly it doesnt deter the palestinians. what deters them is fear.

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Jesse
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Hannibal, once upon a time a Mexican revolutionary named Pancho Villa *DID* attack one of our towns.

We behaved like civilized people and tried to hunt him down, we didn't just invade some random mexican town and murder an equal number of civilians.

Fear sure has done a great job of detering them palestinians so far. Hell, until some proto-Israelis gave em a good old dose of fear, they didn't even know they WERE palestinians.

An answer? Step one is as simple as it is impossible.

"We're sorry we chased you out of your villages at gun point, we're sorry we stole your land when you fled from conflict as civilians are prone to do, but there isn't any going back from this point. We're not going to compensate you in cash for the homes and livestock you lost, but rather in material improvements to your infrastructure and educational opportunites. We're attempting to purchase land from our neighbors equal to the 80% of present day Israel we never paid cash for, and will allow the future Palestinian state to use or distribute this land as they see fit.

Whatever technical assistance we can provide in planning sanitation and irragation, we are at your disposal.

For the present, Israel and Palestine must remain divided by a strong and well defended border for the security of both our peoples. Perhaps, some day, we can loosen those borders, but this is not the time.

Those who were themselves denied the right of return and have immediate family still living in the state of Israel may petition the Israeli government for reunification and return, and provided that they do not have a personal history of violence which poses an unreasonable security risk, will be allowed to immigrate"

Or, do you think at most 10-15 thousand people who are at least 57+ years old would destroy Israel as a Jewish state?

We have three posibilities. 1) the genocide of the Palestinian people 2) ontinued violence 3) an attempt by Israel to redress the wrongs it committed against several hundred thousand families.

No one but The Creator will ever forgive us for things we are unwilling to apologize for.

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Hannibal
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you blame israel for everything that happned to the palestinians.

you know that Gaza, was an egyptian territory, and that the West Bank was a jordanian territory, those two countries never took responsibility over the palestinians, and kept them under crappy conditions in refugee camps on purpose. they have as much part of this as israel, even more.
you see, when israel was founded (unlike now when palestine is being founded) the last thing we wanted to do, was to go to war with the 100 million arabs who surround us, so we extended our hand in peace, and told the native arabs to stay in their homes and remain citizens of israel, (it didnt bother them to be citizens of the british empire, or of the automan empire before) at this stage nobody did anything to them.
but arab countries, decided to wipe israel out, they promised the palestinians a quick vicotry, and URGED them, to leave their homes, just to return in a short while after we are destroyed. those countries included Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon etc. during the battles many palestinians fled israel, but the motivators for this were not israeli. had the other arab countries didnt attack israel back then, the palestinians whould have HAD a state of their own, and even have palestinians in the state of israel.
the arab countries lied to the palestinians, and eventually even annexed the territories promised to them under the UN resolutions, and then kept the palestinians under hellish conditions, just to presure israel.

and you blame it all for israel, WE need to rebuild gaza,

as for the rest of your post :

"Whatever technical assistance we can provide in planning sanitation and irragation, we are at your disposal."

you dont understand the situation, ANY thing we will help them to make, they will destroy, they hate us so much they whouldnt want it. honestly it is the truth, the last thing the palestinian leadership want to do is to have israel to help them.

"We behaved like civilized people and tried to hunt him down, we didn't just invade some random mexican town and murder an equal number of civilians."

we dont either... we know exactly where they shoot the rockets from, but we dont retaliate because its from a densly populated area, understand that they can launch the rockets from within windows, and from porches, or roofs of buildings. i am simply suggesting that we will stop restraining ourselves.

and what about your "Dulitle Raid" after the attack on purl harbour? what about the leveling of drezden, hambourg, berlin, what about the A-bombs? and the fire-bombings on tokyo? you knew that most buildings there are made of wood, and specifically used incednary bombs to increase the fire. how civilized you are. what about the naplam bombs in vietnam?

"An answer? Step one is as simple as it is impossible. "

as i cleared before, the arab countries have inflicted much more harm then us, had they did not attack israel, even the palestinians who stayed within israel could have stayed.
at the most, i am willing to agree to a joined statment signed by israel and all the participants of the war of indipendence, and i whould like to see whats written before i sign on it.


"Or, do you think at most 10-15 thousand people who are at least 57+ years old would destroy Israel as a Jewish state?" and their children, and their children's children.
and what about a million palestinians who live in the palestinian territories and want to move to israel?

no that simply wont cut it, the palestinians are about to have a country of their own, the palestinians place is there. if they want family reunification, they can all move to the palestinian land, and reunite there, not in israel.

why do they want it so much? because they know that living in palestine will be crap, and living in israel is great in relation to their countries, 60 years ago, when living in israel was crap too, they didnt mind, but now seeing israel as it is, they dont want to live in palestine but in israel. and we dont allow this.


"We have three posibilities. 1) the genocide of the Palestinian people 2) ontinued violence 3) an attempt by Israel to redress the wrongs it committed against several hundred thousand families."

as i said, israel is not the sole element in the palestinians situation, and it is not even the main element, responisbility for their situation is on the arab nations.
i did not say we should genocide them and i did not say that violance should continue.

for israel there is one posibility : to withraw back to the 1967 borders, as much as possible (removing the city of Ariel for instance... thats a problem) building a concrete wall between israel and palestine.
the palestinians have two possibilities...
1) joice in the fact that finally they are starting to have a territory of their own and start building their country
2) they can keep on attacking israel, even though they DO have a country of their own - which is a Casus-Beli, and thus israel is entitled to reply in full force, just as if, it was an attack by syria.

i am sure that if syria decided to attack israeli cities, you whouldnt say anything had israel leveled them in 3 days.
and again, that brings us back to fear, you see, the syrians dont attack us, because they know we will destroy them in less then a week. the palestinians have no problem to keep attecking us indefenetly because they know our hands are tied behind our backs, once they'll know what the syrians know (learend during 67, 73, and 82) they will keep to themselves aswell

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Hannibal
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so it begins, "phisical" eviction of settlers have begun, the police and the army, have begun to pull out the settlers who barricaded themselves inside the synagouge in Neve Dekalim
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Hannibal
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in case you are watching CNN now, they are yelling that "a jew does not expell another jew"

well we are only moving them a little bit [Smile]

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lessismore
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quote:
Step one is as simple as it is impossible.
could have been, should have been, if only, if only, if only...people were reasonable... a simple impossible solution…
Last night I heard a Hamas leaders declare the pullout a victory resulting from their “tactics” and their right to continue its armed campaign. Where is the hope?

[ August 18, 2005, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: lessismore ]

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Hannibal
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no hope, no partners for peace treaty, thats why we are pulling out one sidedly, and thats why we have to strike severly on the palestinians, if they continue attack us after the pullout.
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