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Author Topic: Tommorow it begins.....
Athelstan
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Sixty years ago there was the British Mandate of Palestine. It was taken by conquest from the Turks during the First World War. In 1922 78% of the population was Muslim. Under the terms of the Mandate the British worked with the Muslims to prepare them for self government (Yeah I know). It was the Muslims who were in the Police Force. It was a minority of Jewish population who were the terrorists. Menachem Begin and his Irgun gang were responsible for the murder and mutilation of British soldiers. But time moves on and in 1977 Begin became Prime Minister of Israel and later paid a state visit to Britain. Britain bit its tongue and shock his hand. You have to live in the World of Now.
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Hannibal
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Athelstan, the purpose of the british mandate was NOT to create a muslim state in israel.

the british were commited to the establishment of a jewish state since a document they issued on the 29/11/1917 called the "Balfour Declaration" where they commit to create a jewish state over the land of israel. they dont commit to a date, or to its borders and size, but they do commit to a jewish state on the land of israel.

it is also wrong what you said that the jews were terrorists, there were groups like the Etzel(what you call Irgun) , Lehi, and Hagana, who WERE on the brittish terrorist group but there were also many arab bands, actually the jewish groups were created BECAUSE arab bands started massacring jewish villages (the pogroms of 1919-1921) the meaning of the word "Hagana" in hebrew is "protection" and that was the biggest and most moderate organization, who didnt consider the british as its enemies, and even HELPED them during WWII. the etzel adn lehi were more militant, but they were tiny compared to the Hagana.

when Israel was founded, israeli leaders were mature enough to understand that a democracy cannot exist with militant groups, so the moment israel was founded the etzel and the lehi were OUTLAWED, and forced to hand over their weapons, or join the IDF (based opun the hagana). there is a famous story of the supply ship Altalena, which brought weapons for the Etzel only and they refused to hand them to the IDF, even though israel was in dire situation, and in desperate need of weapons the PM (Bengurion) ordered the ship sunk and destroyed.

Yasser Arafat, was the leader of the fatah, and was responsible to hundreds if not tousands of dead israeli civilians, not soldiers, civilians, and still our P.M itzhak rabin tried to deal with him, brought him to israel and shook his hand, and the entire state of israel bit its tongue, gave him his un-earned chance, which he ofcourse blew.

how many mistakes can a person write in a single post...

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Hannibal
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shall i translate the meaning of Hamas? or Islamic Jihad? or the PLO ?

they all mean - "the end of israel"

are the palestinian leaders, who try to create a democracy, going to dismantle and outlaw the palestinian militant groups?

in palestine, it is the opposite, the moderate organization (if there even is one) is the smallest and weakest, and the more powerfull ones are organizations like the Hamas, and Islamic Jihad who are hundreds of times bigger and more founded then the Etzel and Lehi.

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RickyB
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Nov. 29 was the UN partition. Balfour was issued on Nov. 2nd.

Also, the PLO has far more members than Hamas. Hamas may be threatening them in the polls, but the PLO is NOT the smallest and the weakest. It is older and better established throughout society. No Hamas leader was ever universally accepted as leader of the Palestinians.

The Altelena story, though, is extremely apropos. The Palestinians have got to lay down the law if they want to have the rule thereof. Either they enforce a coexistence on their side, or there won't be one.

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Jesse
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And, before Balfour, the entire region was promised to Prince Fiesel (sp) in return for his assistance against the Turks.

Right, turn in your weapons and walk away free of punishment for Diar Yasin, Abu Kabeer, Qisarya, Haifa, ect. How incredibly just.

Hannibal, you've already admited in other threads that the removal of Arabs from within the 48 borders was essential to the creation of a democratic and jewish Israel. Without the removal of that population, jews would have been a minority from day one.

We're often talking about two different things. You're talking about the policies of nations and I'm talking about people.

The father of one of my friends, who is now deceased, was an arab who owned acreage which happened to fall within the 1948 boundaries of Israel. He never owned a gun, or killed anyone. In his own words "I never cared if they said the Turks or the British or the Jews were in charge, I cared if it rained enough for the goats to get fat".

In 1948, the Igrun showed up at his house, dragged everyone outside, and said they were looking for some sniper that had been firing on them from the house. He said they were free to search all of his property and asked them to stop tearing up his furniture. He caught a rifle butt in the face, and was stomped for a few minutes by half a dozen men in front of his family.

They left, threatening to burn the house and kill all the livestock if anything like that happened again.

Weeks later, shells started falling near his house. He said he didn't know who the hell was firing them. He rounded up his family and what they could carry and ran.

They wound up in a refugee camp and after several years of being refused any claim to their land, they immigrated to the US with the help of one of his shirt-tail relatives who was working for our Immigration and Naturalization services.

Was he owed an appology Hannibal?


I can go one better if you want Dresden details Hannibal...the RAF engaged in a practice raid a few months before and then used surveilance planes the observe the response time of emergency services.

In the actual raid, they used this information to delibrately time the second wave of their attack to catch firefighters in the open.

So what? How the hell is it relevant? "The palestinains have no right to be upset with us, other populations have been treated in even more horrible ways than we treated them?"

They have every right to despise the State of Israel Hannibal. It's policies have treated them as sub-humans for generations. You, yourself, speak of them as such.

This does NOT give them the right to murder Israeli non-combatants.


I didn't say you advocated genocide Hannibal, I said that the policy you advocate (retribution against a civilian population) can only lead to genocide in the end.


The central question here, however, which I will not stop pressing you on until I recieve a clear and concise answer, is "By what moral right did the State of Israel claim soverienty over this territory."

You've tried arguing right of conquest. If some more powerful nation invades Israel, terrorizes the civilian population, claims the land, and then refuses to allow any Israeli who fled any compensation, you see that as completely just.

"Conquest by proxy", the Balfour argument, doesn't hold any more water. "I'm not giving your bike back. This guy stole it and told me I could keep it, so I'm keeping it."

You've tried vaccumen dominicus, the argument that "No one lived here anyway". Apparently, it would be perfectly all right for any people of any origin to move into an undeveloped part of the Negev and proclaim themselves a little nation as long as they made capital improvements to previously unused land?

The U.N. resolution creating the Israel? Would make for a convincing argument, except for the fact that it was virtually the last UN resolution anyone in the Israeli government apparently bothered to read.

So, what, in the end, is the justification Hannibal? Have you got one that holds up to any scrutiny?

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Hannibal
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what you mean Jesse, is since you discharge any legal justification of israel, that in your mind israel should not have existed

what moral justification? first of all, jews allways lived here, since bilibal times, that is a proven historical fact.
secondly, all along the history, jews were being slaughtered and mistreated by the world's sociaties, the zionist movment was greatly effected by the fact that jews were being pogromed in russia.
since the jews saw that during those times (which were called the "spring of nations") many peoples got a country for their own, the jews wanted the same thing.

you even stated that the land was promised to some beduin leader from saudi arabia, why is that? because no-one recognized the arabs who lived here as palestinians, you see, even they themselves did not considered themselves a different people then arabs who lived in egypt etc, only once they saw that a state in israel is about to be founded that they developed their national identity.


"you've already admited in other threads that the removal of Arabs from within the 48 borders was essential to the creation of a democratic and jewish Israel. Without the removal of that population, jews would have been a minority from day one." i never admited such thing.

infact i stated that had the arabs stayed, they whould have remained israeli citizens. we now have more then million arabs who stayed and they ARE israeli citizens. had this been the situation with the refugees to begin with, had they stayed, then they whould have been israeli citizens.
note that once israel was founded the Etzel (Irgun Tzvai Leumi - National Militant Organization) was OUTLAWED just because of stories like the one you mentioned. and in some cases like the Altalena story - even attacked by the Hagana.

but since they have not stayed, its their lost, certainly israel is now better off, then what was offered to it in 1947, you cant expect any israeli in is right mind to agree to turn back the wheel. back then israel whould have agreed to any partition offer, right now defenetly no.

"They have every right to despise the State of Israel Hannibal. It's policies have treated them as sub-humans for generations. You, yourself, speak of them as such."

i admit i am, i dont view them any better then they me, had you got to know them, your views might have been the same. thats not the point.
ofcourse they have lots of reasons to hate israel and israelis, and ofcourse israelis have lots of reasons to hate palestinians, on that you have to agree.

so why do the palestinians INSIST on living with israelis? the best solution is TWO SEPERATE states, once for israelis, and one for palesitnians. whats the freakin problem?

didn't say you advocated genocide Hannibal, I said that the policy you advocate (retribution against a civilian population) can only lead to genocide in the end.

why whould it? where the germans genocided? infact less germans died then the jews they killed in the death camps.

listen to WHY i say israel should retaliate the way it should - right now after the pullout the palestinians will finally get a territory that they can run on themselves, FOR themselves and BY themselves. if they wanted a country so much, then they should use the chance to build one, if they attack israel now, it means that attacking israel is more important to them, then having a country, and we israelis need not tolerate this.

"Conquest by proxy", the Balfour argument, doesn't hold any more water. "I'm not giving your bike back. This guy stole it and told me I could keep it, so I'm keeping it.""

again, the arabs who lived here Never where the ones who owned and controled the land. they were considered by themselves, and by the other nations as arabs, so no one had a problem with giving a small part of the land here to the jews since the arabs who are quite spread thin, had a huge territory.

"it would be perfectly all right for any people of any origin to move into an undeveloped part of the Negev and proclaim themselves a little nation as long as they made capital improvements to previously unused land?"

and again, this land was never under any soverign rule, no body owned it, this example is false.

"The U.N. resolution creating the Israel? Would make for a convincing argument, except for the fact that it was virtually the last UN resolution anyone in the Israeli government apparently bothered to read."

Ha Ha Ha, such a funny sarcastic statment, and the palestinians, they abide by one less UN resolution then us - this one.

seriously do the palestinians abide to any UN resolution? do they abide to any treaties the SIGNED with israel?

israel holds to much more treaties then you think.

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Athelstan
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History is an opinionated subject and as my last entry was apparently full of false opinions I thought I jot down a few more.

The Balfour declaration was a letter from A J Balfour, British Foreign Secretary, to Lord Rothschild. In 1917 the First World War was going badly for Britain. There were rumours that certain Jews might withhold their financial help for the War and it was suggested a letter stating the idea of Jewish Homeland in Palestine would have governmental support would go down well. Balfour was from the Victorian Age and thought a personal letter between gentlemen would never be made public. His trust was misplaced but the contents of the letter in no way reflected British Governmental Policy.

The British Mandate of Palestine was given to Britain after the end of the First World War by the League of Nations. Palestine was a Class A mandate so the British were required to develop Palestine to become an independent nation. The mandate did require the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine but also the safegaurding of all rights of all inhabitants. I suppose its how you define “Jewish national home in Palestine” The British tried to stop Jews going to Palestine so you could say their policy was pro Arab but the Arab Congress never recognised the Mandate.

Dresden keeps cropping up on web sites and it is used as a club to beat the RAF. People seem to think that the War was over by then and there was no need to bomb Dresden. No mention is made of the thousands of Britons who were killed, right up to the last week of the war, by the V1 and V2 rockets. South East England is full of stories just as tragic as those from German Towns. These rockets could have contained anything and Germany was showing no signs of surrendering. If the rockets were falling on me I might try anything to stop it. Still as Bob Dylan sung “We forgave the Germans and now we are friends”. I better not complete the verse.

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Everard
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"Right, turn in your weapons and walk away free of punishment for Diar Yasin, Abu Kabeer, Qisarya, Haifa, ect. How incredibly just."

JEsse, you realize that the massacres committed by the Jews were dwarfed by the massacres committed against Jews, in the period 1947-1951?

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Hannibal
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in 1917, the the americans, just joined the war in europe, so it didnt go that bad for the english, further more, in the ME front, the australians brigade allready conquerd Be'er sheba by 1917, and were defeating the turks.

in that letter, it is written that his majesty the king, sees it in favour to establish a jewish homeland over the land of israel.


what are you saying? that like "allways" jews held the fate of the free world in their hand and that the english had to suck up to them in order to get the money to win the war?

the letter didnt came out of thin air, Sir. Haim Weissman (who donated a great deal to the brittish army, by inventing better explosives and anthiseptics) tried for a long time to get that letter out. and by his pressure and requests, that the letter was sent to Lord Edmund de Rothschild. who back then was a great filantrop and founded many of the jewish villages on the land of israel.


thats right, it was a class A mandate because the brittish wanted to abide their words of the balfour decleration. the first magistrate in israel Lord Herbert Samuel, was a great sympathetic to the jewish zionism movment. unfortionatly, thats where the time that the palestinians started terrorising and pogroming jewish villages. instead of trying to stop the palestinian terrorists, the brittish slowly turned more and more in favour to the palestinians - who saw this, and only increased their pogroms and slaughter acts. - seeing that the british arent going to stop them, the jewish settlements founded the Hagana.

as for your mentioning on Dresden, yes i know that tousands of britos died by V1 and V2 rockets, tousands of israelis also died by suicide attacks, but we are expected to restrain ourselves arent we? while the highly moral RAF leveled a city.

so what if the germans bombed your cities, is that a justification to sink to their level and bomb their cities?

We forgave the Germans and now we are friends”

that is the POINT of it all. why did you forgive the germans, or to put it more clearly, why there is a prosperous peace treaty between germany and the rest of europe?

because there are FIRM BORDERS SEPERATING THE GERMAN PEOPLE FROM THE FRENCH, THE ENGLISH THE ITALIANS etc.

thats why, you forgave them, because you agreed on your borders, and have no intent of mingling your peoples togather. that is exactly what things should be in israel - a complete seperation between israel and palestine, with palestinians living on the 1967 territories, and israelis living inside the green line.

after that - being accomplished, we might actually have some sort of treaties with them

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Jesse
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Hannibal, let me make something clear.

I do not question the right of Israel to exist today, anymore than I question the right of the US or Australia to exist.

The destruction of the state of Israel is not an agenda I share. It would be no more moral to terrorize Israeli families into leaving their homes and then seize their land than it was to do so to the Palestinians.

You speak about who "owned" the land in terms of nations, while I am speaking about who owned the land in terms of individuals and families.

I don't know if you or your family own property Hannibal, but if you broke your back to create something you wanted to pass one to your son one day, and were forced to walk away from it for what you believed was a brief period....and were told when attempting to return it was no longer yours.....

Well, my guess is you'd be pretty damned bitter about it.

I am aware that some Israelis desperately wanted Arabs to stay, in fact most of the credible evidence of what happened at Dair Yasin comes from such Israelis.

We both know, however, that the goal was to create a Jewish Homeland. With an Arab majority, a Democracy would have been Arab dominated.

Again, and again, and again, I am not saying that the manner in which Israel was established was better or worse than the manner in which hundreds of other nations were established.

With a few exception involving rogue commanders, the worst thing the Haganah did was turn a blind eye to activities of the Igrun and like groups.

And who can really blame them when they were doing battle with vastly numerically superior forces at the time? Such is the chaos of war.

That, in no way, serves to eliminate the debt owed for stolen land. It was not the Igrun that refused to allow Arab civilians to return after they fled from conflict.

I could not be in more agreement with you about the need for firm and secure borders.

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The Drake
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I don't care about the history at this point in time. I'm glad that Israelis have taken this important step. It must have been hard for them, it clearly was hard for them.

NOW LET'S DEMAND A RECIPROCAL SHOW OF GOOD FAITH FROM THE PALESTINIANS!

The world opinion can best support this positive step by the Israelis by praising the effort and making it clear to Palestinians that we expect no less than a total cessation of any violence on Israel's border and inside Israel.

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Hannibal
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cant argue with that, and what if the palestinians keep on with thier usual selves?
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fotwennytime
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international opinion aside, if the nation of palestine attacks the nation of israel, im pretty sure that means its on.

terrorist attacks internal to a nation are one thing, punitive force against civilians for terrorist attacks are wrong and would only increase terrorist activities.

if a palestinian attack on israel is terrorist in nature after the separation, then palestine will have an obligation to work with international authorities to capture and punish those responsible, otherwise george w or whatever bush is in power at the time, is gonna make palestine a stop on the lets get the terrorists trail.

if a palestinian attack on israel is military in nature, then its on. god save the innocents.

it would be a great tragedy to see a newly founded nation destroyed. i fully agree that israel needs to keep thier arms showing right now. but if an attack is commited by an individual, i hope israel will show the same patience they have for a few more years in order to give thier neighbor a chance to form some kind internal stability. give them time to police themselves.

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Hannibal
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attacks are allways carried out by individuals, this is how the palestinians work.

you see, we sign a peace treaty with them. and then the Hamas which is bounded to to sease fire (very loosly but lets leave that for now) "creates" a "temporary" new proxy terror organizations which is not bounded by the sease fire, and suicide and rockets attacks are being carried out.
then the palestinians come to us and say "what do you want from us? we signed the peace treaty its this anonymos organization which is at fault"

and we cant to jack**** because we are also bound by the sease fire.
thats the palestinian modus operandi of a sease fire agreement.

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RickyB
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Once Palestine is an actual state, there will be more ways than the military to punish them.
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fotwennytime
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exactly Ricky, and more nations aside from just israel to be interested in punishing them. this will no longer be an israeli internal problem, it will be an international problem. it wont be anywhere near as easy for other nations to downplay israeli sacrifices, when your defending your borders from an outside aggressor.
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RickyB
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Precisely :-) There will be trade agreements that could be subjected to sanctions and all kindsa things.
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Hannibal
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you two honestly believe that countries like france, england, germany, the scandinavians will ever think the palesinians at fault and should be punished?
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RickyB
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Hannibal, do give it a damn rest. You have no idea how fanatical this insistence on "everybody hates us no matter what we do" makes you sound.

Riddle me this, if you will: Who was it that began putting pressure on Syria to leqave Lebanon and stop messing with its politics? Who was it that pushed a resolution that Lebanon should disband Hizballah?

Oh, right, the fockin froggies. What a shock. I wonder how we can explain it? </sarcasm>

Just like leaving Lebanon made the world treat us a lot more fairly regarding our border there, the same will happen regarding the Palestinians. Nobody really likes them either, so don't worry about it so much [Smile]

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Hannibal
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ill believe it when i see it.

i think that the europeans point of view concerning israel was allways effected by arab oil and not the palestinias.

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RickyB
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Well, disengagement is over. I must say, I'm pleased to be proven wrong. I estimated 5-7 casualties. Wasn't even close to one.

Mind you, though, that none of the settlements that have been evacuated was really hardcore. When it comes time to evacuate Itamar, Yitzhar, Neve Tzuf and Tapuach, not to mention Qiryat Arba and Hebron - then I'm afraid there will be blood.

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Pete at Home
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I agree with you about just leaving the settlers and warning them that Israel is withdrawing protection.

Perhaps the Palestinians would not kill them -- some of them -- the ones that use the ridiculous apartheid comparison, say that they would live peacefully with the Jews in a single state, and the Europeans generally echo that nonsense. Well, here's a chance to test it.

If I were Sharon I would have withdrawn from most of Gaza but kept the strip between Egypt and the rest of Gaza, to prevent weapons smuggling until the terrorism dies.

As for counterattacks, I think you have the right principle but the wrong application. Yes there need to be consequences, but the fanatics aren't worried about threat to life. If you started taking little bits of land in retaliation, and declaring them permanently part of Israel, as Dijja (the Muslim concept of weregild, i.e. the primitive concept of a wrongful death settlement), that might have an effect.

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Hannibal
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"If I were Sharon I would have withdrawn from most of Gaza but kept the strip between Egypt and the rest of Gaza, to prevent weapons smuggling until the terrorism dies. "

but then people like TS elliot and Jesse will say that we deprive the palestinians the right for their borders!

the counter attacks i propose we should make are not aimed at the hammas, they are aimed at the palestinian population for the sake of them understanding that if the hammas continues we retaliate and make their lives miserable like nothing they have experienced before. - in order to make them wanna fight the hammas

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RickyB
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Look, people, it's really simple: occupation doesn't end until you leave ALL the territory, or have it granted to you by the other side.

Either the Palestinians are to have a state or not. What we Israelis (and those who, strangely, insist on immitating our neuroses) must do, is get over the compulsion to control the Palestinians. We should stop gripping them by the neck lest they do something awful to us. They've been trying, been doing their worse, and it's far from a strategic threat to us, so let us all chill.

Having a tiny border with Egypt is not what's gonna enable them to threaten us. So they smuggle some small arms in, and use them, and we slap them silly. Do we control Lebanon's borders? No. Is Hizballah getting lotsa weapons? You betcha. Is that good? Hell no. Is the sky falling on our heads as a result? Not last time I checked.

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Jesse
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Hannibal, Read "Trinity" by Leon Uris.

I could give you a list of history books, but if you tackle that one novel, you will understand why your calls for retribution against the Palestinian people can only strengthen their resolve.

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RickyB
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Leon Uris was a hack. I haven't read Trinity, but if his Israel-based books are any indication, he's nothing but a mouthpiece for shrill partisan propaganda.

The man could write, though.

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Hannibal
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exactly Ricky, nothing that the palestinians smuggle from gaza can threaten our security. you can bet that we have sattelite and aircraft surveillance of that little border strip, so everything they smuggle must be moved underground.
and i dont see any ground breaking equipment can be moved underground.

the purpose of the disengaigment was to get all jews away from gaza, not to give the palestinians all the things that israel negotiates on the negotiation table for nothing in return. they want free airspace and naval access... fine, start giving israel things in return

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The Drake
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I can't say I'm surprised, but it is too bad that this is the Arab reaction to the Gaza pullout.

Transparent Sham in Gaza

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RickyB
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Well, Drake, apart from the unpleasant tone - which is to be expected from an Arab publication talking about Israel, the substantive remarks are mostly accurate. The most glaring piece of b.s. in the article that I saw was the carping about Israel controling the Karni checkpoint. Um, yeah, that's an Israel-Palestine border checkpoint. Of course we're gonna control traffic into our territory.

But he's absolutely right that if we don't let them control Philadelphi (the Gaza Strip-Egypt border), as well as their own sea and air ports, then the occupation isn't really over at all - not from a sovereignty viewpoint, and definitely not from an economic one.

Arabs have every right to be suspicious of Sharon. I'M suspicious of Sharon. His top advisor said it outright - he views giving up Gaza as the way to solidify control over most of the West Bank. That is not the road to any kind of peace. If and when we leave for good, and relinquish control of their borders (the ones that aren't with us) and ports, then I'll expect even Arab commentatgors to admit that in Gaza, occupation has ended.

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Hannibal
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Thats Right Drake, what did you expect? that we did this pullout because we care about the palestinians? what do i care about those who try and kill me. we did the pullout to help ourselves. just like we should with the west bank.
i have no problem with the palestinians being stuck in their territories, as long as there is no single israeli in there too.


Negotiation this is the KEY, the roadmap is very clear, palestinians need to take some actions before they get the good stuff. they FIRST need to fight terrorism and then israel will open its borders.

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Hannibal
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The pullout has ended, and allready the arabs and palestinians waste no time

1) last night a palestinian terrorist stabed two israeli men in jerusalem one died and one moderatly wouded.

2) this morning Hizballah launched a 240mm rocket on a village in the northern border, luckily it only hit a hen cage.

3) palestinian terrorists launched two qassam rockets on israel, one landed inside gaza, the other in israel

4) israeli soldeirs engaged palestinian terorrist from islamic jihad, killing 5 terrorists.

we should now consider gaza as a foreign country who attack israel, and doin so, we need to retaliate much heavier now.

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RickyB
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Hannibal, you need to be accurate. First we went and killed their men in Tulkarm, then they fired a Qassam from Gaza.

The Hizballah attack was unprovoked. The Qassam was retaliation for something we started.

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Hannibal
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ok, so we'll give the palestinians slack this time.
what about leveling the southern regions of lebanon? we can do that, or even better, retaliate against the syrians.

[ August 25, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
Hamas or Islamic Jihad will almost certainly attack some during the pullout. Maybe even the extremist Fatah splinters.

I'd be shocked if the Palestinians don't attack after the pullout.

Wow ricky, how's that working out for ya? Still shocked? [Mad] [Embarrassed]
quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
The existance of Israel, much like the existance of the US, is an accomplished fact. There is no going back. Giving Israel back to the Palestinians would be just as impossible as giving the North America back to it's indigenous peoples.

Hey, I'm all for that, as long as you guys don't come to Europe, Africa, Asia, Australia or South-America, I'm fine with you giving back the land ... [Wink]

quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
If you make moves toward Genocide, not only will the US be forced to stop propping up your financialy insolvent nation

Jesse, keep dreaming. When did a little genocide ever stop the US? Maybe in your Clintonian United States, now something of the almost unimaginable past, did genocide mean something, but now the us reaction would be something between a cheer and "ah fock those palestinians anyway!" While of course expressing great sorrow and worry in public.

quote:
Originally posted by Koner:
Yes the Israeli terrorist was captured by ISRAELI police/military. Have you ever heard of a Palistinian terrorist being captured by Palistinian police? Do the Palistinian authorities even try to find Palistinian terrorists? Something tells me that the Israeli gunman would not be in such good shape had the Palistinians found him first.

That is the difference between civilized and uncivilized peoples. The civilized people at least try to police themselves.

Of course they capture terrorists, it's over on Al-Jazeera all the time. Now, just because you lack the sophistication of understanding Arabic (i don't either), doesn't mean you should refrain from saying that you don't know what Arabic media are reporting on this.
And what he was saying was that a captured suicide bomber will be and has been beaten to the point of torture by the Israeli police.

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by KidA:
I totally understand that Jews have a very special and troubled history, and that they continue to be a target worldwide.

Psaw!

Every nation/people in the world has a troubled history, with maybe the exception of .... nope, can't think of any. Even the Swiss were dirtpoor(er than the Irish) merely 150 years ago or even less. The Tibetans ... noooo, they STILL are VERY troubled.
The difference between these and the jews is that jews had a tendency to wander, and they did that throughout the western world, which happens to be topdog now, so now they are the western world pet project to cuddle (see: US aid to Israel, and: disprortional screen time of Gaza stripping in the West et. al.) and that only because its coincidentally geopolitical good for the west to support Israel.

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RickyB
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TS, if you don't understand why the Jews have a more troubled history than almost any national group in the world, then you're an ignorant focking moron, or perhaps just someone who would rather deny it for whatever purpose. I mean, the Swiss? It's not about being poor! Most nations were poor at some point. It's about persecution and hatred. When exactly were the Swiss subject to that?

"Jews had a tendency to wander"

Yeah, we also had a tendency to get kicked out of places. Hmmm, what a coincidence.

"Throughout the western world"

Eastern world too. Even a bit more, actually. But why confuse you with the facts?

"disprortional screen time of Gaza stripping in the West et. al"

Of course, can't show Israel doing something right for a change. Quick, where's that video about the poor Palestinians' plight? Lets show that instead.

[ August 26, 2005, 04:37 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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RickyB
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"Wow ricky, how's that working out for ya? Still shocked?"

Well, seeing how they did attack, I'm not shocked at all. While the Qassam can be put down to retaliation for the killings in Tulkarm, the stabbing in the old city cannot. So why don't you get a clue before making noise?

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Jesse
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"When exactly were the Swiss subject to that?"

Well, that's whole other thread...if your interested in Swiss history read up on it, but there were reasons they formed a federation and spent 400 years almost constantly at war. Think about their geographic position.

"Ok, we're ready to stop shooting right....NOW. Oh, crap, one of their guys fired another shot. Well, screw that peace nonsense."

How many times does this have to happen?

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RickyB
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Jesse, all of Europe spent tons of time in incessant war. Germany didn't become a single country until the 1860's because it was a basic tenant of European politics that it must never be allowed to happen. Germans and Swiss still had their homelands and were not subject to murderous hatred wherever they went just for being Swiss or German. Don't even try to compare the hatred and injustice and persecution.
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Jesse
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Sorry ricky, my bad.

Jews were subject to murderous hatred everywhere they went, from the Diaspora on...right?

Or, was there one major power...which rose in the late seventh century and conquored much of the old world...which DID tolerate Jews and in fact grant them considerable freedom to whorship as they chose.

Nah, couldn't have been. Probably just something I dreamed up on my own.

Just like that nation which declared it's independence from Britian in the later half of the 18th century, a nation which has never engaged in any official repression of Judiasm, and in which there has never been anything other than extremely small scale violence against Jews on roughly the same level all disseperate ethnic minorities suffer in any nation.

I probably dreamed that up too.

In any event, choosing not to be assimilated comes at a heavy cost. It sucks. People do terrible things to you when you insist on being different from them.

It's not entirely unlike 1.5 million Irish men women and children being starved to death in their own country, while being offered food if only they would renounce Papism.

Now, if you've had your fit and suffeciently assured yourself that whatever misdeeds Israel may be guilty of pale in comparision to the mistreatment Jews suffered for eons, and are therefore justified, can we get off the side issue and instead address the misdeed Hannibal is suggesting Israel commit in the future?

Some palestinian knifed a couple Israelis, so, the correct response would be to "flatten" a random civilian population?

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