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Author Topic: Tommorow it begins.....
RickyB
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Jesse, Islam was nicer to Jews than Christians, but totally not problem free. There were sprees of violence against Jews in all Muslim lands as well, especially as Islam declined. The Turks were never as enlightened as the Abbasids or the Spanish Muslims. However, it is true that antisemitism was not as virulent in Islamdome as it was in christiandome. Still, it was there. Jews were 2nd class citizens at best, and Andalusia and Maimonedes were an aberration that was never repeated.

As for the US - ever heard of a ship called the St. Louis? When push came to shove, even the glory that is America wasn't enough to save our bretheren.

As for Hannibal - see, Hannibal? I told you this is what happens. Jesse, I should think we've both been here long enough for you to know my opinions. I give Hannibal a hard time as it is, so I don't jump to denounce him everytime he foams at the mouth, but of course I utterly reject "flattening" civilian popualtions.

As for this:
"In any event, choosing not to be assimilated comes at a heavy cost. It sucks. People do terrible things to you when you insist on being different from them."

Exactly. Are you justifying the terrible things? I thought better of you.

And pray tell, why the sarcasm? I thought I addressed you respectfully. I must have dreamt that [Smile]

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Hannibal
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Is it my fault that Jesse cant tell the difference between the string of letters

HANNIBAL and RICKYB ? what can i say.

israel is a small country, but i can assure you that Hannibal and RickyB are two completly different persons

I THINK not RICKY, I alone (atleast in this site, Ricky knows many israelis think the same)
that if after israel pulls out from the territores, israel gets attacked by the palestinians - israel should respond as if palstine declared war on israel, just as if syria attacked israel.

there is a limit to how much slack we should give the palestinians. if when push comes to shove they "fail" (or dont want to) control their different militant groups, on the cost of israeli lives. israel should flatten palestinian city blocks.

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Jesse
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Justifying? no.

Stating as nearly innevitable.

This happens a lot, people think I'm justifying things like the LA riots or the European destruction of indigenous cultures around the globe, or palestinian suicide bombers, or their Israeli counterparts, when I say that these horrific things are the likely, almost inevitable, result of circumstances.

People living in abject poverty lash out at the nearest and most easy to hit target available, even if that target is not actually the cause of their suffering. Happens all the time.

People experiencing rational or irrational fear of loss of power do the same things.

Dominant cultures nearly ALWAYS persecute to one degree or another cultures they cannot assimilate, sometimes destroying them and sometimes "merely" repressing them.


I didn't say America was a safe haven for all persecuted Jews, and I didn't mean to imply it.

What I said was, Jews in America are and have been safe from any but the mildest forms of repression.


I'm sorry man, and I shouldn't lash out at you just because I'm seriously pissed off after visiting the museum of the holocaust thursday.

I'm just feeling really snarky about the whole issue right now.

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Hannibal
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what are you pissed of about?
what museum have you been to?
do you want to share your experience?

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Jesse
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1) Isreal hasn't pulled out of the territories, they've pulled out of one territory

2) can we get off the side issue and instead address the misdeed *Hannibal* is suggesting Israel commit in the future?

Some palestinian knifed a couple Israelis, so, the correct response would be to "flatten" a random civilian population?


See that? right there? I know who said what.

I just went off on Ricky because I'm really pissed off right now a museum here in LA that tries to portray the Holocaust as almost entirely a crime against Jews, which it most certainly was not. Other victims are treated like footnotes, when they account for half the death toll.

So, when Ricky started in with this "more suffering than anyone" bs....which is how I read it despite the fact that it was not what he said (I'm no more perfect than the rest of you knee-jerk reactionary SOBs, I'm one of you) I went off on him.

I coulda chickened out and edited the post, I appologized instead.

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Hannibal
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you can hardly blame the jewish holocaust museum to portray jews.

Jesse, you cant ignore that the Final Solution was mainly adressed against jews.
what about the Nuremberg Rules? also only against jews.

besides.. 6 million jews died in the holocaust, in a "factory line" process. there are less jews in israel right now, then the ones killed in the holocaust, can you comprehand that?

as for my militancy, well, from my 22 years of experience in the ME, fear is a very important factor, when the arabs feared us, we lived in peace, when they dont fear us, we are attacked every day.
thats the sad truth of the middle east, i didnt say we go and conquer the palestinians again, i am all for them having a country of their own, and i wish they live in peace inside that country.
i am merely stating what israel should do if it will be attacked from within palestine.

thats right, we ddid not pullout of all the territories, but gaza about to be under complete palestinian control, with no israeli soldier or civilian in site, if they do attack us from there, once the army leaves. we should retaliate severly

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RickyB
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I totally agree about that, Jesse. The poor gypsies get no respect. I'm being totally serious. I remember one time, Eli focking Wiesel opposed plans for a Gypsy (or was it Armenian)holocaust museum because it would diminish the Jewish holocaust. I've hated him for that ever since.

However, go read my relevant post again. I specifically said "Jews have a more troubled history than almost any national group in the world." Note the "almost".


Hannibal, you're being ignorant. Go learn about Gypsies under nazi Germany. Homosexuals too. Go read about the pink badge.

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Jesse
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Half the dead hannibal. Half.

There are,to me, two mutualy exclusive lessons one can take from this tragedy.

1) Jews aren't safe anywhere. They are a special catagory of victim, and uniquely threatened by racism and intolerance. They must do whatever is necessary to protect *themselves* from suffering this kind of treatment again.

1) Mans capacity for perpetrating horrific acts of violence and mass murder on grand scale against anyone defined as a dangerous "other" knows literally no limits. We must fight against this tendency to dehumanize entire ethinic, religious, national, or cultural groups wherever it arises.

"Never again" is only a NOBLE sentiment when it used to mean "Never again, anywhere, to anyone".

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Everard
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See, Jesse, the problem is, they are NOT mutually exclusive. Both statements are totally true.
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Jesse
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Nope, they sure are.

"They must do whatever is necessary to protect *themselves* from suffering this kind of treatment again."

And more than a few Israelis believe that what is necessary is.....

You know how to fill in the blank.

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Everard
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Just because some people think that the way to protect themselves is to dehumanize others does not mean that jews have not been, over the last 2000 years, a special class of victim, and that we deserve the right to protect ourselves as much as anyone else.

Edit: If you insist that, as you've worded them, those are the only two possible lessons to be learned, then you can interpret them to be mutually exclusive. However, I neither agree that those are the only two lessons (as worded), nor that the first one can only be interpreted to mean that violence is a justified means of protecting ourselves.

[ August 27, 2005, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Jesse
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Everard? What part of being being a "special victim class" has anything to do with a peoples right to defend themselves? The two are completely unrelated.

In addition, the first statement is patently false. There is nothing unique about what Jews have suffered except that such an extrordinary number of them were killed in such a short period.

All people have a right to self defense. However, murdering the civilian population from which your enemy springs is not self defense, it is the first step toward genocide.

I don't know if this is at all relevant, and I think I've said it before. My grandmother was a Hungarian Jew. I don't consider myself a Jew, by religion or by culture, and since it was my paternal grandmother, no Orthodox Jew would consider me a Jew.

The Nazi's would have, though. My grandmother had immediate relatives in the camps.

Why is it so important for so many people to believe that Jewish suffering through the ages outweighs that of any other people? I mean, it obviously doesn't, because the peoples who suffered the greatest tragedies are, well, gone.

The story of the Suffi's, although it primarily occured in the East rather than the West, is just as tragic. Ever have a prolonged conversation with a Ba'hai, or a Kurd?

How about a native american?

I'm not trying to be accusatory, I am seriously trying to understand why it is so important to so many peoples sense of, well, "Jewish self-identity" for want of a better term, to believe that Jewish Suffering is some how an order of magnatude greater than that of all other peoples.

<Edited to add>

I'm not asking why Jewish people are more familiar with their own history, just about everyone is interested in those "what is my family history" "where do I come from" questions. I get that.

[ August 27, 2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
The U.N. resolution creating the Israel? Would make for a convincing argument, except for the fact that it was virtually the last UN resolution anyone in the Israeli government apparently bothered to read.

Yah gotta admit that's funny! [Smile]

About Topic, let my buddy Spike do the talking:
quote:
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby-pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians! You won! Alright? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did and he's not going around saying "I came, I conquered, I feel really bad about it." The history of the world is not people making friends - you had better weapons and you massacred them. End of story.
Luckily, at the beginning of the 21st century, we're all more civilised now (as no doubt, the Jews thought at the beginning of the 20st century too ....)
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Hannibal
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Elliot, it could have been so funny if it were true

surprise surprise....

tune in to israel, there has been a suicide attack in Be'er Sheva's central bus station.

the suicide bomber arouse suspicion and when security guards came to him, he exploded on them.

many people could have died there today. poor security men, did their jobs, and got a suicide bomber exploded on their faces.

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Everard
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"Everard? What part of being being a "special victim class" has anything to do with a peoples right to defend themselves? The two are completely unrelated."

Nothing. Thats why the two lessons you propose could be learned from the holocaust are not mutually exclusive.

"In addition, the first statement is patently false. There is nothing unique about what Jews have suffered except that such an extrordinary number of them were killed in such a short period."

Well, no. There's quite a bit unique or nearly unique about Jewish suffering. We've been kicked out of our homeland TWICE (and a third time is being worked on as we speak), we've been kicked out of over a hundred other nations worldwide, we've been massacred in over a hundred different nations at various times, we didn't have political rights in our nations of residence until the mid 19th century (1800 years after we moved into most of these places), governments have systematically lied about what we do in almost every nation we've inhabited, we've been forced to live in ghettos in almost every nation we inhabited (do you know where the word ghetto comes from? It comes from the name for the jewish quarter of a city). Clinging to our idenity is not the cause of our suffering, its been the result of our suffering, in many places, as jews have been systematically isolated and forced to identify themselves as jews. We've been forced to engage in pre-determined theological debates, by catholics, protestants, and muslism, the result of said debates having dire consequences for our safety and homes, we've been told by almost every nation on earth that we are the ONLY people who do not deserve self-determination, we've had our holy places systematically desecrated in dozens of nations.

And what makes us absolutely unique? All of these have occured over a span of 2000 years. Other groups can claim to have one, or two, or even several of these atrocities perpetrated against them. But no other group has been so systematically perseccuted by so many nations over such a long period of time. We are allowed to continue survival... BARELY... which just means we get to suffer another round of persecution a generation later... but usually just around the corner, rather then later.

"All people have a right to self defense. However, murdering the civilian population from which your enemy springs is not self defense, it is the first step toward genocide."

I agree, I wish the palestinians would stop doing it to us since we so long ago stopped doing it to them on anything like either an intentional or systematic basis.

"Why is it so important for so many people to believe that Jewish suffering through the ages outweighs that of any other people? I mean, it obviously doesn't, because the peoples who suffered the greatest tragedies are, well, gone."

Which is why ours outweighs theirs, in some respects. More of us have been persecuted, by a factor of a lot, then those groups that are gone, because those tragedies usually happened relatively quickly. Numerically speaking, there's no other group that can compete with jewish suffering, because more jews have lived during a time when they are persecuted then any other group. And its happened in more nations then any other group has even TRIED to live in.

I don't mean all of this to suggest that the suffering of other groups is insigificant, or that we have a right to inflicit suffering on other groups. We do not.

What it does mean is that, if suffering earns you the right to have a safe haven, we've earned our safe haven, and we'd appreciate it if people could stop trying to take it away from us, since the overwhelming evidence suggests that if we lose our safe haven, we're likely to go through another massive round of genocide at the hands of the people currently doing their best to take our safe haven away from us. We'd also kindly appreciate it if you'd stop telling us we can't use limited, targetted violence against people who have killed a huge proportion of our population, who have done so with an eye to doing the same thing that non-jews have tried to do to jews over the century... "Kill as many as we can, who cares if its women, children, and the elderly. They are JEWS."

We're defending ourselves against a CURRENT attempt at genocide, and I think we're doing it with better restraint then any other national group would even TRY to do. The US's response to a handful of terrorist strikes was to wage TWO wars, killing tens of thousands of civilians. Israel's response? "Maybe if we pull out of this territory in exchange for NOTHING, fewer of our people will get killed."

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RickyB
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Thanks for saving me the effort, Ev. Very well said.

Jesse, I totally understand your anger at the marginalization of other holocaust victims, as I've related re: Eli Wiesel.

However, it would be sad if that caused you to swing too far the other way and minimize Jewish suffering throughout history. Neither I nor Ev particularly want to be having this pissing match about who suffered more, but if you say "y'all didn't suffer more than a bunch of others", then we feel compelled to set the record straight. Call it a national complex, if you will, or a group tick, but that's the way it is.

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Jesse
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Everard, no other group has lived in so many nations.

Kicked out twice? If you're talking about the Babylonian captivity, they didn't actually remove the entire Jewish population from Israel, they took mostly the educated classes and craftsman as hostages, at most estimates about 10% of the population.

A significant number of Jews did assimilate in Spain, rather than be driven out. I'm not saying, in any way shape or form, that it's right to force a people to assimilate or be destroyed, I'm saying it was possible for Jews to assimilate under certain circumstances at certain times.

So, wandering around being persecuted in other peoples countries is somehow a greater suffering than being oppressed, murdered, exterminated, or used as slaves in what was once your own country? I gotta say, I really don't see why or how. Not that's it's any LESS horrific either.

So, we disagree about the "special nature" of anti-jewish persecution. So be it. I'm no denier of the Holocaust, I know about incidents ranging from the English sea captian who left 900 jewish men women and children to drown on a sand bar as the tide rose back in the 14th century to the repeated pogroms of eastern europe to the conditions of the shtetle and the ghetto.

I still don't see a degree of suffering so substantially different from what others have endured to make it a basis for self-identity, or a sense of uniqueness.

Have I ever said it's wrong to use limited violence specifically and carefully targeted against those individuals who have attacked you? I've said it's wrong to drive people from their homes, and even more wrong to do so without offering them fair financial compensation. I've said it's wrong to act as an appologist for a patent act of ethnic cleansing instead of owning up to it and trying to make ammends. I've said it's wrong to deny people the right to return to their homes after they flee a combat zone, and then pat yourself on the back and reasure yourself with the notion that you would have let them keep their land if only they had stayed there and died on it.

Did you really say that Palestinians have killed a huge proportion of your population? That is, at best, a bad joke. A hell of a lot more people are killed on Israeli highways.

There is no attempt at genocide against the Israeli people, there is an ongoing attempt at a retributive act of ethnic cleansing. The two aren't the same, although neither is exceptable.

There is CURRENTLY no Israeli attempt to commit genocide against the Palestinian population. None. At all. Period. I never said there was.

However, the policies advocated by some Israelis (large scale retaliation against civilians) can only lead to genocide.

Hannibals message to Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc. is, "Murder two Israelis, we'll murder a bunch of your civilians, and give you all the recruits and popular support you need."

Personally, I think many Jews have bought into the notion that they ARE fundementally different from the rest of humanity, that they behave differently in response to the same external stimuli.

It's simply not true. Start retaliating against the Palestinian civilian population and the fate of those residing in the Gaza Strip will be no different than the fate of those trapped in the Warsaw Ghetto. They will go down fighting to the last man, woman, or child.

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Everard
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"So, wandering around being persecuted in other peoples countries is somehow a greater suffering than being oppressed, murdered, exterminated, or used as slaves in what was once your own country?"

Not necessarily, but when BOTH of these happen to the same people, then something different is going on with that nation.

"Did you really say that Palestinians have killed a huge proportion of your population? That is, at best, a bad joke"

No its not a bad joke. If you think its a bad joke, you're not paying any attention. You know 9/11? Largest single act of violence on american soil ever? Israel suffers 2-3 terrorist attacks that kill a larger percent of its population then 9/11 killed of ours... EVERY YEAR.I consider that to be a huge proportion of the population.

"There is no attempt at genocide against the Israeli people, there is an ongoing attempt at a retributive act of ethnic cleansing. The two aren't the same, although neither is exceptable."

You're misleading yourself if you think that the arab nations and the palestinians wouldn't be happier killing tons of jewish israelis then driving them out of israel. There's quite a lot of historical evidence from the last 100 years in support of that.

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
We've been kicked out of our homeland TWICE (and a third time is being worked on as we speak)
Just to pick a nit, but both of those occasions were self inflicted. You can't really call it persecution if you bring your doom upon yourself.
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Everard
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Umm, I disagree that they were self-inflicted. The roman emporer who ordered that a statue of himself be placed inside the holy of holies was a friggin idiot, and caused the wars that followed ending with the diaspora. When you desecrate a holy site and then send soldiers to enforce that desecration, its not the fault of the people who get pissed about the desecration.
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RickyB
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Ev, you're exaggerating a bit. Let's see... 3,000/300 million (I'm rounding numbers here) = 1/100,000

Israel's population is about 7 million, so 1/100,000 of that would be 70. We don't suffer 2-3 attacks that kill that many every year. Not even one. In fact, I can't remember a single such attack. The most I can remember was at the Park hotel in Netanya, on passover night 2002. 30 died.

It is true that more than 1/100,000 of our population die of terror attacks most years, especially since 2000.

I do agree totally that what groups like hamas strive for is precisely genocide.

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Redskullvw
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SG/Jesse

you both need to do a bit more research on Jewish history. for starters enter 66 A.D. and 115 A.D. into a good search engine.

enjoy.

Oh, and as to the babylonian hostage gambit of Cyrus, Paul is more correct than you, but the lowball estimate of only 10% is woefully short.

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
SG/Jesse

you both need to do a bit more research on Jewish history. for starters enter 66 A.D. and 115 A.D. into a good search engine.

Or perhaps you should take your own advice, and perhaps adopt a more fittingly humble tone in the meantime?

[ August 29, 2005, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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RickyB
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SG, it all depends on what you call self inflicted. By that logic, if we decimate the Palestinians and exile much of the remaining population, then "they brought it on themselves". After all, we conquered them and they dare revolt!

Anyhow, what I do agree with you is that when I think of Jewish suffering, I don't usually count what the Romans did to us. That was par for the course and the circumstances at the time. While we were exiled punitively on a much more massive scale (especially after the Bar Cochba revolt), that's just because we were more of a threat than anyone else.

Actually, if any group of people has claim to unique suffering under the Romans, it's the Germanic peoples, who were de-humanized and slaughtered for kicks by the Roman legions.

It was our suffering during the diaspora that was rather unique.

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Redskullvw
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SG,

Both of you had attacked the other side's argument with less than a clear understanding of the facts backing your arguments. It is not your opposition which is arguing in ignorance for what they have presented is factually true. What you have presented is only conditionally true because you seem unaware of the complete history which would place your facts in a lesser light.

That being so, maybe you should submit the above dates as I suggested, and I am certain your own independent research will confirm that you have been arguing from a position which simply is not factual.

I am often not right. However when someone gently offers a suggestion to do a bit more fact checking, I don't usually retailiate and offer an insult.

Remeber it is not me you have been arguing with, and I noticed glaring errors of historical fact upon which you and jesse were each basing arguments.

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Redskullvw
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Ricky

check email..

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Serotonin'sGone
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Redskull, you need to do a bit more research on english. For starters try typing gentle and condescending into a good dictionary.

enjoy.

As for your remarks, you're wrong. I'll write a more detailed post later as time allows, but I'm pretty surprised you would attempt to argue your position (let alone with such assuredness).

Does anyone argue that the babylonian destruction of jerusalem was not self-inflicted?

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Everard
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"Does anyone argue that the babylonian destruction of jerusalem was not self-inflicted?"

Lets start with the roman one, since you said both, and thats already been challenged by both me and ricky.

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RickyB
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Well, you need to separate the initial conquest and the destruction. The conquest was not provoked. The subsequent destruction was provoked by a stupid act of political assassination.

In any case, like I said, it depends what you mean by "self inflicted". If you go by the mores of the time, then yes, at least somewhat. Not by modern understanding in any case.

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ljohnson
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Redskull,
Lurker post: I entered 66 & 115 ad into Google, and found a couple of vague wikipedia articles. Jewish revolts, one I knew, one I didn't. What is your point? The Jews deserved to die because of the Roman behavior?

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Jesse
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Well, depends on perspective. The Roman response was pretty predictable, but I can't fault a people for rebelling against onorous tyranny.

They knew the facts, they were aware of the cost of declaring war with Rome and losing. They chose to fight knowing the odds and sufered the consequences. Somehow, still doesn't equal "self inflicted" to my mind.

Redskull, don't assume ignorance on someone elses part just because they don't delve into details you consider pertinent.

It's entirely possible that I posses the same information as you, but find that information to be less important, and not really all that relevant to the topic at hand.

If you think 10% is lowball, well, blame the History channel. Not all of their information is Ironclad at all times. In any event, we can agree it sure wasn't all or even a majority of the population.

I wouldn't call the Roman atrocities against the people of Israel relevant to this particular discusion, because the reaction of these imperial powers would have been roughly the same against any other group which so steadfastly refused to be assimilated or utterly dominated.

[ August 29, 2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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Redskullvw
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The point...

1 babylonian conquest
2 roman conquests

While babylonian one may be self inflicted, the two roman revolts most definately were not self inflicted.

Thus my comment to SG. He is only partialy right concerning the babylonian conquest and who was taken where, he has missed the fact that the Jews conducted 2 more actions against an outside military force before they ultimately were dispersed. So my point is that his supposition that there were only 2 conquests at the hands of outside agents, there were in fact 3. Also his claim that the cause for conquest was the fault of jewish action, which is debatable for all three historical events.

While i had no intention of debating the issue of self inflicted calamity in regard to the jews, I had to point out that the facts of historical conflict places Jews against foes that defeated them on three seperate occassions that also resulted in the Jews being subjugated to traditional ancient programs of how to treat a fallen enemy. It is impossible for SG to construct a valid argument if he presupposses only two historical instances of Jews being subjugated militarilly, when there were in fact, three. It also weakens his argument to maintain the Jewish causality for the subjugation when his representation of the Babylonian resettlement conflicts with multiple sources describing who was taken from the kingdom, and how many went.

As to the your hurt feelings, you have no reason to be. I simply pointed out a flaw in your argument whithout explaining the entire fault. I figured your realization as to your historical error would become self evident by entering the dates, thereby hopefully resulting in a refinement of your argument to include the relevent historical facts that you omitted or were unaware of.


Ljohnson

My point was pointing out a factual error as noted above, and to point out that some individuals are making an argument for the Jews deserving what they have gotten at the hands of those who conqured them based on an incomplete historical record of relavent events. Having acknowledged the Babylonian conquest and only one Roman conquest has provided a rather incomplete picture of jewish actions that may or may not have lead to their being conqured, making any conclusion of jewish culpability suspect.

In short I have no conclusion either way as to whether they deserved what happened or didn't. But If I am to be convinced by the argument that they did deserve what happened to them, then that argument's historical basis needs to be factually correct. So far, as presented on this thread, the argument that Jews deserved it has factual errors concerning historical events easily checked. If I am to believe their argument, I shouldn't be able to so quickly dismiss as inconmplete the historical basis for their argument.

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RickyB
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History channel sucks. Most of their programs (especially on ancient history) are applaingly shoddy on facts. The "experts" they bring are like fifth rate. I'm sure you've come across this character, on Jewish-related programs - Walter something, guy with a beard, referred to as an "author". Who the @#$% is that guy? In what alternate universe is he a damn authority?

He's not the only example. I used to run the history channel's forum here. We used to have various academic experts over for Q&A - usually centered around a hostory channel special or theme-weekend. I remember when they had the Islam weekend, I had made arrangements with one of the leading experts in Israel, and had sent her tapes of the shows beforehand so she'd know the material she'd be asked about.

Never mind her opinion of the shows (which was not good, to be charitable), she was astounded at the low level of the "experts". She had only even heard of one out what must have been 10 or 15 people interviewed throughout the shows.

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Redskullvw
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jesse


I find the history channel better than cartoons and network television, but an almost useless source for hard history. I take exception to the historical inaccuracies of the channel so frequently that my wife will not allow me to watch it with her in the same room. She finds that my screaming at the the TV how wrong a show is about fact is less than enetertaining. Plus, having investigated my claims against multiple shows on the History channel, and finding that I am always right about the error, my wife feels that being consistently right conflicts with her insistence that only she is always right and that a person as dumb as me is lucky to have someone as smart as her.

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OpsanusTau
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quote:
a person as dumb as me is lucky to have someone as smart as her.
I hope that you are duly grateful to her for her sacrifice.

[Wink]

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RickyB
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All this talk about the Babylonian and Roman wars is a huge side track, btw. Neither is relevant to why Jewish suffering is rare, if not unique.

Again: Roman treatment of the Germanic peoples was worse than their treatment of Jews. Every single nation the Babylonians ever hurt doesn't even exist anymore. That's not the point.

The point is that as recently as 1933 we could not just go about our business, having a different religion and a few customs but otherwise assimilating with zeal in the surrounding popualtion, and expect to be left alive. THAT'S the uniqueness that makes the State of Israel, for all the suffering and dislocation it created, an absolute necessity.

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
Thus my comment to SG. He is only partialy right concerning the babylonian conquest and who was taken where, he has missed the fact that the Jews conducted 2 more actions against an outside military force before they ultimately were dispersed. So my point is that his supposition that there were only 2 conquests at the hands of outside agents, there were in fact 3. Also his claim that the cause for conquest was the fault of jewish action, which is debatable for all three historical events.

While i had no intention of debating the issue of self inflicted calamity in regard to the jews, I had to point out that the facts of historical conflict places Jews against foes that defeated them on three seperate occassions that also resulted in the Jews being subjugated to traditional ancient programs of how to treat a fallen enemy. It is impossible for SG to construct a valid argument if he presupposses only two historical instances of Jews being subjugated militarilly, when there were in fact, three. It also weakens his argument to maintain the Jewish causality for the subjugation when his representation of the Babylonian resettlement conflicts with multiple sources describing who was taken from the kingdom, and how many went.

As to the your hurt feelings, you have no reason to be. I simply pointed out a flaw in your argument whithout explaining the entire fault. I figured your realization as to your historical error would become self evident by entering the dates, thereby hopefully resulting in a refinement of your argument to include the relevent historical facts that you omitted or were unaware of.

who are you quoting? Who are you arguing with? When did I say any of that? Honestly, where are you coming from?

to make it clear: I never supposed how many were taken by the babylonians. I never supposed only two. The only thing I supposed was that the conflict was self inflicted. That's it. I didn't even say who, though I later implied that at least one was the babylonians (though I would also include achaemenid rule).

[ August 29, 2005, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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OpsanusTau
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Suddenly thought of the similar (sort of) situation of the Roma (gypsies) - who have also been (& largely continue to be, I think) persecuted, etc. Not for as long as the Jews, but it seems like a dimly analogous situation.

I don't think I have an actual point about that, though.

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Redskullvw
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Sg

I was observing your argument with ricky and paul, I didnt even argue with you, I simply noted that if your argument was to have equal merit compared with their argument in regard to Jewish culpability, maybe you should recognize the three historical conquest that happened instead of just two. Otherwise your argument seems suspect.

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Redskullvw
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Sg

The again Jesse was also arguning the same general position so its not all attributable to you arguing the entire concept. I did after all address both of you equally since it was the arguments of both of you that made me suspect the basis of your conclusions. In the old days being a devil's advocate here was appreciated, I see that that time has passed.

No offense intended towards you or any one else.

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