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Author Topic: Tommorow it begins.....
javelin
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I appreciate a good devil's advocate, Redskullvw.
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Jesse
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OT, Read up on the Suffis, not all that different from the post-diaspora jewish experience.

The Roma are, well, damn near gone now.

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Redskullvw
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also your edit has made clear your argument
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Redskullvw
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Jesse

Do you have any good sources on the Suffis in Palestine and Jerusalem prior to the 1936 census?

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
In the old days being a devil's advocate here was appreciated, I see that that time has passed.

It had nothing to do with playing devil's advocate. You insulted my knowledge (and by implication of course, intelligence). That has always been frowned upon here. I mean honestly, did you expect to get away with a comment like that? If you want to make a point, make it, I welcome debate from any direction. i don't welcome heavy handed recommendations to get a clue.

Anyway, I do apologize for my first retort, I almost held off the last bit, but edited it in afterwards. Restraint can be a bitch....

[ August 29, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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OpsanusTau
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I think there are only slightly fewer of the Roma than of the Jews (but I don't really know what I'm talking about here).

What about the Sufis? I didn't know that there was a specific defined cultural group of Sufis.

(thinking about Kurds, now, too - to add to the list of persecuted peoples - but I reiterate that I do not know so much about that, and also do not really have a point)

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OpsanusTau
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Redskull:
quote:
you both need to do a bit more research on Jewish history. for starters enter 66 A.D. and 115 A.D. into a good search engine.
SG:
quote:
You insulted my knowledge (and by implication of course, intelligence).

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Serotonin'sGone
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why leave out the enjoy?
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Redskullvw
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Sg

I did not insult your knowledge or intelligence. I made a simple comment that your argument re self infliction /babylonian conquest doesn't make much sense if you add in the Roman conquests of 66 AD and 115 AD. Your argument was specificly untenable, and in light of historical facts, which you still haven't acepted that show specific causality of the aggressions against jews and the results of the aggression makes absolutely no sense.

It has always been permisable on Ornery to point out the factual or logical faults of anyone's argument even if you happen not to be involved in the acctual debate of the topic. My intent was not to debate. My intent was to point out a pretty signifigant flaw in your argument and possibly send you in the right direction which might allow you to better support your argument. You mistook my hint as some sort of insult. I think others picked up on what I was driving at and argued it well. To be honest, my argument is different from the two sides presented over the last couple of pages and those who have seen it probably could assure you that I have no debate with you or your concepts of causality.

Having already developed a paper about this topic over the last few weeks independently of Ornery, I was simply interested in this thread about causality theories and the relationships between ethnic rights to the former Palestine Mandate and how people were arguing the rights of Jews and Palestinians. If you thought I was debating you, you assumed incorrectly. If you assumed I was attempting to insult you, you mistook my intent. And as far as heavy handed commendations leading to your getting a clue, I'd advise you to go back, look at the posts and see if I was the one instructing you as to the use of english and deameaning definitions to be applied to my person.

It would seem your feeling insulted, and your inabillity to investigate a simple suggestion by me concerning historical fact via search engine to strengthen your argument might indicate that you may in fact, need heavy handed commendations to get a clue. When I decide to get heavy handed and deconstruct an argument of yours you wont need a telegrap to let you know that is exactly what I have done.

You inserted the babylonian nitpick... I followed it with a nitpick of my own. You feel insulted, thats fine. But I didn't insult you. I did however nitpick your nitpick.

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RickyB
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Ops, the Roma (whom I'm probably being terribly un-pc by calling gypsies) are a very analogoius situation to diaspora Jews. Don't feel you're making light of the Jews by saying it, and the hell with Eli Wiesel [Smile]
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Jesse
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Ottoman Jerusalem: The Living City 1517-1917
eds Sylvia Auld and Robert Hillenbrand

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Redskullvw
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SG

The above was in response to your original post which included the "heavy handed commendations" line.

I reitterate I had no intention of insulting anyone. And I think OT's post above reflects my retort to the arguments I found when I read the thread. Others did what I posted and the topic's argument moved on.

Now lets move on together and drop this particular nitpick.

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Redskullvw
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Jesse

Availible digital? Or am I going to the university to find this?

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Redskullvw
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Btw have consulted the oxford Histories concerning 1917-1947, but is there any english language work that deals specificaly with the 1917 partitioing of the Ottoman lands until the 1936 census? I can only find sources that are either strictly numbers of people, or tangentaly associated stories without much official comments of fact.
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Jesse
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University Redskull, sorry.

It's unbelievably comprehensive, two volumes, about 1,200 pages or so, and only *maybe* a hundred pages or so deals with Sufis.

What's sad is, it's still the best source I could find.

I thought about buying it but it wasn't cheap or easy to find. I had to read it as a reference book.

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Redskullvw
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Cool lucky i have a university down the street. i had heard of, and possibly used it before. Was hoping someone had the 300 page thesis about them hanging around.
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Jesse
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I haven't seen it, if you get hold of it let me know.
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Redskullvw
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Inter library loan... works wonders
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RickyB
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Jesse, give me a few extra search words to work with. A search for "sufi" floods me, of course, with links about the Muslim spiritual movement. Somehow that doesn't sound like what you mean.
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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
The U.N. resolution creating the Israel? Would make for a convincing argument, except for the fact that it was virtually the last UN resolution anyone in the Israeli government apparently bothered to read.

quote:
Originally posted by TS Elliot:Yah gotta admit that's funny! [Smile]
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
Elliot, it could have been so funny if it were true surprise surprise....

Oh, I'm sure the Israelis read, agreed and signed a bunch of UN resolutions on totally unrelated subjects, like the saving of the three legged Ahorn-Sheep of MidNorthern Upper Canada, but that's not what Jesse meant and you know it. It's actually not only quite a nitpicking to imply that you did too read, agreed and signed other UN resolutions, but also very cynical.

[ August 30, 2005, 09:43 PM: Message edited by: TS Elliot ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:

In addition, the first statement is patently false. There is nothing unique about what Jews have suffered except that such an extrordinary number of them were killed in such a short period.

I agree that there is nothing unique about the jews in this respect.


quote:
Originally posted by Everard, I suppose his view on the typical antisemite": "Kill as many as we can, who cares if its women, children, and the elderly. They are JEWS."
This is very melodramatic in light of your winning position geopolitically speaking of the last 50-60 years. Also on a global socio-economic scale, jews are far from the botton of the barrel. I bet if all the wealth of jews around the world was added up, they would be in the top ten of nations. To my knowledge, there's no country in the world were jews are on the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder.


quote:
Israel's response? "Maybe if we pull out of this territory in exchange for NOTHING, fewer of our people will get killed."
This is bullcrap and you know it. It's not for nothing, it's a tactical retreat out of a untenable and financially bankrupt position (how did the SovUn loose the Cold War? Yes, in large part economically) You just count yourself lucky that Hitler didn't do tactical retreats, otherwise ... Hell, I count myself lucky that he didn't do that, not for the fact that I would be speaking German now, I wouldn't have existed, since there's a good chance that Hitler would have wanted create Lebensraum in Africa ... I digress.
Sharon resolved to GazaStripping because of good will, even in Europe, because it was costly, and because it will give him a bargaining point to keep the West Bank and east Jerusalem. There are no unselfish acts in international relations, with maybe the exception of very late late late decision by Clinton to put his foot down in Kosovo, Bosnia etc. But of course my buddy Wpakkkt will cry bloody murder about this .... [Smile]

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Jesse
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In all fairness, about 65 years ago someone DID kinda kill off a huge percentage of the worlds poorest Jews.

In addition, when you're limited to small number of profesional stations and craftsmen trades, well, you're probably going to learn to excel at them.

Still, think about it.....the argument that "Jews caused WWI" (I know you didn't make it just trying to illustrate a point) sure, 30-40 Jewish bankers and speculators made huge profits on that war...but so did literally thousands of bankers and speculators of other ethnic backgrounds.

Jews are, if anything, slightly over represented among the proffesional classes and significantly under represented among the Idle Rich, at least here in the states.

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TS Elliot
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quote:
"Palestinians have killed a huge proportion of your population? That is, at best, a bad joke"

[QUOTE]No its not a bad joke.

I agree that it's no joke, I think it's bloody shame, a big fat chutzpah, to say such things, especially since there are about FOUR times more Palestinians killed than there are Israeli, and it has shown no age-ism, since the numbers is the same for kids.

To make the claims of unique suffering by jews is a false and shameless exploitation of the victim-role. It merely shows that jews have a better access to world media (I suppose they don't own all those media and film companies for nothing) and a better PR machine, despite what they claim about the Palestinians. Should we give the Israelis credit for admitting that the casualty number of the Palestinians is 4 times that of them? No, that's what civilized democratic states are supposed to do. No extra credits.

Aside from the fact that I don't see how spreading yourself makes you suffer more, I mostly don't really see how jews can top the number of 30 million indigenous Americans killed and slaughtered, even if you count the last 2000 years. I don't think there were even 24 million (30-6) jews on the planet in the 2000 years before the 1900s? Before the 1900s total earth population: around 800 million. How many of those were jews?

Show me the money.

The mere fact that jews, are globally speaking one of the most powerful groups, suggests that the persecution couldn't have been that bad. The Roma and Sinti (gypsies) are still recovering from WW2, the Negroes are still on the bottom rung, and the indigenous Americans are for all practical purposes, not there anymore.

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Everard
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"I agree that it's no joke, I think it's bloody shame, a big fat chutzpah, to say such things, especially since there are about FOUR times more Palestinians killed than there are Israeli"

This is a stupid argument. If you look at WHY more palestinians have died then israeli's, you'll see why.

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Funean
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Come on, TS.

I question your "Jews to others" ratios, but it's immaterial. What has been done to the Jews historically cannot really be overstated; if other populations have been treated as badly or worse and it's less known, that under-reporting doesn't de facto make the Holocaust and all the pograms and persecution over-reported.

Also, I find your sideline pandering to such stereotypes as "Jews own the media!" as support for your statements rather repulsive and unworthy.

I'm not sure, either, what you mean by "the indigenous Americans are for all practical purposes [are] not there anymore." Whose practical purposes? And they're plenty "there"--some of them even post here on Ornery.

Surely you can argue a pro-Palestinian position, and certainly an anti-Israeli-governmental policy one, without resorting to slurs and straw men.

The point, here, is whether we are seeing another example of "screw whoever there's the least of and who can be easily identified as Other." Casting varies, but that show's been running a long, long time.

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Everard
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Thank you Funean.
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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Funean:
if other populations have been treated as badly or worse and it's less known, that under-reporting doesn't de facto make the Holocaust and all the pograms and persecution over-reported.

I don't get that. That is exactly what it does, it makes it overreported. It doesn't make the suffering worse or 'better'. And yes, this pissing contest about who suffers more is a bit sickening. I surely agree to that.

quote:
Also, I find your sideline pandering to such stereotypes as "Jews own the media!" as support for your statements rather repulsive and unworthy.
Why? I don't deny them their right to express a preference to favorable reporting about jews and jewish issues, that is a fact of life. If they are overrepresented in ownership and control of merican and/or western media (as i think they are), this is what will happen. Not that I am happy about it. If it were one-eyes lesbian midget from mongolia, then they would be more favourably reported. I didn't say that jews own the media, I wanted to imply that they are overrepresented. Looking at Woody Allen/Harvey Weinberger that might be a good thing, but looking baruch goldstein/Sharon, might be not.

quote:

I'm not sure, either, what you mean by "the indigenous Americans are for all practical purposes [are] not there anymore." Whose practical purposes? And they're plenty "there"--some of them even post here on Ornery.

I meant that they didn't handle attempted (and partly succesfful) genocide as well as jews, in light of their totally different positions in society.
And they are 'not there', (with respect to Canadian), in the sense that I don't know of any significant role that they play in present northern-merican society, let alone in south america. But in Bolivia at least they are significant part of the population.) The last and only fully Indian actor I can remember in any major movie is the guy in "One Cuckoo flew over the rest", the others are all mixed with whites. Enlighten me if it's not the case. And I watch a lot of movies (10.203 last count)
They aren't there, in the sense that there is not a clear cultural heritage that indigenous people can fall back on, sure, there is some, but not to the extent that jews, europeans, or even Aframs can, at least they have a whole continent to call their own.

quote:
Surely you can argue a pro-Palestinian position, and certainly an anti-Israeli-governmental policy one, without resorting to slurs and straw men.
I think what you call straw men are valid points, since, history is written by the victors.

quote:
The point, here, is whether we are seeing another example of "screw whoever there's the least of and who can be easily identified as Other." Casting varies, but that show's been running a long, long time.
nice. the point is who has the (overly melo-)dramatic lead and who are the extras ...
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OpsanusTau
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<ahem>

Your friendly neighborhood librarian: searching the worldwide database of library holdings, for YOU!

Here are some of the best-looking things about Sufism & history thereof that I found in a short search:

A culture of Sufism : Naqshbandīs in the Ottoman world, 1450-1700 / Dina Le Gall
ISBN 0791462455
(SUNY series in medieval Middle East history)

Sufi orders in Ottoman and post-Ottoman Egypt and the Middle East : collected studies / Frederick De Jong.
ISBN 9754281785

An introduction to the history of Ṣūfism ; the Sir Abdullah Suhrawardy lectures for 1942, by Arthur J. Arberry
ISBN 0863112579 ? (there's a 1992 edition)

A history of Sufism in India / by Saiyid Athar Abbas Rizvi.
ISBN 8121500389

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
I did not insult your knowledge or intelligence. I made a simple comment that your argument re self infliction /babylonian conquest doesn't make much sense if you add in the Roman conquests of 66 AD and 115 AD. Your argument was specificly untenable, and in light of historical facts, which you still haven't acepted that show specific causality of the aggressions against jews and the results of the aggression makes absolutely no sense.

1) I never made that argument. I never mentioned babylon. Do you have anything else you would like for me to have said?
2) any twit that knows the first thing about jewish history knows what happened in 66 and 115. that you would presuppose that I don't is an insult--it's like telling a catholic priest to google jesus christ or a mormon joseph smith.
3) Why do you fail to mention 130-136? That is the last jewish rising, and the one with the most legitimate beef. If you're going to interject random useless comments, why not make them comprehensive?

quote:
It has always been permisable on Ornery to point out the factual or logical faults of anyone's argument even if you happen not to be involved in the acctual debate of the topic. My intent was not to debate. My intent was to point out a pretty signifigant flaw in your argument and possibly send you in the right direction which might allow you to better support your argument. You mistook my hint as some sort of insult. I think others picked up on what I was driving at and argued it well. To be honest, my argument is different from the two sides presented over the last couple of pages and those who have seen it probably could assure you that I have no debate with you or your concepts of causality.

If you wish to point out a flaw in my argument, do me the courtesy of waiting until I make an argument to do so.

quote:
If you assumed I was attempting to insult you, you mistook my intent. And as far as heavy handed commendations leading to your getting a clue, I'd advise you to go back, look at the posts and see if I was the one instructing you as to the use of english and deameaning definitions to be applied to my person.

You can't really complain when your own words are used against you. I copied your exact format and applied it to you. Clearly you feel insulted as a result. Odd, isn't it? Doesn't it come off as arrogant? Why, maybe you appeared arrogant when you used it too? Surely this has at least occurred to you, or is your own sense of self-importance so great that you cannot imagine being taken for a know it all?

I was going to hold off on the above, but given that TS eliot is posting on this thread I consider it effectively dead.

As for the original argument that I might just finally make:

quote:
Umm, I disagree that they were self-inflicted. The roman emporer who ordered that a statue of himself be placed inside the holy of holies was a friggin idiot, and caused the wars that followed ending with the diaspora. When you desecrate a holy site and then send soldiers to enforce that desecration, its not the fault of the people who get pissed about the desecration.
Caligula was indeed an idiot, and did order that a his statue be built in the temple. However, the order was never carried out, and he was fortuitously assassinated (for the good of rome and pretty much everyone else).

That was a good 25 years before the revolt in 66 ad, and just another dot in a long line of minor rebellions in judea. I'll make the 66 ad event the major focus of this post, as it's about the only rebellion for which a complete history was made (Josephus's The Jewish War. It's biased toward rome obviously, as he wrote it under the auspices of Titus/Vespasian, but it's pretty much all we have to go on. And he did try to make the jewish cause slightly sympathetic, particularly when he was in charge of it).

The revolt in 66 was largely caused by over taxation by the romans. Most sources indicate that the revolt was as much an internal class revolt as anything else -- but with several very poorly made decisions. Admittedly Florus (the roman governor) was a bastard--he extorted the people and supported dissent in order to justify stealing from the temple. And the last draw was the desecration of a synagogue in Caesaria by hellenists (they built a factory blocking the entrance).

That said, had the jews created an organized rebellion, ousted Florus, and then sent emissaries to rome to plead for a new governor they could easily have gotten away with it. The jewish state was a regular gold mine to rome -- one which rome had no desire to part with. combine that with the growing dissent in Gaul and you have a Rome which really doesn't care to fight a long and painful war in the middle east.

Instead, the jews were completely divided and rebellion proved more of a civil war than anything else. Even the high priest was killed in the mayhem, along with the leader of the Sicarii. Numerous factions vied for power throughout the land and a number of jews were slaughtered by fellow jews. Probably most damaging to the jewish cause was the slaughter of roman soldiers after they surrendered (on guarantee of safe conduct). Rome simply isn't going to let something like that go...

Even so, Agrippa continued unsuccessfully to plead for peace with Rome -- and Rome still offered it. That the jews, divided though they may have been, continued to rebel at this point was just insane. And so they were slaughtered all the way to jerusalem -- where for the most part the killing was jew vs jew. Even up until the very final siege of jerusalem the jewish factions were butchering each other within the city and throughout the countryside. What else can such a civil war be but self inflicted -- with the added bonus of the winner getting annihilated by the romans.

Now the rebellion in 132 ad was admittedly a little more reasonable.
quote:
At this time, the Jews started a war because they were forbidden to mutilate their genitals.
[Historia Augusta, Hadrian 14.2]

That's pretty much asking jews to quit being jews, which crosses a line that would obviously lead to rebellion. I merely mention it because it was the last time the jews would field an army until the 20th century. However, by this time judea had already been wrecked by a number of other wars -- this was just the final nail in the coffin.

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Everard
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") I never made that argument. I never mentioned babylon. Do you have anything else you would like for me to have said?"

You did make the argument Redskull is talking about, though, as you said

"Just to pick a nit, but both of those occasions were self inflicted. You can't really call it persecution if you bring your doom upon yourself."

In response to the statement that jews had been kicked out of their homeland twice. You can't say that they self-inflicted being kicked out of their homeland, and then say you didn't make the argument that jews were responsible for being kicked out of their homeland because you didn't mention specifically which time you were talking about, despite the fact your original statement includes both times.

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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
In response to the statement that jews had been kicked out of their homeland twice. You can't say that they self-inflicted being kicked out of their homeland, and then say you didn't make the argument that jews were responsible for being kicked out of their homeland because you didn't mention specifically which time you were talking about, despite the fact your original statement includes both times.
I never mentioned babylon. I only said that getting kicked out twice was self inflicted. I hadn't even had a chance to imply what direction I intended to take with that. That's what bugged me--there was no argument yet, just an unsupported claim. Redskull's comment was specifically directed at an argument which hadn't been made yet.

I guess my above statement is a little unclear--I don't mean to say that I didn't claim that the exile was self inflicted (as I obviously did.) I just didn't see it as an opportunity for redskull to come from on high to deliver a history lesson.

[ August 31, 2005, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: Serotonin'sGone ]

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Everard
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Well, if redskull sees the statement as completely unsupported, then of course its an opportunity for him to deliver a history lesson.
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canadian
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chill, dude.
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Serotonin'sGone
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quote:
Well, if redskull sees the statement as completely unsupported, then of course its an opportunity for him to deliver a history lesson.
How happy would you have been if I'd responded to this:

quote:
The roman emporer who ordered that a statue of himself be placed inside the holy of holies was a friggin idiot, and caused the wars that followed ending with the diaspora. When you desecrate a holy site and then send soldiers to enforce that desecration, its not the fault of the people who get pissed about the desecration.
with this:
Everard, you need to do a bit more research on Jewish history. for starters enter caligula and temple statue into a good search engine.

enjoy.

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Redskullvw
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SG

You really need to chill. Had I given you a history lesson, you would still be as peeved as you currently are. I saved myself typing time, and have let others point out the errors in your argument. In your defense your nitpick was phrased in a sweeping generality that made it easy to see some glaring holes. While others have used your argument as a punching bag, I did not. I just pointed you in a simple direction, hoping you might further develop a more factually valid argument.

You have yet to do so. and in response to your question of how Everard would have responded to a suggestion to do a bit more research, he would likely have done the search, realized the error he made, thank me politely, and then present a much better argument. thats how ornery works. If you say something silly or stupid, someone will call you on it. But unlike other message boards, instead of gloating or wishing a diminished reputation on the person who is in error, Ornery members offer a more polite and simple way for people to rectify errors. No one cares about your education or level of intelligence. We do care when someone posts against simple common sense.

If you feel slighted then there is not a thing I can do to mitigate it. But you can be reasonably sure I intended no offense and was simply intending to focus the two sides of the argument on the thread. I had hoped to find the thread moving towards intelligent discussion. you have repeatedly denied your original point, that others have shown to have indeed been your point. Either retract it and start over, or continue this pointless ranting against the injustice of my recomending you do a little research. I have treated many other members of Ornery much more harshly in the past when they have made errors like the one you have made, by posting large detailed explanations that leaving them looking foolish and inept.

Consider also, that far from being the sole practitioner of this tactic, many others have done the same. As several people have said privately, you need to "chill", and stop badgering me for pointing out your argument's fault. Move on, refine your argument. If your lucky no one will decide to insult your intelligence publicly and deconstruct your nit-pick. I for one have no more time left to waste on your problem with me, or my suppossed insult to your intellect.

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Hannibal
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Thats it,
today israel has withrew from Gaza, probably never to return

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Jesse
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I've been thinking about this and I finally have an analogy to describe how I felt about the museum of the holocaust.

I've really been thinking about this a lot, I wasn't exagerrating when I said I almost threw up.

Imagine a Cherokee Trail of Tears Museum which detailed all the legal manuvering that lead to the US breaking their treaty obligations, the racism involved in the decision, and detailed the suffering of those who died and were displaced.

A great museum, really, which told a powerful and moving story, and provided a wealth of information.

No, imagine that in this museum, you find a little display, which essentially says "A bunch of native americans from other tribes suffered hardship as a result of US policy".

It's fine to just tell your own story, it really is, I don't expect that the Museum of the Holocaust has an obligation to tell us about the people who endured the siege of Stalingrad or the suffering of Londoners during the Blitz.

Sometimes, it's just a lot better NOT to include a footnote.

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
Thats it,
today israel has withrew from Gaza, probably never to return

quote:
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's Security Cabinet authorized a Gaza ground incursion that would begin by Sunday unless the Palestinian Authority asserted control over Gaza or Hamas declared an end to rocket attacks, according to The Associated Press quoting unnamed security sources.
Source
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Hannibal
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you know, i was just looking for this thread to post this...

so Javelin let me give you an update on the latest escalation...

1)Hamas make rally
2)Hamas's own weapons blow up in that rally killing 20 arabs
3)not to look stupid infront of his own people Hamas blames israel and vows to revange
4)Hamas launches 36 rockets!!! on the israeli city Shderot during the following night

can you see how low, barbarous, evil, sadistic, crapholes they can get? they kill their own people, blame it on us, and launch their biggest millitary operation in "retaliation"

just as Israel warned the palestinian authority that if AFTER :
"Thats it,
today israel has withrew from Gaza, probably never to return "

the palestinians will attack israel - there will be a massive retaliation from our side, in order NOT to make it some sort of "equation" of qasam rocket = israeli rocket, we are, hopefully, going to up the ante and blast the hell out of them. just like i said so in my eaerlier posts this thread.
i hope that we will wipe some gazan blocks now, so they will see who they are dealing with.

I DO hope that no israeli soldier will "walk" into gaza again, but instead israel will use its IAF and artillery
and i DO hope they will see only 5% of what we can do, and it will defenetly be enough for them.

ok now feel free to jump on my throat

[ September 24, 2005, 09:14 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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Hannibal
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the fact that it took our army several hours to "retaliate" is scandalous in my opinion.

its only because a "minor" suburb with no economic power was attacked.

if Tel Aviv was bombed by 36 qasam rockets, we whould LEVEL gaza totally, and everybody knows it

but this small town Shderot, IS a part of israel propper, it is not a disputed territory, and as far as i am concerned it should get "equal" consideration as if Tel Aviv or Jerusalem were attacked.
that there are no high tech factories there, and that most of the town's people are minimum wage and less educated, doesnt mean their security is less important

[ September 24, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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