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Author Topic: Mayor Nagin's Culpability
Richard Dey
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Was Mayor Nagin’s Bush Blast Justified?

Nagin refused to issue a general evacuation order until last Sunday because he felt obliged to check with his attorneys on Saturday to consider the liability issues of doing so.

Nagin it was who was who established the evacuation centers, and it was he who was responsible for keeping local order. Was Nagin prepared? None of these evacuation centers was ready. They had:

NO “meals ready to eat” (MREs)
NO water-purification equipment on site
NO chemical toilets
NO sick bay
NO anti-biotics or anti-diarrheals
NO designated any medical staff to work the evacuation centers
NO vehicular bullhorns in the event of electrical failure
NO police to guard them
NO backup emergency communications systems for fire or police
NO school buses on high ground (they got swamped)

NB: LA is surprisingly 72% urban. 28,500 of 1,400,000 blacks in LA are registered Republicans (.020%). Nagin was one of these until 2003 when Nagin switched parties and reluctantly supported Kerry. He did not support Blanco.

A quote on this issue: The City-Journal: "Mayor Ray Nagin and Governor Kathleen
Blanco lost whatever fragile authority they ever had over New Orleans early Monday, as the waters still rose.”

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David Ricardo
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Just a nitpick. Mayor Nagin did not blash Bush; he blasted the feds and the state officials. Quite honestly, the state officials like Governor Blanco deserve their share of the blame, but so do the federal officials like FEMA and Homeland Security.
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The Refugee
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Blanco is a pretty crappy governor. She deserves all the blasting she can get. Chances are many of the problems going on right now are because of her lack of communication between local and national. She's the go between but she never seems to know what's going on. Here in BR on the local channels we keep seeing the public announcements she and Nagin keep giving and she stands there looking like a complete fool. When asked a question she gets this very perplexed look on her face for like ten seconds then gives some very confusing and pointless answer. Everyone mostly ignores her and they ask Nagin all the important questions.

edited to add: except the ones only a governor can answer.

[ September 03, 2005, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: The Refugee ]

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Richard Dey
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That's interesting, but can Blanco be blamed for what Nagin didn't do ...?

There are now reports -- har-har -- of bias against whites. Apparently, tens of thousands of whites are still on their roofs in outlying cities -- whilst the blacks of New Orleans are all dining in Texas!

Favorite repartee so far:

"The politicans are suggesting that we give jobs to the refugees to clean up the city. Do you think that's a good idea?"

"I ain't workin' in no ****hole. I ain't livin' in no trailer. I'm a mother."

[Wink]

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Richard Dey -

I've got heard the exchange that contained the quote
quote:
The politicans are suggesting that we give jobs to the refugees to clean up the city. Do you think that's a good idea?
...However, I think that with the proper leader, that plan (or 'that thought', as it may be) could be executed in a manner which would make New Orleans a great city again.

--Firedrake

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flydye45
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Saving any of that blame for Nagin, David? Just to get things out in the open. If what Richard says is true, a vast part of the blame is his because HIS city wasn't prepared at all.
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David Ricardo
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flydye, I am not very happy with the unused bus situation and other stuff, but I also give the mayor credit for his leadership after the flooding occurred. We'll see if I give him a good or bad grade after everything is over.

But, frankly, from my position the state and federal officials definitely screwed up.

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flydye45
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Not even going to wait for an after action report on them? Is that fair?
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Richard Dey
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FD:

Frankly, I was not given the media impression that those around the erstwhile refugees were very good at cleaning up anything, let alone a whole city; but I'm sure you would be considered for a people-management position (if, of course, you are black and a democrat).

The impression I got of Nagin, frankly, when he finally did make an appearance (on Wednesday was it?), was that he was trying to save face. Reading the official New Oleans website -- whose last message went out to 'fill your tubs with water' and 'bring your pets inside' -- gave the strong impression that the mayor panicked or, perhaps, was not even in town. In the event, he performed worse than Dukakas did in the Blizzard of 1978. He didn't just say "we need help"; he said that "thousands are dying every day". He had no such data, and the next day lowered it to "hundreds dead". The man didn't even know what kind of help to ask for.

One suspects that, having done almost nothing in preparation, he didn't know what to do next. One thing he failed to control was his police officers. If on'es police force panics (and a large number abandoned Nagin), you've got a palace revolt on your hands. If the palace is underwater, well, you could have an internal insurrection (if the erstwhile refugees are anywhere near so put-upon and undernourished as has been suggested on other, less-rational threads) [Wink] . The fear of insurrection, even the appearance of insurrection would have led to compromising headlines for the whole country.

If the President hesitated at all, it was that he did not want American blood on his hands. It would have looked pretty bad if he'd done what I would have done:-- sending in the troops with guns blasting. Instead, he did what I wouldn't have bothered to do; he waited until the restless natives, albeit in desparation, calmed down the snipers on their own.

I've abandoned my support for Bush pretty much, but so far I've been impressed with his timing on this issue, not outraged by it. He did have 350 million others about to pay $3.80 for gas, after all (which only shows why his oil company failed).

What I am outraged by is the sniping, the looting, and the lying. When one needs bread and water, one doesn't bag the designer clothes, hit the jewelry shops, and drive off in a Mercedes Benz. There was far too much disrespect shown the city by the people for me to believe that simply cleaning it up will make it a great city again.

Honestly, a city can be great and corrupt at the same time; on the other hand, corruption dislikes disruption. If the corruption settles someplace else, New Orleans will have to find another means of survival.

A good comparison is Boston. When it bulldozed Scollay Square, it wiped out the sleaze, the seediness, the grit and grime of the centuries, the honky-tonk that made it attractive. It yuppified and gentrified itself, and that, frankly, repels tourists -- and businessmen. Tourists want to be glad to go home, businessmen want cheap labor. Every plan for redeveloping NO so far turns it into a shops-under, flats-over development with all the unique charm of an urban renewal project. That's a nationally expensive tourist project when it has one of the highest welfare rates in the country.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Richard Dey -

I had not considered some of that.

I agree that rebuilding the city that was New Orleans is a huge, and possibly impossible task. Do you have any ideas on execution?

--Firedrake

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Richard Dey
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FDR (I can never think of you as anything but FD [Wink] .

One thing I would not do is hire any firm from SFO to design it! The multi-billion-dollar boondoggle of Boston's Big Dig (which leaks) is proof that Bechtel Parsons Brinckerhoff is incompetent, greedy, and corrupt beyond the wildest dreams of avarice and the worst delusions of paranoia. Making Boston a mess was the biggest project in the country to date but would be dwarfed by making NO actually 'safe'.

Since they will rebuild, and probably gut thousands of interiors at tax expense, repainting everything as is and in situ, they probably won't make any substantive changes. The ACE has already stated blankly that it "may consider" bringing the dikes to accommodate a category 5 storm "in future" (indicating that it doesn't care if New Orleans is washed away). This is it's lame way of saying that they had defended the city in the first place!

Rather, I'd bring in the Dutch to make an assessment of the situation. They're hard-headed businessmen who have access to tons of data and centuries of expertise. They've created polders all over the world.

A concrete enclosure of the city between the spillways using a double-stacked subway line as an excuse with a new highway atop it is an extravagant possibility and political impossibility. That would mean moving all the houses actually on Ponchatrain elsewhere -- and that would cause political ripples the size of tidal waves. So the very reason that the city was left unprotected was the choice of New Orleans; it didn't want to block its view!

Building a real causeway on the sea-side of Ponchatrain is possible (the Dutch built a huge one across the Ijsselmeer, I think about 20 miles long), but I don't know how the hydraulics would work.

The irony is that New Orleans is not much threatened by a Mississippi flood! though who knows what the future holds.

Raising the town between the spillways wouldn't be impossible. Boston filled in its Back Bay, NoSoBo, South Bay, Town Coves, and many more square miles by horse and cart in the 19th century. I think eventually it employed the 1st steam shovels. This would be done in NO on concrete pilings and fill. The problem is that the present housing stock wouldn't warrant such an effort. One doesn't want to look down on the flooded area, but a lot of it was shantytown. What would make it worth while would destroy it all -- high-rises.

I suspect that many who left last will not return but settle for cash. Those who got out will be more likely to return -- and they will want to go back to everything as it was; and not even billions of dollars wasted will change their minds. What I fear is that ACE will simply reconstruct something that wasn't safe or good in the first place.

Downtown had far fewer problems, apparently. In any event, it has to be saved.

Honestly, I would bulldoze between the city and the lake, turn it into floodables: a 12-lane highway, the world's biggest parking lot, a park, and high-speed rail -- all separated from the city proper by concrete thises and thats, even skyscrapers (so long as their ground floors are well above sea level and their garages have lots and lots of exits for fast excape) and so long as the skyscrapers have no housing. Why should we pay some penthouse jerk to replace his Mercedes that got damp in the garage?

I'd build 3 or 4 100,000 new high-rise towns (cheaper than rehabbing). I'd call one Katrinatown, but I wouldn't name any for the mayor or the governor.

I think NO would come out better in the end if it abandoned the low strip altogether. The land here is sinking, and maintaining it shall only require higher and higher diking when it could be required that all new structures actually form their own dikes.

New Orleans doesn't have the convenience of London or Providence, both of which have put in hurricane barriers to protect them. New Orleans is a more complicated problem, but -- with federal dollars -- anything is possible.

What I'm wondering, will ACE take the opportunity to lay all new water and sewer lines, new power lines, and all the good stuff while it has the opportunity? Actually, New Orleans could make out like a bandit. The great boon to Boston in the Big Dig was untangling 350 years of underground confusion -- and getting a base for its own sea wall should the ice caps melt!

Whatever happens, we will all feel the pinch. I don't think its impossible, but I just know these things. It will turn into a boondoggle, it will costs us our shirts, and I think Huey Long should be dug up and shot.

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WarrsawPact
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quote:
28,500 of 1,400,000 blacks in LA are registered Republicans (.020%)
Nitpicking here, but that math didn't look right.

28,500 out of 1,400,000 is 2%, not .02%.

And secondly, how many of LA's blacks are registered for voting period? How many for the Dems? How many are independent?

And are you trying to insinuate that racial demographics had something to do with the emergency preparedness?

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Richard Dey
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WP:

Sorry, a d-double emphasis! .02 or 2% of LA's black voters are registered Republicans. I do not know what % of LA's blacks are irresponsible and choose not to register for jury duty or to vote.

Quite the opposite, I so far find much to suggest Nagin's own culpability in the fiasco.

In the chain of responsibility, the 1st was a black man, the 2nd was a white woman, and only the 3rd was a white man.

The charges of racism are false in the 1st degree, the charges of sexism are false in the 2nd degree, and only in the court of last resort, the 3rd degree, are white-male chauvinist pigs responsible (in this case Mr Bush whomI do not yet find responsible for the disaster). There is much talk about Bush's diversion of funds from levee construction, and all I've found so far is diversion of war reserves to prevent the outbreak of insurrection.

Hey, it wasn't Hurricane Kumba Ya, but she did come from Africa, after all [Wink] .

The 1st examples of anger (and the 1st accusations hurled at the Bush administration) appeared in the media a full 24 hrs before the Mayor of New Orleans even made an appearance in the drama. It was knee-jerk anti-racism, and it passed by the upturned noses of the media without a whiff. One (white male) correspondent in the City denounced the sniping, the rest of the correspondents whom I saw, diverted the accusations away from a black mayor and a woman governor to Washington -- with the implication that the handling of refugees was racist (against poor blacks) and sexist (against poor women).

Why didn't the mayor's advertised plan work? Where was the emergency equipment that was contract for but not delivered? Where were the mayor's police? Where was the mayor?

Where were the chivalrous black knights, cutting a swath of safety for their womenfolk? Oh, that would have been illegal because they had fled the city, obeying the (late) edict to flee. Where were the school buses?

Where were the women fit enough to move quickly in time of disaster? Surely the liberal media could have found a few women not swatting their kids or not pillaging designer clothes.

Racism was at work, all right, most-obviously in the form of antiracist demagoguery and what I suggest were unwarranted castigations of the Republicans.

My last question is even more blunt. Where were the chaplains going down with their ship?

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Richard Dey
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ss: www.headlinenews

New Orleans Police Turn In Badges

September 3, 2005 4:02 a.m. EST


Andrea Moore - All Headline News Staff Reporter

New Orleans, Louisiana (AHN) - As devastated residents crack while starving under the squalid conditions of Katrina's aftermath, some local police are feeling defeated enough to give up.

Chief of the Louisiana State Police, Henry Whitehorn, says there are numerous instances of police officers turning-in their badges. The chief says the police have lost everything and don't feel it's worth going back to take fire from looters and lose their own lives.

One stranded tourist says after asking a police officer for help, he told her to "go to hell"; indicating it was every man for himself. ...

Downtown, a large fire has erupted in a dry section of Canal Street while individuals fire at helicopters trying to drop supplies to devastated hospitals. The shooters are screaming at pilots to take them out of the city.

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Richard Dey
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From the Picayune-Times:

Powerless still

Wednesday, 7:55 p.m.

By Keith Darce

The 6,000 power line workers currently assembled in southeastern Louisiana won’t be nearly enough to restore electricity to the 990,000 customers still without power in metropolitan New Orleans, the region’s suppliers said Wednesday. ...

The atmosphere of near-anarchy in New Orleans is major concern, said Arthur Wiese Jr., vice president of corporate communications for Entergy.

“We can’t send workers out and put their lives in jeopardy,” he said late Wednesday afternoon from the one of the company’s storm command centers in Jackson, Miss. “Once we have facilities back operating, we have to know that our workers can get to work safely.

“We are as alarmed as anyone over the chaos in the city. It is a very serious question,” Wiese said.

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Richard Dey
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NEW ORLEANS Aug 31, 2005 — Mayor Ray Nagin ordered 1,500 police officers to leave their search-and-rescue mission Wednesday night and return to the streets to stop looting that has turned increasingly hostile as the city plunges deeper into chaos.

"They are starting to get closer to heavily populated areas hotels, hospitals, and we're going to stop it right now," Nagin said in a statement to The Associated Press.

The number of officers called off the search-and-rescue mission amounts to virtually the entire police force in New Orleans.

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Richard Dey
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Sorry, that was KEVIN McGILL Associated Press

"It's really difficult because my opinion of the looting is it started with people running out of food [that would have been the day after the hurricane struck], and you can't really argue with that too much," Nagin said. "Then it escalated to this kind of mass chaos where people are taking electronic stuff and all that."

We will restore law and order," Blanco said. "What angers me the most is that disasters like this often bring out the worst in people. I will not tolerate this kind of behavior."

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Richard Dey
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Responsibility for Disaster : Poll : 2005.09.04

Federal government adequately prepared? Y = 31% No = 67%
State/local government adequately prepared? Y = 24% N = 75%
Blame Bush? Y = 44% N = 55%

ss: http://abcnews.go.com/US/HurricaneKatrina/story?id=1094262&page=1

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WarrsawPact
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Nagin?

Oh, that Nagin!

quote:
Ivan exposes flaws in N.O.'s disaster plans

05:09 PM CDT on Sunday, September 19, 2004

By KEVIN McGILL
Associated Press

Those who had the money to flee Hurricane Ivan ran into hours-long traffic jams. Those too poor to leave the city had to find their own shelter - a policy that was eventually reversed, but only a few hours before the deadly storm struck land.

New Orleans dodged the knockout punch many feared from the hurricane, but the storm exposed what some say are significant flaws in the Big Easy's civil disaster plans.

Much of New Orleans is below sea level, kept dry by a system of pumps and levees. As Ivan charged through the Gulf of Mexico, more than a million people were urged to flee. Forecasters warned that a direct hit on the city could send torrents of Mississippi River backwash over the city's levees, creating a 20-foot-deep cesspool of human and industrial waste.

Residents with cars took to the highways. Others wondered what to do.

"They say evacuate, but they don't say how I'm supposed to do that," Latonya Hill, 57, said at the time. "If I can't walk it or get there on the bus, I don't go. I don't got a car. My daughter don't either."


Advocates for the poor were indignant.

"If the government asks people to evacuate, the government has some responsibility to provide an option for those people who can't evacuate and are at the whim of Mother Nature," said Joe Cook of the New Orleans ACLU.

It's always been a problem, but the situation is worse now that the Red Cross has stopped providing shelters in New Orleans for hurricanes rated above Category 2. Stronger hurricanes are too dangerous, and Ivan was a much more powerful Category 4.

In this case, city officials first said they would provide no shelter, then agreed that the state-owned Louisiana Superdome would open to those with special medical needs. Only Wednesday afternoon, with Ivan just hours away, did the city open the 20-story-high domed stadium to the public.

Mayor Ray Nagin's spokeswoman, Tanzie Jones, insisted that there was no reluctance at City Hall to open the Superdome, but said the evacuation was the top priority.

"Our main focus is to get the people out of the city," she said.

Callers to talk radio complained about the late decision to open up the dome, but the mayor said he would do nothing different.

"We did the compassionate thing by opening the shelter," Nagin said. "We wanted to make sure we didn't have a repeat performance of what happened before. We didn't want to see people cooped up in the Superdome for days."

When another dangerous hurricane, Georges, appeared headed for the city in 1998, the Superdome was opened as a shelter and an estimated 14,000 people poured in. But there were problems, including theft and vandalism.

This time far fewer took refuge from the storm - an estimated 1,100 - at the Superdome and there was far greater security: 300 National Guardsmen.

The main safety measure - getting people out of town - raised its own problems.

More than 1 million people tried to leave the city and surrounding suburbs on Tuesday, creating a traffic jam as bad as or worse than the evacuation that followed Georges. In the afternoon, state police took action, reversing inbound lanes on southeastern Louisiana interstates to provide more escape routes. Bottlenecks persisted, however.

Col. Henry Whitehorn, head of state police, said he believes his agency acted appropriately, but also acknowledged he never expected a seven-hour-long crawl for the 60 miles between New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

It was so bad that some broadcasters were telling people to stay home, that they had missed their window of opportunity to leave. They claimed the interstates had turned into parking lots where trapped people could die in a storm surge.

Gov. Kathleen Blanco and Nagin both acknowledged the need to improve traffic flow and said state police should consider reversing highway lanes earlier. They also promised meetings with governments in neighboring localities and state transportation officials to improve evacuation plans.

But Blanco and other state officials stressed that, while irritating, the clogged escape routes got people out of the most vulnerable areas.

"We were able to get people out," state Commissioner of Administration Jerry Luke LeBlanc said. "It was successful. There was frustration, yes. But we got people out of harm's way."



[ September 05, 2005, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

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Skycountry
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Nagin could have done more. Blanco could have done more. But that doesn't change the fact that FEMA was asleep at the wheel. I'm not sure if that's because they're wrapped into Homeland Security or not, or what Bush could have done to speed up the process, but they were late.

When the twin towers fell, all the FEMA heads were at a conference here at Big Sky Resort. Before the dust had settled, F-16s from Malmstom AFB were scrambled to Helena, where they took key FEMA

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Skycountry
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Nagin could have done more. Blanco could have done more. But that doesn't change the fact that FEMA was asleep at the wheel. I'm not sure if that's because they're wrapped into Homeland Security or not, or what Bush could have done to speed up the process, but they were late.

When the twin towers fell, all the FEMA heads were at a conference here at Big Sky Resort. Before the dust had settled, F-16s from Malmstom AFB were scrambled to Helena, where they took key FEMA personel to ground-zero THAT DAY. My cousin is a commications tech and he was in Manhatten setting up an emergency satellite phone system...THAT DAY.

This time FEMA was on the ground 4 days later...

Something's broken.

For the Feds to blame the local officials is like the Generals blaming the soldiers...

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Gaoics79
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I don't think you can compare the response to a multi pronged terrorist attack on the heart of America to a natural disaster. 911 wasn't just random disaster effecting one part of the country; it was a national emergency with national repercussions, with massive international consequences.

No matter how many people end up dying as a result of Katrina, the bottom line is it will not really change the lives of most Americans in any significant way. It is nothing like 911, and it's silly to compare the two.

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Funean
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Well, my gas this weekend was $3.49 a gallon, and I'm pretty sure I know what my company's fuel expenses are going to look like for the fall.

Plus New Orleans is a really major US port.

I don't think it's accurate to say that Katrina won't really change the lives of most Americans significantly (frankly, it's already changed my life more significantly than 9/11 did, in terms of concrete immediate effect), though your observation of the qualitative difference between terrorist attacks and natural disasters is well-taken.

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Jon Camp
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Skycountry -- when you consider that the FEMA standard plan for this type of disaster calls for 72-96 hours for them to get there and they were there in about 80 hours when they had to clear and in some cases rebuild roads and bridges to get there. . . . sounds like they did everything exactly as planned, and perhaps a bit better than should really have been expected. And who's supposed to be "Johnny-on-the-spot" for those 1st 72-96 hours? Oh that's right. The local and state governments. Assuming, of course that the people themselves can't take care of themselves.

But of course it's all the federal governments fault for taking so long, in spite of the fact that they took only as long as their plans and preparation call for. [Roll Eyes]

And before you make some ridiculous comment about how their plans need to be for less time, go study out why the plan calls for that initial 72-96 hour lead time. It's not because they want it to be there, it's because it's quite literally impossible for it not to be there.

If you feel inclined to educate yourself, follow these links:

Logistics of Disater Relief
More Logistics of Disaster Relief
Still More Logistics of Disaster Relief
Comments from a Floridian survivor of hurricanes past
Another Logistics Reality Check
Why Couldn't We Pre-Position Troops? This is Why:
Failure of Command
The Domestic Support Operations Doctrine
The Unforgiving Mathematics of Evacuations
What Does it Take to Move Just One Truck?

And in his Fisking of Bob Herbert's NYT piece, the author of most of the prior links has this to say:
quote:
The federal government pretty much met its standard timelines, but the volume of support provided in the 72-96 hour standard window was unprecedented. The federal response here was faster than Hugo, faster than Andrew, faster than Iniki, faster than Charley, faster that Francine and Jeanne.
Edit that darn ubb code.

[ September 05, 2005, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Jon Camp ]

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canadian
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jasonr, I live in Alberta and our gas prices jumped by 20 cents per litre this week from 98 cents to $1.18.
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The Refugee
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quote:
Originally posted by Skycountry:

When the twin towers fell, all the FEMA heads were at a conference here at Big Sky Resort. Before the dust had settled, F-16s from Malmstom AFB were scrambled to Helena, where they took key FEMA personel to ground-zero THAT DAY. My cousin is a commications tech and he was in Manhatten setting up an emergency satellite phone system...THAT DAY.

This time FEMA was on the ground 4 days later...

Well, yeah, its easy to fly in a couple of officials. It takes a lot more time to drive in thousands of National Gaurdsmen and evacuate thousands of stranded citizens. Jon Camp's links tell you a lot about that. Even with all restraints, lack of buses along with all the stuff they had to bring, not to mention the long drive, they still managed to get around 1,400 gaurdsmen to NO each day.
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Richard Dey
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Skycountry:

The Governor told the President that she had to check with the Mayor; they Mayor said that he had to check with his lawyers. The request for federal assistance was stalled in Baton Rouge. That was not the President's fault.

You might note also that Jon's figures could have been even less -- if the Governor could have decided what to do.

It is increasingly obvious that Nagin was not ill prepared for anything but unprepared. What did he use the federal monies for that he was given to develop evacuation centers? Where was the food? yet WDC wasn't informed that there wasn't food at the Superdrome until Sunday!!! And why were the hungry blaming WDC?

I hate letting Bush II and Brown off the hook, but so far the city and state are blaming the feds -- and they haven't caught the feds on anything yet.

Thanks for that data, Jon; it seriously supports my contention.

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Richard Dey
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They've heard my plea! The Dutch are on their way.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
jasonr, I live in Alberta and our gas prices jumped by 20 cents per litre this week from 98 cents to $1.18.
In Quebec it's $1.30. Boo hoo. For most Americans, this will mean more bitching at the gas pump, but not a whole lot else. It will effect certain industries more severely of course, but what else is new? Nothing earth shattering. Bottom line: most Americans will go on with their lives as if nothing had happened.
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FIJC
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quote:
"...However, I think that with the proper leader, that plan (or 'that thought', as it may be) could be executed in a manner which would make New Orleans a great city again.

--Firedrake"

Does anyone else think that New Orleans should not be rebuilt? It below sea-level and in between two bodies of water.
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Funean
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Well, despite that it's lasted some 400 years anyhow. And it's a major port, provides metro support for the undeniably important oil wells and refineries that must be located there, and it's a vital contributor to our culture.

Besides, New Orleansians won't go anywhere else, and so they'll have to rebuild. [Smile]

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TS Elliot
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Seems to me that the biggest, if not only cause for destruction was the breaking of the levees and the subsequent flooding. Nagin is in no way responsible for that. But bush is. he appointed his cronies to head HomelandSec and Fema, who previously had NO expertise on the matter whatsoever, they replaced people who HAD expertise, BUT of course who were appointed by clinton.
So, yes, the responsability is bush's. Sure, he can blame K.Rove for pushing him to go into Iraq of course ....


quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dey:
he said that "thousands are dying every day". He had no such data, and the next day lowered it to "hundreds dead".

Load of crap. He said "hundreds are death, and thousands might be death". Nowhere did Nagin state with certainty that thousands ARE death, not with same amount of certainty that 'Hundreds' were death.

quote:
link
"No one has been able to count the dead from Hurricane Katrina's rampage on the Gulf Coast, but Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt said Sunday that it is "evident it's in the thousands." Leavitt was the first federal official to give an estimate.BBC link

quote:
If on'es police force panics (and a large number abandoned Nagin), you've got a palace revolt on your hands. If the palace is underwater, well, you could have an internal insurrection
does anyone else also feels a Waco-styled conspiracy coming up too? [Big Grin]

quote:

If the President hesitated at all, it was that he did not want American blood on his hands. It would have looked pretty bad if he'd done what I would have done:-- sending in the troops with guns blasting. Instead, he did what I wouldn't have bothered to do; he waited until the restless natives, albeit in desparation, calmed down the snipers on their own.

Clarify. you mean he didn't want WHITE american blood on his hands, "dying to save blacks"? And "restless natives" is a pretty stupid, inflammatory image to use in this already racially charged context. Unless you want that, of course.

quote:
What I am outraged by is the sniping, the looting, and the lying. When one needs bread and water, one doesn't bag the designer clothes, hit the jewelry shops, and drive off in a Mercedes Benz
.
Where did you see people (I assume you mean black people?) drive off in a Benz, after asking for water? Provide links.

quote:
Honestly, a city can be great and corrupt at the same time;
Sounds like a typical right winger epitaph for Nixon.
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canadian
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
jasonr, I live in Alberta and our gas prices jumped by 20 cents per litre this week from 98 cents to $1.18.
In Quebec it's $1.30. Boo hoo. For most Americans, this will mean more bitching at the gas pump, but not a whole lot else. It will effect certain industries more severely of course, but what else is new? Nothing earth shattering. Bottom line: most Americans will go on with their lives as if nothing had happened.
Yeah, it jumped about a quarter across the board, coast to coast. Don't forget, we produce the stuff...or at least dig it up and refine it...

What will be different is accelerated increase in costs of goods and services.

The refineries around New Orleans are pretty important to the overall US economy, and therefore will have an effect that way, spreading out ripples across the world.

One good thing is that for the next couple years, anyway, Governments will take the Weather seriously.

Displacing a half million Americans might have some kind of unforeseen impact as well.

I'm sure I could go on...

[ September 05, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: canadian ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr: I don't think you can compare the response to a multi pronged terrorist attack on the heart of America to a natural disaster.
No, they saw Katrina coming for days, and the Pentagon attacks not at all. Yet FEMA was in NYC that SAME day and it took them FOUR days to get to NewO.


quote:
911 wasn't just random disaster effecting one part of the country; it was a national emergency with national repercussions, with massive international consequences.

Man, such bull. Gas prices are rising everywhere, over the WHOLE world, the Europeans have to come to the aid of the USA directly, giving them oil so the already ridiculous cheap gas prices don't rise too much, causing great disruption in the us economy. Now, I'm the first to admit that I dunno how much of the oil infrastructure could have been saved by better levees, but don't say that 11 sept. has bigger international consequenses. If it had, it was by choice, choice of the US govt.


quote:
No matter how many people end up dying as a result of Katrina, the bottom line is it will not really change the lives of most Americans in any significant way. It is nothing like 911, and it's silly to compare the two.
Maybe not, but not for the reason you described. and rising gasprices is much more significant REAL change than the post 11-sept. fearmongering by bush.

[ September 05, 2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: TS Elliot ]

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TS Elliot
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dey:
They've heard my plea! The Dutch are on their way.

Like i said earlier, the head of the Dutch corpse of army engineers had visited newO in 2004 to check the situation and to help arguing the case of strengthening those levees. He got (politely) laughed off.
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RickyB
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Richard, how can you be impressed with Bush's timing? National Guard didn't get there unti Friday! By Wednsday, nobody would have been outraged at shooting the more vicious looters. PLease. By the time they got there it was too late. past the magical 72 hour mark.

And as much as Nagin deserves blame (let alone this blank-headed governor), this storm, by virtue of hitting (and known to be about to hit) more than one state becomes federal responsibility. Bush did NOT have his finger on the pulse of the situation. Did not spend Saturday and Sunday on the phone with either Nagin or Blanco, and didn't get his ass in gear until tuesday fockin morning. Why is that, when this very board had enough trepidation on it to boast a thread called "will New Orleans Be Here on Tuesday?"

Please. Don't let Bozo the Brownie lover off the hook just because you want to make the point about Nagin.

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DonaldD
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"Dutch corpse of army engineers"

That's actually darkly funny...

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Jesse
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Not even going to wait for an after action report on them? Is that fair?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fair, or not, the blame game is really for a later time. That's a general statement which is no more aimed at this threads leading post than it is aimed at those offering counter-arguments.

We, as a nation, have a problem of immense proportion that needs solving. This is an argument worth having, but it most certainly is not worth having right now when the facts are not in and we ought to have priorities other than political point scoring.

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TS Elliot
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It's simple really. The biggest destruction was caused by the breaking of the levees. Those were in no way the responsability of state and city. And the "but clinton didn't do it either defense" don't wash, because
1. Clinton did not destroy the wetlands, bush did.
2. Ever since new orleans had been recognized as one of the 3 biggest disasters, republicans have in office more than dems.

PS
Don't you "neh-neh-nah-neh-neh-we-ignore-TS-Elliot-chilluns" feel strangely liberated that you don't have to react to me anymore? I love that! Since you don't have arguments to debate with me anymore, you decide to ignore me! [Smile] How mature ....

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TS Elliot
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I love it how I can silence the opposition ....
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