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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Intelligence and IT (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Intelligence and IT
Richard Dey
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TD:

We made it Bill Gates' job to make it easier -- and that's why he's rich. We didn't do it with you, but that's no just cause to make it more difficult for us.

I've been on a computer since 1969, and I have no intentions of knowing more than I have to know at the given moment in the technology's development. For cripes sake, I still ahve the EMAX codes rattling around in my head.

If we computer-illiterate twits hadn't INSISTED on compatible codes -- and, now, platforms, we'd still be unable to denounce each other. [Big Grin]

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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Adam Lassek:
quote:
Well, there's the problem, ain't it? The classic problem why Linux sat around unused for so long - attitude (and a bad one).
I don't understand this comment. The Linux kernel's userbase has been growing exponentially since its release 13 years ago. It never "sat around."
Depends on your perspective. The installed Linux base really didn't grow past a bunch of dedicated IT, Hardware, and Software weenies until the packagers got involved (Red Hat, Debian, others). Not everybody was willing or able to get a hold of tar/gzip files and write their own drivers.

Once it reached a development stage where Linux didn't require you to figure out which RAMDAC your graphics card used, and which frequencies your monitor supported, it gained a lot more users.

Although, even Redhat 3.0 still lets users monkey with these settings.

It should be pointed out that the earliest PCI graphics cards could be polled for what they supported and how much memory they had installed, through simple register access. But the dorks doing linux thought it was better to use vi and enter information from the manual and various online FAQs.

Linux still only supports a subset of hardware, unlike XP. There are two reasons for this. First, hw manufacturers have little reason to write a linux driver for their hardware, or to provide linux QA. Second, linux volunteers can't write it because they can't get information from HW manufacturers. They often like to paint the HW company as a bad guy, but this is what happens when you show zero respect for proprietary information.


It is also worth pointing out that the exponential growth has little to do with end users. Linux has made its growth in web servers and other kinds of farms, and is rarely used as a solo operating system. Most companies I know that employ Linux still use PCs or Macs for their primary business machine.

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LetterRip
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quote:
It should be pointed out that the earliest PCI graphics cards could be polled for what they supported and how much memory they had installed, through simple register access. But the dorks doing linux thought it was better to use vi and enter information from the manual and various online FAQs.
Bioses and hardware frequently lied due to bugs.

quote:
Linux still only supports a subset of hardware, unlike XP.
It is possible that Linux actually supports more hardware than XP (all sorts of mainframe hardware, ppc, m68k, sparc, transmeta hardware, etc.), Linux support for recent hardware tends to lag since hardware developers generally don't provide Linux drivers.

quote:
They often like to paint the HW company as a bad guy, but this is what happens when you show zero respect for proprietary information.
The HW companies generally are the bad guys in this respect, claims of 'proprietary' are put on even the most trivial stuff. If the hardware company wishes to reduce the chance of their hardware being purchased by those who wish to use it with Linux, that is their choice. Of course once the adoption of Linux in China and India reaches critical mass, it is likely that forgoing linux will no longer be an option.

quote:
It is also worth pointing out that the exponential growth has little to do with end users.
Siemens projects 20% desktop market share by 2008. 2001 Desktop marketshare was 1.5%, not sure what currently think it is like 3-5%.

LetterRip

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Richard Dey
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LR:

Linux sucks Apple Juice! Linux users are going through every cult convulsion that Mac users went through. Cripes, that Wang users went through. MS is far from dead and has vast capital resources to meet all manner of competition. The issue here is compatibility -- as Apple has finally learnt to Macophiles' great personal costs. Let the farms pile them up in stacks, but figure out a way to marry them without inconvenience to the endusers. I still see endless cubicles of program writers -- divorced form the world of marketing.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

I have no intentions of knowing more than I have to know at the given moment in the technology's development.

I have complete and total respect for this. I only wish more people were able to correctly diagnose how much they have to know, and then go about knowing that much. [Smile]
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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by LetterRip:
Bioses and hardware frequently lied due to bugs.

And yet somehow the hated Windows 95 was able to handle it without requiring the user to crack their monitor or graphics card handbooks...

Two items can always tell the truth - the Mfg ID, and the Mfg part number. From there, you can build a lookup table for the overrides for the bad registers in the device.

quote:
It is possible that Linux actually supports more hardware than XP (all sorts of mainframe hardware, ppc, m68k, sparc, transmeta hardware, etc.), Linux support for recent hardware tends to lag since hardware developers generally don't provide Linux drivers.

I stand corrected in that regard. I should have specified general computing subsystems on an Intel backplane and interfaces. Linux, in particular, is a fantastic solution for embedded systems. That's why you'll find it in so many game machines, DVRs, etc etc.

quote:
The HW companies generally are the bad guys in this respect, claims of 'proprietary' are put on even the most trivial stuff. If the hardware company wishes to reduce the chance of their hardware being purchased by those who wish to use it with Linux, that is their choice.
I disagree. You can pretty much derive everything that is in a chip by reviewing the register specifications. I agree. Manufacturers are going to need to account for Linux in their roadmaps, but it will likely remain XP first, Linux second. Until, of course, the installed OS base changes the equation. Part of the problem also, is WHICH Linux to use in your QA department? Mandrake, Red Hat, Debian? Kernel 2.6, 2.7, 2.8? With or without 64 bit support?

quote:
It is also worth pointing out that the exponential growth has little to do with end users.
Siemens projects 20% desktop market share by 2008. 2001 Desktop marketshare was 1.5%, not sure what currently think it is like 3-5%.

LetterRip [/QB][/QUOTE]

Good info, but remember this is large corporate desktop share not SOHO. And it doesn't factor in the huge perturbation that Longhorn will introduce. If companies choose Longhorn over Linux in the next couple of years, that will lock in the base for another 5.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a Linux fan. I've been using it since 1994. There are many things to like about it. I run my webhosting on a Linux server, and wouldn't dream of moving to MS for that purpose. I've pushed companies to dump Solaris and adopt Linux (this transformation is largely complete - the world's microchips are now being designed and tested on Linux, with some Sun and HP workstations still hanging around).

I just wouldn't call it user-friendly or highly compatible - mostly due to business reasons rather than inherent weaknesses.

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Richard Dey said:
quote:
I still see endless cubicles of program writers -- divorced form the world of marketing.
A significant part of that is simply a lack of time, rather than a lack of interest. Developers tend to want to get some development and programming done. Endless marketing meetings prevent this. The best idea would probably be putting a customer representative and a marketing goon on the design team.

Of course I'm speaking as an undergrad, so I could be missing a few things that some of our more industry-tuned members will see.

--Firedrake

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javelin
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FireDrake - I agree with you, and on all of the good teams I've been on, it's been that way. There are ALWAYS programmers that don't interact with our customers - and they aren't allowed to touch or design the interface. They generally are relegated to fixing bugs and building the infrastructure.

When I get on a team where this isn't true - I leave. Programmers that don't learn the business, and don't talk to and understand the people using the software are called programmers. The rest of us tend to be called developers, or Developer/Analysts.

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Richard Dey
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It's Jap but it works. Don't invest in companies that don't do it.
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LetterRip
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Jav,

quote:
Part of the problem also, is WHICH Linux to use in your QA department? Mandrake, Red Hat, Debian? Kernel 2.6, 2.7, 2.8? With or without 64 bit support?
Agreed - (of course there is no 2.7 or 2.8 kernel [Smile] ) - Latest Red Hat linux is the 'standard' both with and without 64 bit. Although with Suse Ubuntu, etc. it is becoming more of a problem.

LetterRip

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FiredrakeRAGE
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LetterRip said:
quote:
Agreed - (of course there is no 2.7 or 2.8 kernel [Smile] ) - Latest Red Hat linux is the 'standard' both with and without 64 bit. Although with Suse Ubuntu, etc. it is becoming more of a problem.
It's not all that large of an issue. If you've used one (or to a lesser extent, used Solaris or Unix), you've used them all.

--Firedrake

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LetterRip
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FiredrakeRAGE,

he is talking hardware vendors. They need to do regression tests etc. The more platforms to test the more expensive, also the more dilute the customers per platform means your engineering expenses per customer are much higher. Of course Windows has this problem too to some extent, but not as diverse as Linux.

LetterRip

[ September 28, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: LetterRip ]

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The Drake
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Right, that's what I'm talking about. From a user's perspective, the Linux installations are largely transparent - but not entirely.

Our company recently switched from one Linux to another, and we've spent months validating and upgrading scripts - upgrading software - etc.

I'm not sure how much relates to the packager, and how much relates to the base revision.

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halfhaggis
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"Linux sucks Apple Juice"

Shouldn't that be Linux sucks penguin blood?
Maybe I've just had too much coffee.

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Richard Dey
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[Big Grin]
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