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Author Topic: Cindy meets McCain
javelin
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Source

Here are some choice quotes from the article:

quote:
Sheehan thanked McCain for meeting with her, but she came away disappointed.

"He tried to tell us what George Bush (search) would have said," Sheehan, who protested at the president's Texas home over the summer, told reporters. "I don't believe he believes what he was telling me."

Headline: "Insane woman reads minds!"

quote:
McCain, R-Ariz., also seemed disappointed in the meeting, which he said had been misrepresented as including some of his constituents. Only one person in her small delegation has ties to the state, and that person no longer lives there.
So, in order to meet with McCain, she lies like the President - President Clinton, of course, since "no one died".

quote:
The two exchanged views about the war, and McCain described the conversation as "a rehash" of opinions already well known. He said he might not have met with Sheehan had he known none of his constituents was in the group.
What? Cindy has no new opinions? She rehashed the same old, umm, "stuff"?

quote:
"He is a warmonger, and I'm not," Sheehan said after meeting with McCain. "I believe this war is not keeping America safer."

"She's entitled to her opinion," McCain said. "We just have fundamental disagreements."

Wow, McCain sure looks, well, sane next to Ms. Not-A-Warmonger.

quote:
Sheehan and McCain had met once before, shortly after the funeral of her son. Sheehan said Tuesday that McCain told her then that her son's death was "like his buddies in Vietnam" and that he feared their deaths were "for nothing." McCain, however, denied he made such a statement.
Once again, emulating President Clinton - but no one died!
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The Drake
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I'm not sure Sheehan is really lying here. I think she or others have really convinced themselves that they heard McCain do this or do that. I'm also not sure they understand what a constituent is, and may be a little bit fuzzy about geography - since Sheehan's Senators are a little further West.
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javelin
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Sorry - I guess if that defense works for Bush, then the "I'm not lying - I'm just wrong." would work for Sheehan too (if true, and I'd guess that it's pretty clearly not [Smile] ). I have to admit though - I very much dislike this woman, and that may be moving the "line" between "wrong" and "lying" for me.

[ September 28, 2005, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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WarrsawPact
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For as long as she's allowed to represent other lefties, they're going to be tarred by the association. I feel kind of bad for Democrats right now.
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Kent
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Warsaw, the kooks are a large constituency that should be pandered to. The democrats are doing so well at outreaching to them, they have also appointed some of them to leadership positions nationally as well as spokespeople. It really boils down to the battle between the Green Party and the Democrats for the kooks, and each of them knows that only one party will be viable in the future.
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javelin
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Well, the Republican party does have it's own kooks, too.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
For as long as she's allowed to represent other lefties, they're going to be tarred by the association. I feel kind of bad for Democrats right now.
While I often look at the Dems and wonder why, why they bend over backwards to pander to groups that take more than they give politically speaking, I think this isn't simply a case of Democrats associating Sheehan with themselves. Republicans are helping.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Well, the Republican party does have it's own kooks, too.
But the Republicans have been better about hiding them in the attic.

Edited to add: Until recently, that is...

[ September 28, 2005, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: A. Alzabo ]

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Kent
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Yes, the Republicans do have kooks too, but they aren't put in leadership or spokesperson positions.
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A. Alzabo
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quote:
Yes, the Republicans do have kooks too, but they aren't put in leadership or spokesperson positions.
They didn't used to be. That started to change when Newt Gingrich became Speaker of the House.
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David Ricardo
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Cindy has definitely "jumped the shark" here.

Still, the contrast is that the Democrats have powerless and pathetic kooks while the Republicans have powerful and corrupt incompents.

I tend to think that the latter is far more dangerous to national security.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
Yes, the Republicans do have kooks too, but they aren't put in leadership or spokesperson positions.
They are just designated as "conservative talk-show radio hosts." [Big Grin]
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The Drake
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Powerful kooks will be better than corrupt incompetents? Hmmm...

I'd have to say no. Incompetents won't be able to advance their agenda of corruption.

But giving the ability for the crazies to advance their agenda? Madness.

[Razz]

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Godot
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quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
Headline: "Insane woman reads minds!"

Jav, where does this kind of vitriol come from?

quote:
So, in order to meet with McCain, she lies like the President...
There was no mention that it was Sheehan who made the appointment to see McCain, so how do you know she's a liar? Is it because you read minds?

quote:
"He is a warmonger, and I'm not," Sheehan said after meeting with McCain. "I believe this war is not keeping America safer."

"She's entitled to her opinion," McCain said. "We just have fundamental disagreements Wow, McCain sure looks, well, sane next to Ms. Not-A-Warmonger."

How does this reflect on anyone's sanity?

I really don't get it. Why all the hate-mongering against her?

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Godot:
quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
Headline: "Insane woman reads minds!"

Jav, where does this kind of vitriol come from?

quote:
So, in order to meet with McCain, she lies like the President...
There was no mention that it was Sheehan who made the appointment to see McCain, so how do you know she's a liar? Is it because you read minds?

quote:
"He is a warmonger, and I'm not," Sheehan said after meeting with McCain. "I believe this war is not keeping America safer."

"She's entitled to her opinion," McCain said. "We just have fundamental disagreements Wow, McCain sure looks, well, sane next to Ms. Not-A-Warmonger."

How does this reflect on anyone's sanity?

I really don't get it. Why all the hate-mongering against her?

Fair enough - and nice "turning the tables"!

Okay, so here's the thing:

quote:
Jav, where does this kind of vitriol come from?
The more I hear about her, the more I dislike her. This is emotion, really, and my comments are inflammatory on the subject mostly because of that. Also, it gets people to read what you wrote [Smile] .

quote:
There was no mention that it was Sheehan who made the appointment to see McCain, so how do you know she's a liar? Is it because you read minds?
Here's where it's implied (along with other articles that say that "Gold Star Mothers.." scheduled these meetings):

quote:
Sheehan's conference with McCain was one of several scheduled this week as part of her campaign to persuade members of Congress to explain the reasons for the war
quote:
How does this reflect on anyone's sanity?
It doesn't, not really. However, I do feel like she's either off her rocker, or very, umm, unintelligent. Here's some quotes from her ( Source) :

quote:
The biggest terrorist is George W. Bush.
quote:
You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine, and you'll stop the terrorism.
quote:
We’re not letting them intimidate us. If we get killed out here, know that the Secret Service killed us.
quote:
My first born was killed violently for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world.
quote:
You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy...You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine
quote:
I don't believe his phony excuses for the war. I want him to tell me why my son died. If he gave the real answer, people in this country would be outraged — if he told people it was to make his buddies rich, that it was about oil.
quote:
Our country has been overtaken by murderous thugs... gangsters who lust after fortunes and power; never caring that their addictions are at the expense of our loved ones, and the blood of innocent people near and far... The US government is now ruled by murderous hypocrites... criminals who should be arrested, charged appropriately, confined behind bars... In their secret hiding places, while celebrating newly won fortunes with their fellow brass, these men must surely congratulate themselves with orgies of carnal pleasure as they mock the dwindling multitudes who are yet so blind as to mistake them for God's devoted servants.
Lastly:

quote:
Why all the hate-mongering against her?
Not sure what you mean. I don't like the woman. I'm showing people why. I'm trying to counter the propoganda that this woman, and those using her, are putting out, by putting it in perspective. Maybe I'm not doing a good enough job separating the dislike of Sheehan with the counter of the propoganda, and for that I apologize. But I'm not trying to get any to hate her - just dismiss her arguments for what they are.
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OhPuhLeez
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quote:
Yes, the Republicans do have kooks too, but they aren't put in leadership or spokesperson positions.
This would be almost funny if it wasn't so freakin' sad.

Are you kidding me?? Checked the Oval Office lately [Wink] ?

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Kent
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You're right. I take everything I said back. Everyone is crazy.
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Gaoics79
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Wow, Sheehan has really become one hell of a train wreck. Maybe we've got her all wrong. Maybe she's really working for the Republicans. Her antics do seem to be making them look better and better.
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TomDavidson
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quote:

Sheehan has really become one hell of a train wreck.

She started out a train wreck. She's a mother who went a little insane from grief and got catapulted into a national spotlight; she's turned her son into a personal symbol for a cause she's dedicated to him, which makes her both desperate and fanatical. It's not particularly healthy.
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Ivan
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Honestly, I think that this is just how she's trying to deal with her kid's death. I just get the impression that she's at such a loss as to how to deal with it that she's gone and started this as a way to distract her from it. What she really needs to do (in my oh-so-uninformed opinion) is just try to cope with the fact that her child is gone forever and nothing she can do can ever change that. It's really a pitiable state she's in right now. I'm kind of saddened when people make fun of her (or take her seriously) because it just feeds in to her illusion that what she's doing is productive or meaningful.

Common, guys. Have a little compassion for the poor woman. Her kid's dead and this is what she's been reduced to. How can you not feel sorry for her?

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Tezcatlipoca
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quote:
which makes her both desperate and fanatical. It's not particularly healthy.
Unless it's one of your three main weapons. No, wait, four weapons, your four main weapons are... I'll come in again.

[Smile]

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javelin
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quote:
Common, guys. Have a little compassion for the poor woman. Her kid's dead and this is what she's been reduced to. How can you not feel sorry for her?
I do feel sorry for her. I also feel disgust for her, though most of it is directed at the many many people who are using her. I don't know what her motivations are, but regardless, the propoganda being spread by her and on her behalf is very very bad.
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KonerAtHome
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quote:
I do feel sorry for her. I also feel disgust for her, though most of it is directed at the many many people who are using her.
Agreed. I stopped following the Sheehan story mostly because I realized that she is being used totaly by a group of people with a political agenda who have will not hesitate to dump her when a more usefull tool presents itself to them. All she does individually is repeat the same arguments again and again and again. She doesn't agree with the "official" reasons for the war, instead accepting that there has to be some other personal reason for it on the part of the President. She has placed the blame entirely on the head of Bush and is unwilling to accept that the quagmire that is Iraq has been brewing for 40 or 50 years, most of her entire life in fact. She will never accept any answer that any political official gives her because she has already accepted her own (or those of the group using her) that the war is all about oil and making political friends rich.

She is an irrational greiving mother. And as such she needs to be treated with respect and sympathy. Sadly that is something that the group of people using her as a spokesperson is not doing.

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javelin
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quote:
She is an irrational greiving mother. And as such she needs to be treated with respect and sympathy.
Is there a time limit on that? I guess I feel like that's been trotted out for quite awhile now, and while I instinctively flinch from saying "enough is enough", I feel like sooner or later, we must be able to say it.
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Redskullvw
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Cindy is worthy of sympathy and honor for her loss and the death of her son.

that said, she is an absolute moron in trying to be a political force she is neither entitled to, nor intelligent enough to espouse. What she says repeatedly damages her own arguments and complaints and makes her appear as a moronic and idiotic savant.

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Lewkowski
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"Well, the Republican party does have it's own kooks, too. "

Republicans have a lot more party discipline, mostly because their base is something to be proud of. The democratic party base is unions and whacko liberals. They get elected by
A. Playing the race card.
B. Trying to scare the poor and seniors.
C. Promising the moon and the stars.
D. Beat on the Republicans.

I mean what liberal canadite says
"I'm for getting religion out of this country!"
or
"I'm for bigger government, more regulation, and higher taxes!"
or
"NAMBLA is a great orginization, if I'm elected I'll make sure they are not discriminated against!"

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Gaoics79
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quote:
She is an irrational greiving mother. And as such she needs to be treated with respect and sympathy. Sadly that is something that the group of people using her as a spokesperson is not doing.
I'm not sure I buy the notion that this is all being done out of grief. I think she believes the crap she's spouting, and may have believed it even before her son died.

But in any case, any pity I had for her stemming from the fact that her son died is long expired. Being a grieving mother gets you a certain amount of emotional capital. She mortgaged her pity already several times, and I've long since foreclosed. The woman is a pathetic imbecile. The kinds of things she has been saying are understandable when you hear them from idealistic kids enrolled in poly sci 101. But this is a grown woman. Enough is enough.

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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Tezcatlipoca:
quote:
which makes her both desperate and fanatical. It's not particularly healthy.
Unless it's one of your three main weapons. No, wait, four weapons, your four main weapons are... I'll come in again.

[Smile]

I didn't expect that [Smile]
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IrishTD
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I'll just say that the other part of this whole saga that bugs me is that she conveniently seems to forget that 1) her son signed up 2-3 years after his HS graduation and 2) Willingly reenlisted knowning that he was going to be sent to Iraq.
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OhPuhLeez
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Until any of you either 1 - has a child or 2 - has LOST that child, how DARE you comment on how she chooses to express her grief and anger.

It's one thing to lose your child in a war that even has merit, another for one that has been on shaky ground since day one.

But no, there is no time limit on grief over the loss of a child.

Shame on all of you.

[ September 29, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: OhPuhLeez ]

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by OhPuhLeez:
Until any of you either 1 - has a child or 2 - has LOST that child, how DARE you comment on how she chooses to express her grief and anger.

It's one thing to lose your child in a war that even has merit, another for one that has been on shaky ground since day one.

But no, there is no time limit on grief over the loss of a child.

Shame on all of you.

Shame on you for using this bogus argument.
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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
Until any of you either 1 - has a child or 2 - has LOST that child, how DARE you comment on how she chooses to express her grief and anger.
And once again, the bogus argument that "you can't know anything you haven't directly experienced" raises its ugly (and false) head...

quote:
It's one thing to lose your child in a war that even has merit, another for one that has been on shaky ground since day one.
First, there is no difference. Second, that's personal opinion - although I mostly agree. Third, if you haven't lost a child of your own to the Iraq war, you're doing the same thing you have just slammed others for doing. (If, on the other hand, you have lost a child to the war, I'm truly very sorry.)

quote:
But no, there is no time limit on grief over the loss of a child.
No, there is not. There is, however, such a thing as respecting your child; there is such a thing as respecting others, as well. She is, as far as I've seen, doing neither. Grief does not excuse disrespect. Indeed, it is in times of strong and turbulent emotion that we most need to be respectful of others.

There is a difference between grief and rudeness. Shame on you for failing to see that.

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javelin
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Welcome back, Lady Starkiller [Smile]
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javelin
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quote:
But no, there is no time limit on grief over the loss of a child.
This, by the way, is a misunderstanding of the question I put forth. My question was about how long we allow the grief over the loss of a child to excuse insane behavior.

quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
quote:
She is an irrational greiving mother. And as such she needs to be treated with respect and sympathy.
Is there a time limit on that? I guess I feel like that's been trotted out for quite awhile now, and while I instinctively flinch from saying "enough is enough", I feel like sooner or later, we must be able to say it.

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Lady Starkiller
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quote:
Welcome back, Lady Starkiller
Thank you!

quote:
My question was about how long we allow the grief over the loss of a child to excuse insane behavior.
Here's the simple answer: you never do. We consider it right to try and keep a grieving woman from killing herself, or doing herself physical harm, or harming her relatives (physically or emotionally). Why do we then say it's acceptable for a grieving woman to turn her rage (NOT grief, and NOT acceptable) on the public at large?

And no, I'm not trying to say that Sheehan is causing emotional trauma in the public as a whole; she is, however, acting less than appropriately.

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Godot
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As attributed to Cindy Sheehan by javelin...

quote:
The biggest terrorist is George W. Bush.
quote:
You get America out of Iraq and Israel out of Palestine, and you'll stop the terrorism.
quote:
We’re not letting them intimidate us. If we get killed out here, know that the Secret Service killed us.
quote:
My first born was killed violently for a neo-con agenda that only benefits a very chosen few in this world.
quote:
You tell me the truth. You tell me that my son died for oil. You tell me that my son died to make your friends rich. You tell me my son died to spread the cancer of Pax Americana, imperialism in the Middle East. You tell me that, you don't tell me my son died for freedom and democracy...You get America out of Iraq, you get Israel out of Palestine
quote:
I don't believe his phony excuses for the war. I want him to tell me why my son died. If he gave the real answer, people in this country would be outraged — if he told people it was to make his buddies rich, that it was about oil.
quote:
Our country has been overtaken by murderous thugs... gangsters who lust after fortunes and power; never caring that their addictions are at the expense of our loved ones, and the blood of innocent people near and far... The US government is now ruled by murderous hypocrites... criminals who should be arrested, charged appropriately, confined behind bars... In their secret hiding places, while celebrating newly won fortunes with their fellow brass, these men must surely congratulate themselves with orgies of carnal pleasure as they mock the dwindling multitudes who are yet so blind as to mistake them for God's devoted servants.

Jav,

If those statements mean to you that someone is insane then I am insane as well because I believe most of those statements are partially, if not wholly, true and accurate. Some are obvious hyperbole in much the same way as you and I both might use "vitriol" to make a point.

Is Cindy Sheehan really such a destructive element to the fabric of the United States that she deserves the hatred directed against her? I think not.

However, there are others in positions of power in our country who ARE such destructive people and are corrupting the very institutions designed to represent and protect us.

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The Drake
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I'd like to see a reporter ask Cindy one question only, "Do you think your son would agree with you?"
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javelin
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quote:
If those statements mean to you that someone is insane then I am insane as well because I believe most of those statements are partially, if not wholly, true and accurate. Some are obvious hyperbole in much the same way as you and I both might use "vitriol" to make a point.
Yes, perhaps "insane" is hyperbole also.

quote:
Is Cindy Sheehan really such a destructive element to the fabric of the United States that she deserves the hatred directed against her? I think not.
I think she's being used to try to get people to abandon our responsibility to Iraq, and is therefore potentially horribly destructive - not only to us, but to Iraq and the Middle East - and possible the rest of the world.

quote:
However, there are others in positions of power in our country who ARE such destructive people and are corrupting the very institutions designed to represent and protect us.
And I'm as vehement in my opposition.
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EDanaII
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@ Godot:
quote:
Is Cindy Sheehan really such a destructive element to the fabric of the United States that she deserves the hatred directed against her? I think not.
Javelin and others have only expressed their disgust, not hatred. Do you see the disparity here?

Ed.

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by EDanaII:
@ Godot:
quote:
Is Cindy Sheehan really such a destructive element to the fabric of the United States that she deserves the hatred directed against her? I think not.
Javelin and others have only expressed their disgust, not hatred. Do you see the disparity here?

Ed.

Thanks Ed - that got lost in my response. I DON'T hate her. I hope no one does.
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