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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » VP Chief of Staff Scooter Libby Indicted

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Author Topic: VP Chief of Staff Scooter Libby Indicted
David Ricardo
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Chief of Staff for the Vice President Scooter Libby was just indicted on 5 counts in the case related to the outing of a CIA NOC agent's identity by White House officials:

2 counts -- Perjury
2 counts -- Making false statements
1 count -- Obstruction of justice

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NSCutler
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And one count of being a 55 year old man called 'Scooter'.
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Godot
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Reminds me of the well-known joke that I will transmorgrify here for topicality:

QUESTION: What do you call the indictment of one member of the Bush administration?

ANSWER: A good start.

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The Drake
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Man, you can't even tell that joke without injecting partisanship?
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Sancselfieme
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Partisanship? This seems like the last defense of a crooked administration. Yes, every time they do something wrong and someone catches them it's a partisan witch hunt. [Roll Eyes] I seriously cannot think of a high level member of this administation who is not heavily suspect of some wrong-doing, and I am a life-long Republican.
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sfallmann
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quote:
Originally posted by Sancselfieme:
Yes, every time they do something wrong and someone catches them it's a partisan witch hunt.

Hmmm...sounds like the Clinton administration. No one from the Bush administration had made such a claim concerning this indictment or the investigation.
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Aerto
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As far as I know, Condi Rice and this guy name George W. Bush are not under the threat of being indicted for criminal wrong-doing. Those are two pretty high ranking officials, I do believe.

(You may think they have done some/many/most/all things wrong, but thats a different debate)

[ October 28, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Aerto ]

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Sancselfieme
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That's why I said "suspected," Aerto.

sfallman, please. Every time a problem has arisen from Harvey Pitt to the energy papers to the question of what Bush exactly knew regarding the 2002 SoftU speech. The accusation of the critics of Bush unduly hounding this admin were pure politics has been the HALLMARK of the public relations campaign from Bush. Go to www.google.com and search for Bush admin. quotes along the lines of "playing politics" "use this situation for political bickering" etc.

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Godot
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
Man, you can't even tell that joke without injecting partisanship?

I don't always feel the need to be non-partisan. I am partisan. I believe the Bush administration has been the most destructive administration for the United States. Perhaps that sneaks out once in a while. [Wink]
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sfallmann
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I did what you asked there, bub. I searched with "bush admin playing politics". The results coming back are accusations made against the Bush administration for "playing politics".

KR Washington Bureau | 04/15/2005 | Bush administration ...
The Bush administration should stop playing politics with this critical report."
A senior State Department official, speaking on condition of anonymity ...
www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/11407689.htm - 21k - Cached - Similar pages

The Lies of George W. Bush
She was caught playing politics. But all is forgiven, and now let's second the
Hutchison ... But that goal would be totally shot if the Bush administration ...
www.bushlies.com/ - 75k - Oct 26, 2005 - Cached - Similar pages

National Conservation Groups Ask Bush Administration to Stop ...
... groups today urged the Bush administration to stop playing politics with the
... “The Bush administration is proving that it is not above playing ...
www.sierraclub.org/pressroom/releases/pr2005-10-19.asp - 32k - Oct 26, 2005


That's a far cry from your initial statement which implied that Bush administration officials had made statements claiming they were the object of a partisan witch hunt concerning this investigation.
That has not happened. No one from the Bush administration has claimed that this investigation has been a witch hunt. Link a quote to prove otherwise.

Bush supporters do not equal the Bush administration. Many of them claim that he's been a target of partisan attacks, but those are usually referring to partisan attacks and misrepresentations by the media.

Try again.

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The Drake
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The Drake's non-partisan joke hour.

quote:
QUESTION: What do you call the indictment of a politician?

ANSWER: A good start.


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RickyB
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We wish you a merry Fitzmas [Big Grin]
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Sancselfieme
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sfallman, funny, I ran the exact same search you did and I noticed you left out the majority of the top results, in which the Bush admin. is consistently accusing OTHERS of "playing politics."

http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/sciencewars/
http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=59
http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1212-12.htm


Those are just the very top 3 results, it is clear you purposefully did not post them, and I am dissappointed in your intellectual dishonesty. It is clear that from your posts thus far here you are shaping up to be a true partisan, as you are not open to any legitimate criticism of the Bush administration that I have seen in any of your contributions on this forum. Your rude, confrontational attitude here and in other threads also lend support to this, and given your posting style I am wondering if Baldar has returned under yet AGAIN another pseudonym.

[ October 28, 2005, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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The Drake
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I'm disturbed by the cherry-picking of the links. Leave it at that.

Sanc, isn't it true however that whenever any politician is accused of wrongdoing by the opposition party, they respond by calling it politically motivated?

Examples: Bill Clinton, Tom DeLay, Richard Nixon, Andrew Jackson...

Sometimes, the attackers are politically motivated. Other times, the target is crooked. Usually, it is both.

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Sancselfieme
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I would say most of the time in the news releases that I have noted, most politicians tend to deal with the specific allegations they are faced with not the possible motivations of their accusers. This seems to be more unique to the Bush administation than any other Presidency I have witnessed in my 64 years of life.
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sfallmann
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quote:
Originally posted by Sancselfieme:
sfallman, funny, I ran the exact same search you did and I noticed you left out the majority of the top results, in which the Bush admin. is consistently accusing OTHERS of "playing politics."

http://www.csicop.org/doubtandabout/sciencewars/
http://www.politicalgateway.com/main/columns/read.html?col=59
http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1212-12.htm


Those are just the very top 3 results, it is clear you purposefully did not post them, and I am dissappointed in your intellectual dishonesty. It is clear that from your posts thus far here you are shaping up to be a true partisan, as you are not open to any legitimate criticism of the Bush administration that I have seen in any of your contributions on this forum. Your rude, confrontational attitude here and in other threads also lend support to this, and given your posting style I am wondering if Baldar has returned under yet AGAIN another pseudonym.

Wow - that's a dirty lie. I have the top three results posted from the Google search (like you challenged me to). Your first link is the fourth listed when you do the search, the other two aren't even on the first page, and I'm intellectually dishonest? In fact, to drive the point home even further, your three links also do not appear when searching with Yahoo or msn. Hell - I would have done the whole page, but I doubt it was necessary since I stated my exact search criteria. Anyone could verify it.

I'm a partisan because I challenge your baseless accusations?

"you are not open to any legitimate criticism of the Bush administration that I have seen in any of your contributions on this forum."

Define legitimate.
If by legitimate you mean criticism based on documented fact then I will not challenge it. If instead by legitimate you mean criticisms based on what you believe (not the same as "facts") then I'll challenge you every time.

I don't post here often. There's no need to be so hostile just because I disagree with you. And there's no need to resort to name calling and bullying when the argument doesn't go your way. Stick to the facts and try to show the maturity someone of 64 years should be displaying.

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Sancselfieme
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As I predicted, you have a propensity to be knowingly-dishonest. Point of fact, those links are the first 3 links that came up when I ran that search, and I am sure you saw them because I saw your links, BELOW THEM. If necessary I can post a screenshot of it, but I know that other members here who even bother with this trivial argument can run the search themselves.

Your abusive tone and insulting rhetoric convinces me you really are Baldar returned. I guess "Ron" wasn't enough fun for you, eh? It was too obvious Baldar, in less than 18 posts you managed to insult over 8 different members of this board and spew the same kind of partisan tripe that Baldar did, not to mention the posting style is indentical, and the way you denied it just proves it further. I would ask OrneryMod to confirm it but the last time you did this you used proxy IP addresses. This must be a great game for you.

[ October 29, 2005, 02:59 AM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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Mariner
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Um, Sanc? I just ran the search, and sfallman's links were #s 1, 3, and 5. Out of your three links, the psicop one was #6, and the other two weren't in the top 20. Maybe both of you need to stop accusing each other of lying and having hidden agendas and actually look to see what the problem is.

Stop with the insults and accusations people. It's not that difficult to check ths out yourself rather than start spouting conspiracy theories.

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velcro
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I ran the same searches, and got different results. I tried "bush administration playing politics" as a phrase, i.e. with quotes around the whole phrase, and also as individual terms.

In general, most of what I saw accuses Bush of playing politics (including the third link that Sanc gave).

The point is, web searches are not especially repeatable. I would also venture to say that picking the first few google hits is only valid for rebutting a statement that something NEVER happens. Does the Bush administration claim that criticism is politically motivated? Sure, sometimes. I don't think anyone would argue against that, especially since Sanc gave one example. However, attempting to use google to quantify that behavior, especially compared to other administrations, is not worth discussing.

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Sancselfieme
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Admittedly, I ran the exact same search again and came up with different results, with my links further down the page and only one of his. But I do not retract my statements about sfallman, through his mere 18 posts here he has immediately become nasty, partisan and stylized in such a way that I am sure it is Baldar returned, which would not be unwarranted considering he did it at least once already.
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The Drake
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quote:
Originally posted by Sancselfieme:
I would say most of the time in the news releases that I have noted, most politicians tend to deal with the specific allegations they are faced with not the possible motivations of their accusers. This seems to be more unique to the Bush administation than any other Presidency I have witnessed in my 64 years of life.

We have different perceptions. I remember hearing over and over again about how Whitewater and Ken Starr were politically motivated. This was put out by the First Lady, the White House press secretary, etc.

Now, whether it is more common in this White House? That's hard to prove one way or the other. I also think that you're lumping other Republicans onto that bandwagon, like Tom DeLay - who has nothing to do with the Administration.

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Sancselfieme
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No, I am talking about the Harvey Pitt issue, I am talking about the response to criticisms that the Bush admin. manipulated the 9-11 commission's resources, I am talking about the response when most of Congress questioned why a "intelligence Czar" was needed when that IS what the NSA (Rice's old job) does. I am talking about all the responses to criticisms of the war effort and what kind of domestic policy changes were needed after 9-11. I am talking about the way they stifle opposition to their appointees. I am talking about the way they accuse anyone of trying to get certain documents that shouldn't be classified as fishing for political ammunition. No, I was very critical of Clinton, and I consider him to be one of our worst Presidents, but no prior administration in my recollecting has used this strategy as much as the Bush administration.

I never even mentioned Delay, it seems that is your own logical fallacy of assuming I cannot tell the difference between the Congress and the White House.

[ October 29, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: Sancselfieme ]

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The Drake
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My apologies. I fabricated DeLay into the picture, though not intentionally.

I guess we're at a bit of an impasse, since it is about perception and statistics - not easy to refute with anything concrete. I could dig up anecdotes, but it wouldn't prove anything. My perception is that all politicians call their accuser's motivations into question as part of their denials.

I think people in general get upset about that, when they feel that the accusers are correct.

The fact is, that every time any politician makes an accusation, they ARE by definition playing politics.

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