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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Israel should move to europe! (Page 3)

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Author Topic: Israel should move to europe!
RickyB
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Ah, just what the discussion needed...some much needed depth and nuance [Big Grin]

Drewmie - "the past "mistake" was a voluntary act on the part of Israelis to move into the place."

Soooo, they should have stayed in Europe and waited for the nazis, yes? Stayed in Muslim countries and merrily accepted second class status and the occasional murderous riot?


Pelegius - You can't claim you didn't say what you did. You compared "A Jewish state" to "A Christian or Buddhist one". This means you see being Jewish as a religion, not a nationality.

Also, for there to be a European Union, there first need to be nation states. Only when nation states mature, can they evolve to a union. In Europe, this only happened after a millenium and a half of incessant bloodshed.

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Hannibal
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currection...
It is in the PROCESS of happening after a milleniom and a half of bloodshed.

many of the more powerfull countries like french, germany, and england dont want (justifiably if you ask me) to get unified with weaker countries like poland and greece

Is there any country in the world which is NOT a nation state? even the USA is a nation state

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drewmie
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quote:
RickyB wrote: This means you see being Jewish as a religion, not a nationality.
Wrong. Jewishness is a religion AND a race AND a nationality, depending on the context. What is wrong with saying that America immorally stripped land from natives and Mexicans, AND that it should stay that way in spite of the past? Does that take away the present legitimacy of America? Only if you believe that the past makes a difference to such things, which you and Hannibal obviously do (e.g. your comments about Jews being there centuries before, etc). But don't impose that sunk-cost morality on our arguments. It doesn't apply.
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Pelegius
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Hannibal, yes actually, there are. The U.S. is not a nation-state, despite your claims, nor is Switzerland or Russia, or Canada or... you get my point. However, that does not make these states any better or worse than states such as Israel or Iceland that are dominated by a single nation. States must exist, as a transition between city-states and unions, but nation-states do not posses any form of august permanence as you seem to suggest.
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KidA
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quote:
Wrong. Jewishness is a religion AND a race AND a nationality, depending on the context.
There is no "Jewish race."
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Hannibal
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ok lets go down to the base line here
how do you define a "nation state"?

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Pelegius
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A nation-state is a state dominated by a single nation to the extent that the identity of the state is inseparable from the identity of the the nation. Thus, the U.S. is not a nation-state, because, here in my hometown there are two very distinct ethnicities, languages, and cultures, which may, and do, blend to a great degree but are still independent from one another. Russia is not a nation-state because the nation of the Slavic peoples is not the nation of the Tartars. Iraq is a perfect example of not being a nation-state, as the nation of the Kurds is not the nation of the Arabs. Israel is actually only a nation-state is Palestine is considered a separate state. Most true nation-states are islands, such as Iceland (which has, in the past, actively striven to keep its nordic heritage and ethnic background undiluted), and I predict that nation-states will soon disappear, as the accelerated pace of cultural diffusion does its work. This is inevitable, and also healthy, as it prevents cultural stagnation. We must, however, not allow our respective heritages to disappear, if they lie dormant most of the time. To be Dutch does not require that one were wooden shoes, but it does require that one remember that, in the past, your ancestors did.
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Adam Masterman
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Just to lighten the mood a little, y'all seem to have missed the funniest quip I've heard on Ornery in months:

quote:
and aside to new zealand, which is an island that never seen a conflict in its history besides the battles of Middle Earth
[Big Grin]
well done, sir!

carry on.

Adam

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RickyB
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Well, those and the ones where the maoris got whooped by the white man and his cargo...
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Pelegius
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Both World wars, the Korean conflict and several regional wars included NZ troops.
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Hannibal
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10x Adam, I aim to please.

actually I am a jokster usually, but thats the first real good one that i managed to have here.

Sorry Pelegius, Israel is not a nation state then, there are loads of different nations in israel, not only in the greater context of jews, muslim arab israelis, chirstian arab israelis, druze, but also in the contect of russian jews, persian jews, morrocean jews, american jews, german jews.... (you get the point) allthoush each of those nations have jews as a suffix in their names, they are completely different in terms of culture, apearence and behavior.

but, "outer breeding" which was a taboo untill recently, is a fashion thats growing more and more

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RickyB
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Hannibal, those aren't "nations". Those are sub-communities (the precise term elludes me for some reason). Also, you are really exagggerating the differences between them, especially nowadays. Now the differences are down mostly to traditional dishes.
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Hannibal
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yes? Have you visited Hadera or Ashdod lately?
Or Bnei Braq?
how come the USA is not a nation state? sure there are blacks, whites, etc but they are all proud americans, they whould not have agreed that 30 million mexicans will suddenly become americans too.

I really dont see the point here

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RickyB
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I lived in Bnei Braq for several years, and I've been to both Ashdod and Hadera. The Orthodox and some Russians are the only sects (that's not the word I was looking for either) that are truly separate from the rest of Israelis.
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Ben
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Response to Iran's demand that Israel should be moved to Europe:

Okay, but you have to take France

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Ben:
Response to Iran's demand that Israel should be moved to Europe:

Okay, but you have to take France

Beautiful.
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velcro
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Pelegius,

What community would accept Israel? Up until last year or so, they were excluded from most UN committees because they were not part of a regional sub-group. They couldn't even get into the Red Cross (is Syria still holding that up?). I agree that communities of nations are better than nation states. But when one nation (the Jewish nation, with or without a state) has been persecuted with little or no support from all the other nations of the world, it needs a state for its safety and preservation. Maybe in 100 years, if anti-Semitism disappears, no Jewish state will be necessary. But until then I do not think it is paranoid for Jews to want a rock-solid refuge in a sometimes antagonistic world.

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RickyB
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No, we got into the RC. Had to alter the symbo of Red Magen David to do it, but we got in. Fockin Syrians. What a joke.
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Pelegius
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Actualy, this goes back to my origional point that, when the plans were being drawn for Israel, it should have been located in a less anti-semtic area.
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Richard Dey
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KidA proposes:

There is no "Jewish race."

No-no, KidA, Hitler was nowhere near that successful. By my definition, 'a chosen race' (even if so self-styled) is a race. Fortunately, the pretense is evaporating as we contend with our own Fundamentalista who hold that rebuilding the temple will bring us all Armageddon and their eternal joy.

As I suggested to Hannibal at some point, it is a shame that the Israeli state came along when it did. Had it not, the Jews of Europe would have settled in America and all this inbreeding and infraracial wholesaling would have disappeared.

Cripes, when I pointed out Roosevelt's rationale for turning back Jews -- not because they were religionists or racists but because they were Germans, everybody jumped all over me!

You can't have it both ways, guys. Americans aren't intimidated by charges of 'anti-Semitism' anymore. It was a real-estate trick, remember?

If it's the indelicacy of the term 'race' that's troubling you, Kid, we may have a Diversity Officer at Ornery who can comfort you ... [Big Grin] , but my Injun ancestors don't mind being called a race, my Yankee ancestors don't mind being called a race. Cripes, my drinking buddies don't mind being called a race -- and there's no two of the same hue, politic, or religion. (I'm not all sure we all share the same sex [Big Grin] !) I am of the ultimate race, that which all races seek to become: the Mongrel Race.

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RickyB
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If you had the slightest notion of the subject you feel so confident expounding on, Pelegius, you would have known that it was actually proposed and debated to create the Jewish homeland in "Uganda" (actually a part in modern-day Kenya). It didn't fly. Why? Because annoying as our presence in this part of the world happens to be (at least to some), we didn't actually pick it out of a hat. There's a reason we're here of all places, and a reason we're so damn insistent about it.

There's a reason Jeruslaem had a Jewish majority back in 1850, 28 years before the first Zionist colony and a full 10 years before the first Jewish neighborhood outside the walls.

Richard - With all due respect, you're woefully misinformed, at best. WE never, ever used the term "race" about ourselves. Chosen PEOPLE. "Am", in Hebrew, meaning nation. Not race. So no, there is no Jewish race, and the ravings of the millenialists and dispensationalists don't make it so any more than your erroneous little witticism does.

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WarrsawPact
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The "chosen race"/"chosen generation" thing was actually Peter talking to Christians, IIRC.
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Pelegius
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Ricky, I am aware that the location of Israel was not choosen from "out of the blue," but, if we were all going to insist upon establishing nation-states in our historic homelands, then we would all live in Uganda indeed. The nation-state of Israel is as valid an entity ass any other nation-state, but no more so.
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