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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » France, lacking military, goes nuclear. (Page 2)

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Author Topic: France, lacking military, goes nuclear.
javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
javelin, flydye. WPs post clearly, by its own admission, lists the Navy, Air Force, National Gaurd and Marines as well as the Army. Acording to his post, the Army is 512,400 men strong, not 1.5 million. How is it possible to look at the same post and draw such different numbers from it?

quote:
United States Active Duty Personnel, FY 2005

Air Force - 359,300
Navy - 362,941
Marines - 178,000
Army - 512,400


Because we read the whole post?
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javelin
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quote:
I think javelin quickly eyed the US Army numbers, then posted 1.5 million (slight different from 1.2 million, jav).
True, sorry.
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Hannibal
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standing up there in the USA, and saying that the france inst a superpower is not fair

france can easilly take on any other country in the world besides the USA, and maybe china.
(and israel ofcourse [Wink] )

there are very few countries in the world who make their large millitary war machines by themselves, and france is one of those countries.

i wonder if there might be some french guy here who will come and gloat how big the french millitary is.

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WarrsawPact
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Well, I'd like that, but let's be realistic.

They are a power. One of the bigger ones, to be sure. They do indeed have a self-made air force and they make some fairly nice guns (FAMAS, anyone?). But when it comes down to who really has great guns and the numbers and flexibility to make them count, the US military is the only remaining superpower.

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Pelegius
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Yes, there is a big difference between saying that France's military is smaller than the U.S.'s and saying that it doesn't have one.

Javelin, I only ever said "Army" never "Military."

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
Yes, there is a big difference between saying that France's military is smaller than the U.S.'s and saying that it doesn't have one.

Javelin, I only ever said "Army" never "Military."

(a) Who said that France didn't have a military?; and
(b) Where did I imply that you said "Military" - since it seems rather "in your face" clear that I was counting the Army (and, as WP correctly pointed out, I was off by a bit less than 300,000)

I find your post to be mind-boggingly, Pelegius.

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WarrsawPact
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Okay, let's just use the French Army then.

They employ approximately 138,000 personnel, counting the several "Marine" forces.

The US Army employs 1.21 million personnel, not counting civilian assets. If we included our Marine forces like France does, you can inflate that number by 227,317 for a total of 1,438,159. That's almost 10 and a half times as many personnel.

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Pelegius
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javelin, read the title.

WP, where did you get that number? Wikipedia states that "As of fiscal year 2004 (FY04), it consisted of 485,500 soldiers."

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Hannibal
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i find it very hard to believe that the israeli regular army is bigger then the french regular army

you are surely mistaken some where in your calculations.

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javelin
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Actual Wiki Article on the Military of France

quote:

Manpower

The total number of military personnel is approximately 300,000. However, 100,000 of these are in the Gendarmerie, and thus a vast majority of these 100,000 are used in everyday law enforcement operation inside France and are not fit for external operations. Elements of the Gendarmerie are however present in all French external operations, providing troops specialised in order enforcement and military police.

Previously, France relied a great deal on conscription to provide manpower to its armies, with only a minority of career soldiers. Following from the Algerian War of Independence, the use of non-volunteer draftees in foreign operations was ended; if their unit is called for duty in war zones, draftees are now offered the choice between requesting a transfer to another unit or volunteering for the mission. In 1996, President Jacques Chirac's government announced the end of conscription; in 2001, conscription was ended. However, young people must still register for possible conscription should the events call for it, with the cosmetic change that now females must register as well.

Is it so hard to provide your source, Pelegius?

[ January 22, 2006, 04:58 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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WarrsawPact
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He was asking me where I got my numbers on the size of the US Army.

A number closer to yours was released by the DoD in September 2005:
Active Duty Military Personel Strengths listed total active duty Army personnel as 492,728.

One of my main sources, via GlobalSecurity.org, is the amount for which Congress has authorized the Department of Defense, FY 2005 forward through 2009. Remember, we're retaining and recruiting, which means the same numbers for FY 2004 quoted at wikipedia are outdated. We're never exactly at the numbers I quoted above, of course, but it is a very close number anyway.

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Jesse
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So....the active duty French army is roughly one quarter the size of the active duty US army.

Gotcha.

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Pelegius
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That makes sense.
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WarrsawPact
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Jesse - Something might not be getting through here.

First of all, at very least include the mobilized Guard and Reserve, and also the Marine Corps, since that would be more akin to the "French Army." The "French Army" is like a combined US Army and USMC (particulary in that it has to fulfill both roles), with no "reserve" or "guard" forces because one of the chief jobs of the regular "French Army" is to perform the same tasks for which our Reserve and Guard units are trained.

So even if I granted that non-active Reserve and Guard units didn't count, we're still talking about 848,559 personnel currently authorized for active duty in the US Army and Marine Corps.
Compare that number again to the current active French forces.

And counting out the non-mobilized Guard and Reserve units of the US entirely is ridiculous, so I should't have to entertain that number in the first place.

[ January 22, 2006, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: WarrsawPact ]

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Jesse
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They aren't active duty standing military WP.

Sorry.

What's the size of the Swiss army? I'll bet you dimes to doughnuts that if I asked you that question prior to this discussion, you wouldn't include every able bodied Swiss male 18-55.

Pelegius made a very simple claim, that the French army was roughly 1/4th the size of the US army, and any reasonable person who wasn't trying to score points instead of make them would assume that means the standing active duty Army. If he had made a broader claim you would have an argument with merit, but he didn't.

It goes without saying that our Navy is vastly superior, in terms of manpower and equipment, that our total armed forces are far more than four times the size of Frances, and that our population is MUCH more than twice that of France.


It's a bit of a silly argument, anyway.

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WarrsawPact
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Not really. The mobilized Guard and Reserve are by definition on active duty, and since the "French Army" does the respective jobs of the US Army and US Marine Corps, it's only patently fair to include all those forces. "Scoring points" is trying to play games with the word "army," and whoever told Pelegius that 1/4 statistic undoubtedly knew it.
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Pelegius
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I told myself that, based on three seconds of studying the subject, i.e. looking at "U.S. Army" and "French Army" on Wikipedia.
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flydye45
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Do the French have the infrastructure to move a large portion of their military into a needed area in a timely fashion? I think it unlikely.

Lacking that capability, are they a world player in more then speaking cleverly at seminars? ...

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Pelegius
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I would say yes. They are a nuclear power with a veto in the U.N. Besides which if they are attacked, the U.S. and other Nato powers must come to their aid. Also, their economy is not a small player.
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Hannibal
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yes flydye they do.


correction :
the got a single aircraft carrier it can carry 40 aircraft, thats a reasonable amount to cause damage world wide

[ January 23, 2006, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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flydye45
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A single (non working last I heard) aircraft carrier is able to carry 40-80 pilots. A true "superpower" has the ability to logistically move several battalions on reasonably short notice.

Pakistan has the ability to move a nuke and do a lot of damage as well. Should we bequeth the title of "superpower" on them as well?

I do get what you are saying. I just am observing that there is a few orders of magnitude between France and even the Soviets at their height, much less the U.S. Between their lack of numbers, logistical infrastructure (how sweet, they are waiting for their allies to fight for them...AGAIN Pel [Wink] ), and their state of "sophistication" (edited to add, lack of desire to fight), I would put them below Israel as a military.

[ January 23, 2006, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: flydye45 ]

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Hannibal
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"I would put them below Israel as a military."

ofcourse, i whould to. [Smile]

unfortionatly we have a huge army in comparison to our size. plus our technology is very advanced. the IAF takes on the european airforces regularly and defeats them.
a year ago, the IAF trained against the famous loftwafa, it was very symbolical that we creamed them.

ok, so the USA is a superpower, but the french are a power to (god i hate talking about powers because i study discrete mathematics), they can keep a steady presence of 40 aircrafts away from home. israel cant do that.

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Joe Schmoe
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quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:
"I would put them below Israel as a military."

ofcourse, i whould to. [Smile]

unfortionatly we have a huge army in comparison to our size. plus our technology is very advanced. the IAF takes on the european airforces regularly and defeats them.
a year ago, the IAF trained against the famous loftwafa, it was very symbolical that we creamed them.

Thats no surprise. Way I hear it your pilots are better than USA's as well and win mock battles when the equipment is equal.
quote:
Originally posted by Hannibal:

ok, so the USA is a superpower, but the french are a power to (god i hate talking about powers because i study discrete mathematics), they can keep a steady presence of 40 aircrafts away from home. israel cant do that.

Sure the french can do that, but the pilots don't have near the flight time and training of israeli pilots. They'd only really be effective against an equally poorly trained AF or a non existant one. At least thats the way I hear it from my military friends.
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Omega M.
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This speech seems like a non-event. Chirac seems to have said that France will retaliate if attacked by a terrorist group, and that "This response could be a conventional one. It could also be of a different kind." He also referred to weapons of mass destruction right after terrorists, which suggests that the line about the "different" response was meant to intimidate those with weapons of mass destruction. Why would any nation with nuclear weapons rule out the possibility of using them in response to a nuclear attack or a sufficiently lethal (deaths in the hundreds of thousands, say) chemical/biological attack?
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flydye45
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Sure, it's a "non event" except that if Bush gave a speech like this, he would be raked over the coals; a born again Reagan slapping the Big Red Button because he wants the nurse to bring him a glass of water.

How exactly does that work? AQ takes some people from Saudi and hits the Eiffel Tower. Is it fair to hit Saudi? Chirac is being given a HUGE pass here, something Bush would never get.

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Hannibal
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because everybody knows that the french will not act when the time comes [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

and this is just major noise but no action?

@Joe

nobody uses identical fighters, even when the IAF fights the USAF and both armies use F-15 its not the same plane, because the americans use classified systems they claim are the best in the world, and israel uses calssified systems of her own claimed to be the best in the world.
the engine is the same,the CADC (central air data computer) is the same, but after that, the Radar, and electronics warfare are of different design. there is also a slight difference in the armaments - the israeli F-15 use the Python V.

[ January 24, 2006, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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WarrsawPact
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Omega - It was a non-event in the West. It was probably not a non-event in the leadership of terror-sponsoring states, which is where most of it was likey directed. The idea of a nuclear response to a sufficiently spectacular attack can even get crazy people to wake up a bit.

Whether or not the actual attackers are Saudi is not the concern. The question is if a state ordered the attack, or otherwise significantly contributed to the execution of the attack.

I actually think the French would be forced to act if someone gave them a 9/11 or 3/11 or 7/7 treatment.

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Pelegius
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flydye, it is possible to be a significant power without being a superpower. No one has claimed that France is a superpower, only that it is a power. Besides which, if power were only military, China would be more powerful than the U.S.
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FiredrakeRAGE
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Pelegius -

Only if it was pure numbers that we counted, not technical exellence.

--Firedrake

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flydye45
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Using that analogy, the Zulu were more powerful then the British in South Africa during the war. After all, they had more troops.
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WarrsawPact
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Yeah. China can't get all those troops across to Formosa, much less the US. Meanwhile, the US projects its power all around the globe.
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Harmony
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Hello,

I am french ! And it seems I'm less interested in my own country army than you all are. I don't know the figures but I can check for you on french sites and translate.
I've hesitated to post again because I sometimes feel offended when you talk about France & French people. I can't really understand what allow you to say you hate me. Hannibal said " we hate french". Wh

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Harmony
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Sorry, I hit the wrong key.
Anyway, when I have the figures, I let you know.

Regards,
Harmony

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Harmony -

I know several French people. They are friends of my family. I also have some extensive knowledge of Europe. I cannot speak for the others, but I do not hate all of the French people. I do not, however, like most of the French policies. The domestic policies smack of socialism and appeasement. The international policies of the French seem to revolve around corruption, appeasement and impotence.

Sometimes it is hard to divorce the people of a country from the government of a country. With a representative government, they are, in fact, not completely separate. One cannot hold up the government of any country as a representative of a specific individual. A good portion of the world dislikes the policies of the Bush Administration. That does not translate into a dislike of Americans (most of the time).

--Firedrake

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Harmony
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There you are :
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/sites/defense/decouverte/le_ministere/organigramme/organigramme_du_ministere_de_la_defense/

Click on the org chart pdf
At the end of the org chart, you have the headcount. I guess it's the correct one for it's on the ministry of defence site.
Have fun
Harmony

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Harmony
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FiredrakeRage,

I understand that you don't like the french policy. I have no pb with that. But when someone says I hate the french because he doesn't like the statement of the french government, then I have a pb.
I do have american friends too and they are great, friendly and always trying to help.
Regarding the french political class : french people are fed up with these guys. We do not trust them or most of them. They have been on the french political scene for a long time and it's a kind of "sclerose" (is it correct ?)
Everyone in france says that we're struggling against unemployment, social security deficit, education, reasearch and that we need to reform some of our rules. But then, when a reform is proposed, everyone is in the street because some of their privileges are cut ! It's a kind of endless pb.
Ok I stop otherwise you will get bored soon ;-)
Harmony

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Harmony -

Do you have a link for that comment of Hannibal's? I'd like to see it in context. As usual, the Ornery search function has failed me.

Perhaps I will essay some google-fu sometime tomorrow. For now, I need sleep.

--Firedrake

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Hannibal
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Ever since you defeated Brasil in 1998 i hate the french.


seriously though, i have a tendency to think in my language when i write here (i guess the veterans here notice that with ease). the word hate is used quite cheaply and its weight is less then you presive.
i dont hate the french, i dislike the fact that they are anti israeli in their decisions, that they are guided by the arab oil. every once in a while the french tend to do some really aggravating things when it concerns my country Israel.

so Harmony, excuse me i did not mean to offend you, but i dont like the french agenda.

i dont remmember where exactly did i write that thing, but i do remmeber that i have, so i am sorry. I think I used the phrase to say that even though people on this site dont like the french, they have to admit that france is a super power.

one last thing, the reason you are not interested so much in your army is probably because you are a woman? no shobinism intended.

[ January 25, 2006, 06:17 AM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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tonylovern
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we really are just complaining about french leaders when we french bash here. i dont think theres a poster here that would hold the french people accountable for thier governments actions, or if they did they would have to accept accountability for all of our own politicians.

please dont let a little attitude deter you, if anything, this board could use more french posters, more afghani, and chinese posters too. we all have opinions, and usually our opinions are tempered by our geography. getting a purely french opinion on french politics would be refreshing.

(edited to correct some of my fat fingered spelling)

[ January 25, 2006, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: tonylovern ]

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Harmony
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It's ok guys !
If you are complaining about french leaders, so we are ! Years go by, and the situation seems to be getting worse, or at least not getting better.
The last french elections (presidential) were a shame for all of us. Last turn of the election, we were offered the choice between "extreme droite" (extreme right... don't know the right translation) and Mr Chirac (who had pb with justice and who avoided to face the justice thank's to the election). But we (french) are responsible for that. We are responsible of the one we put on the "throne" !
Yes, Hannibal, I'm a woman and I love peace &... harmony (!) even though I admit it's important to have an army able to defend the country and/or allies if needed. Do you leave in Israel ? I really hope that in a near future israeli mothers would not tremble for their kids.

Regarding the topic of this post... I don't think Mr Chirac said something revolutionary regarding nuclear weapons. As the chief of the army, I think he wanted to say to his overactive minister Nicolas Sarkozy and his prime minister who both "took over him" at the end of 2005 due to his absence for health reasons "I'm still the boss, don't kill me too quickly !"

Sorry for 1998 but in order to cheer you up click here http://www.chez.com/patrickland/FCMMSt2.html

harmony

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