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Author Topic: So Much For Democracy
Godot
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Well, it was nice while it lasted. The founding Fathers had a good idea, but that's the way it goes. All it took was a few years of Republican majority before they sold us all down the river, again.

I'm harking back to those long ago days when the President had to operate under the restrictions placed upon him by the Constitution (yep, domestic spying).

The Republicans refuse to have any investigation of Bush's NSA spying activities. And if that isn't egregious enough, now they are creating a bill that would exempt Bush's spy program from the FISA court. Are these Republicans Americans? They make me physically ill. There seems to be no ethical boundary they will not cross.

Say bye-bye to what little oversight and Democracy was left under the Republican rule; hello Imperial Presidency. We are so screwed!

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msquared
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Thanks for the hyperbole. [Roll Eyes]

Not that I am a big fan of how the President has handled this, but the area is grey at best.

One of the partys has to be outside the US so calling it domestic is questionable. The President has broad powers when it comes to defending the country.

I am sure people said the same thing when Lincoln suspended Habeas Corpus back during the Civil War and that did not lead to the downfall of the country.

The fact that congress passed a law that a previous President signed does not make that law constitutional. Bush feels that Carter gave away an inherent power of the position and that he should not have been able to do so.

I wish Bush had done two things. First, declare war on the terrorist. This should have been done in the weeks after 9/11. And I do not mean just use rhetoric. I mean have Congress back up everything with a for real declaration. That would make many of the things he has done more justifiable.

Second, fight the FISA law in court. If he thinks it violates his powers as President, challange it. Get it overturned.

msquared

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Godot
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How is this hyperbole? He can spy on anyone he wants to simply because he wants to with no oversight. The only safequard (and it's a dubious one at best) was the FISA court and he side-stepped THAT!

If you aren't afraid for your rights and liberties because Bush is so noble and honest, that's fine, roll over, but neither you nor ANY President has the right to impinge on my constitutional protections.

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msquared
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The point is that you may not have the protections you think you have.

The FISA court may be unconstitutional.

The Constitution was not meant to be a death warrant for the people. It has been changed in the past and will be changed in the future. Powers ebb and flow between the branches of the governement.

Look at what FDR did back in WWII to the Japanesse American's? Lincoln during the Civil War.

I am not saying not to be concerned. I am saying that it may not be the end of the US as we know it. That is why I say your statement is hyperbole.

msquared

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Daruma28
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What hyperbole? This hyperbole:

quote:
All it took was a few years of Republican majority before they sold us all down the river, again.
It makes you look like nothing more than a Democrat hack and a tool.

Neither party has a monopoly on abrogating constitutional rights for the sake of strengthening the power of a centralized Federal Government and entrenching themselves into incumbency. D or R, in the long run there has been no real difference in terms of taking this country further and further from the original intent of the founding fathers.

To pretend one party is doing it while the other is not only demonstrates one's status as a useful idiot for partisan political gamesmanship.

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Godot
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Daruma,

Despite your personal attacks, I will respond, though not in kind.

I believe what I said is absolutely true and is not in the least hyperbole. I am an independent. I voted for Nader in 2000 and voted against Bush in 2004 after seeing how he did things.

Up until the last six years I believed there wasn't a hairs-breadth difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. Now seeing how the Republican leadership (including Bush) handle wars, the environment, governmental spending, cronyism, torture, domestic spying, lack of transparency, lying, and the myriad of ethical issues that they came down on the wrong side of, I feel much more sympatico with the Democrats.

If the Reps run Russ Feingold or someone like him in 2008, I'd be heavily inclined to vote for him even over an independent candidate. And it's not the great number of good and true rank-and-file Republican party members that I have a problem with, only the leadership in our government.

Daruma: "To pretend one party is doing it while the other is not only demonstrates one's status as a useful idiot for partisan political gamesmanship."

Both parties may do it, but the Republicans have held and continue to hold the reins. They bear the bulk of the responsibility for the wrongs that have been done and continue to be done.

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msquared
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Godot

You have not responded to my claims that worse has been done in the past and things have moved back.

This is a swing in the powers. Not a full time movement.

msquared

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Daruma28
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Just note that I didn't PERSONALLY attack you.

"It makes you look like nothing more than a Democrat hack and a tool."

I do not assume per se that you are in fact a hack and a tool...just pointing out that when you use such hyperbole, that is the mantle you appear to be wearing. I've been called similar for George Bush and the GOP - in fact, KE thinks I should apply to the GOP to be a propaganda writer...lol.

However, other than tax cuts and the war on terror (I am for "domestic" spying involving calls to AQ operatives in the ME...), their is nothing else I agree on with this adminstration anymore.

quote:
Both parties may do it, but the Republicans have held and continue to hold the reins. They bear the bulk of the responsibility for the wrongs that have been done and continue to be done.
This is a far cry from "Well, it was nice while it lasted. The founding Fathers had a good idea, but that's the way it goes. All it took was a few years of Republican majority before they sold us all down the river, again." which implies that everything was just fine during 40 years of Democrat majority rule.

I swear Godot, some of your posts seem to come verbatim from Dailykos or DU...all you need to do is change Republicans to "Repukes" or "Rethugs", and call Bush "Chimpy McHitler."

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FiredrakeRAGE
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Godot -

I was concerned about the NSA spying activities. At this point, however, I believe that the issue is relatively benign. The only time that the NSA has tapped someone is when they were receiving a call from a foreign national. Does that make it alright? No, not really. Does that make it likely that an investigation will rule that the intercepts are within the Constitution? Probably.

--Firedrake

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The Drake
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The Founding Fathers would have been far more shocked by Roosevelt's Presidency than Bush's, in my opinion.
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