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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Israeli ellections, and I am still undecided (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Israeli ellections, and I am still undecided
Hannibal
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in addition to what Ricky said

why forcibly let to populations who hate each other so much mingle whats the point? thats one of the main reasons for unilateral seperation.

or maybe you ment that all arab israelis within israel will immigrate to palestine and all jews will return to israel from the territories?

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RickyB
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I somehow doubt that he means that... [Big Grin]
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Pelegius
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Legel immigration is extreamly desirable from an economic standpoint. Israel needs cheap labour, which it might see were it not so blinded by racism.
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Hannibal
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its ok, we use thailandian workers.

they are much more interested in work, and they dont tend to blow up.

plus its easier to communicate with them.
and they are much more polite.

Pelegius, i must say, that even putting aside my close to racist opinions about palestinians and arabs, your claims, are merely showing how little you know about the situation here.

you might be a knowlagable person all in all, but on israeli issues, it doesnt work out for you very well.

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DonaldD
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"and they don't tend to blow up."

That was classic deadpan. Brilliant.

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RickyB
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quote:
Legel immigration is extreamly desirable from an economic standpoint. Israel needs cheap labour, which it might see were it not so blinded by racism.
How is it that you feel sooooo certain in your knowledge of what's best for a country you know so very little about?

If you knew just a teeny tad more, you'd know we have all the cheap labor we need, from countries all over the world, who actually tie our acceptance of their cheap labor to most commercial and diplomatic relations. Not just Thailand. Phillipines, Romania, Turkey, Colombia, China....and many others.

It's actually a huge problem, because we are guilty of treating these foreign workers very shoddily, and this of course creates a bad situation all around (except for the slave traders who make a killing...) but this has nothing to do with the Palestinians. We don't need them, they need us. And if relations are good enough they can come work here without immigrating here (psssst: just like they do today, and have for the past 39 years).

A worker from Gaza can be in Tel Aviv in 2.5 hours. In many other cities in half the time or less. If there's ever need, a rail line will be laid and it'll be an hour and a bit to Tel aviv. Why would they need to immigrate in order to work here? It's called commuting.

You are blatantly ignorant not only of the facts but also of the dynamics of the conflict, yet you choose to garb your groundless sweeping statements with crumbling dogma and generalizations. this is, of course your right, just as pointing out this defect in your worldview is mine.

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Hannibal
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that was a good elaboration of my post i must say

even though i whould suggest a little more humor in the future Ricky [Smile]

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RickyB
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It just pisses me off, this combination of authoritative, contemptuous dismissal AND utter ignorace of the subject matter.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
It just pisses me off, this combination of authoritative, contemptuous dismissal AND utter ignorace of the subject matter.

This is the first time you noticed? I thought it was an established pattern. [Big Grin]

[ April 06, 2006, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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Pelegius
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Firstly, I affirm that free movement of labour is an inherent part of Capitalism and is desirable from any economic perspective. Secondly, I would assume that Israel would not be so stupid as to allow probable suicide bombers into the country, as legal immigration does not mean unrestricted immigration, which would be clearly impractical and dangerous in this situation. Thirdly, I object strongly to your combination of authoritative, contemptuous dismissal AND utter ignorance of the subject matter, as you clearly did not even attempt to understand the subtitles of my argument, preferring, as always, to reconfirm Pelegius into a convenient strawman for your arguments, rather than open your own minds to any ideas that fail to meet your own crumbling dogma and generalizations.

Finally, I cannot sufficiently express my utter contempt, mingled with outright furry and mixed with a great burden of sadness, for your oft-expressed, and always wrong, view of people in terms of nations rather than individuals. I have repeatedly cited examples of nonviolent Palestinian Arabs, whom you repeatedly acknowledged, however begrudgingly, as representing at least a minority of Palestinians, and yet you persist in the dogmatic and xenophobic view that all Palestinians are terrorists and thus also untermensch and deserving the treatment thereof. If the state of Palestine shall fail, and it cannot but do so if the present path is tread, then I see no reason why those of the nation who love peace and freedom as much as any Jew should be condemned to die for a country they have no wish to die for. Thus, I argue for the right of Palestinian Arabs to live in Israel. I also believe that Israeli Jews should be able to live in Palestine, but in the current state of anarchy that can hardly be even desirable for any of them (even the settlers, I think, would not stay unless supported by the IDF.)

I refuse to think in terms of Palestinians and Israelis, but shall instead uphold the right of individual self determination, for all individuals of all ethnicities and creeds in all states, and I despise the attempts by any party to withhold the birthright of humanity from humanity.

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RickyB
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quote:
I have repeatedly cited examples of nonviolent Palestinian Arabs, whom you repeatedly acknowledged, however begrudgingly, as representing at least a minority of Palestinians, and yet you persist in the dogmatic and xenophobic view that all Palestinians are terrorists and thus also untermensch and deserving the treatment thereof.
Nope, that's Hannibal. Try to distinguish. I know we Jews look alike, but... [Razz]

quote:
If the state of Palestine shall fail, and it cannot but do so if the present path is tread, then I see no reason why those of the nation who love peace and freedom as much as any Jew should be condemned to die for a country they have no wish to die for. Thus, I argue for the right of Palestinian Arabs to live in Israel.
So the residents of ay failed state has the inherent right to live in any non-failed state they want? Even if by doing so they will almost certainly turn that state into a failed one as well? If my house is crumbling and roach-infested, I have the inalienable right to squat at your place? Why can't they live in Jordan, or Egypt? Why does it have to be MY place?

quote:
I refuse to think in terms of Palestinians and Israelis,
That's lovely. However, it matters not if the sheep vote unanimously in favor of vegeterianism, as long as the wolf continues to think otherwise.

Look, buddy. You basically said "Your country really needs X, but is too racist to even see what's good for it". It turned out that while my country can be charged with racism on all kinds of fronts, in this particular instance, you didn't know what the fock you were talking about. It turned out that my country does NOT need your X, because it already gets it elsewhere.

Did you even acknowledge this arrogant error of yours? Nope. You clung to your dogma and continued to proclaim it with the air of a poor persecuted idealist. Why should I respect that? You make an ass of yourself? Own the fock up first, then continue to try to fit the actual facts into your world view.

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Pelegius
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Ricky, your persistent use of such grotesque analogies such as referring to Palestinians as roaches and wolves, only proves my point as to your regarding them as untermensch. Perhaps they too are poisonous mushrooms? As one who does not belong to the master race, being unfortunately a gentile, I must indeed fear for the consequences of your statement: although my race has not yet been targeted, I see no reason why, if races are to be judged as inferior, it should not be next. Except of course for the massive funding the übermensch receive from us mere mensch, which may perhaps keep us from being demoted to the next level, with the Arab roaches.
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DonaldD
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Pelegius, you may need to re-read what Ricky wrote: in his analogy, the crumbling house and roaches represent the conditions in which Palestinians find their country/region. Neither the roaches nor the crumbling house refers to the inhabitants of the house. BTW, why didn't you think the crumbling house referred to the Palestinians too?
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Jesse
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Pelegius, there is no significant difference in heritage between Druze and Muslim "Arabs", but both Hannibal and Ricky have said good things about the Druze. To weaken your case even further, both of them have a record of saying some positive things about Arab Israelis.

On the whole "ubermensch" front, thats a matter of massive cultural bias. Neither of them has EVER classified Jewishness in "racial" terms. Both frequently point out that there are Jews of virtually all genetic backgrounds.

Massive cultural bias is an accusation that, in regards to either of them, would be pretty well founded and which I doubt either of them would deny. Both have made clear which culture they perfer, emphatically.

Hannibal is a self-admited bigot, and prejudges Palestinian Muslim Arabs...but does he prejudge Israeli Arabs or Christian Palestinian Arabs? The answer is pretty much no, and that pretty much undercuts the idea that his bigotry is racist in nature.

You're talking to Hannibal and RickyB...but you're using arguments that wouldn't be well aimed at anyone I've ever seen post here.

Ok, except StarLisa.

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Paladine
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Pelegius-

I don't mean to pile on, but Ricky's not a guy you want to accuse of racism (especially when said accusation is grounded in the product of a demonstrated lack of critical reading ability); he's got a long history on this board that strongly contradicts your characterisation of his mentality, as does a plain reading of what he wrote. You also haven't answered his main point, as I understand it.

Israel doesn't need cheap Palestinian labor, as you contended. You made a statement; Ricky and Hannibal refuted it. You responded to this by calling them names and writing "mensch" frequently enough to make my head explode. That kind of ad hominem trash doesn't fly here, especially when the characterizations aren't even accurate. Start by admitting you were wrong or providing evidence to support your claim, and go from there. Anyway, I guess I kind of piled on there, so back off I go. [Wink]

-------------------------------------------

Ricky and Hannibal-

I'm kind of curious as to your take on Hamas's victory in the Palestinian elections. It would suggest to me that not as many Palestinians as I had hoped were ready for a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Do you think that there can be a lasting peace with a Palestinian state controlled by such an extremist group? Do you think there'll even be a Palestinian state so long as such a regime remains in power?

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Hannibal
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Pelegius, a good percentage of the palestinians are terroritsts, another good percentage of them celebrate when israeli civilians die, oh and yes there are a handfull of palestinians who want peace with israel. so you are right, not all palestinians are terrorists, close to all of them are.
so - again, you said that it whould be good, if there was some sort of legal immigration basis between both our people. lets check this out from both countries perspectives:
israel - what israel can get from the palestinians is cheap labour to do construction and field work. does israel need especially the palestinians for that ? no, there are tens of tousands of foreign workers from various nations who work in israel and give those services.
when israel did open its borders to palestinians there was a suicide attack once a day. yes a suicide attack once per day. are the palestinian workers better then other foreign workers? not at all, so why should israel open itself to such dangers?
can the palestinians provide somthing else to israel? didnt see any high teck workers emerge from the palestinian territories so most defenetly not.
palestine : palestine gets water, electricity, gas, fuel, jobs, health care, phones, and money from us israelis.
even right now, when the palestinians try desperatly to launch rockets on the power station of ashqelon some 6 kilometers north of gaza, that power station is probably responsible for the electricity that helps make those rockets.(40 rockets in the last week)
do the palestinians "behave" like they need all that stuff from israel? doesnt look that way.

did you remmember, what i said israel should do, after the pullout from gaza, if the palestinians launch a single rocket on israel. well not only israel does nothing (we bomb open areas, because we dont want to hit civilians, and thus the only thing that occures, is that israeli villages near gaza complain about the cannon noise from IDF artillery) does any other country in the world whould let itself be bombed so frequently, and do nothing?

Paladine :
"I'm kind of curious as to your take on Hamas's victory in the Palestinian elections"?
it showed that what i was saying was correct, the palestinians are not interested in makeing peace with israel, but in killing israelis.
"Do you think that there can be a lasting peace with a Palestinian state controlled by such an extremist group?"
never, there is no chance for peace in the middle east. since hamas came to power israel has officially disengaged from the palestinians. but we still provide the palestinians with all that was mentioned above (except money)
"Do you think there'll even be a Palestinian state so long as such a regime remains in power? "
maybe, because we are continuing our unilateral speperation from the palestinians, once there wont be anyjews on their territories, they might do somthing about it. but i dont care what they will do with themselves, and/or in how much anarchy they are in, as long as they do it inside their territories.

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RickyB
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Thank you, good people [Smile]
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RickyB
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Paladine - Hamas victory is not really due to their foreign policy or quest for an Islamic state. The Palestinians were sick and mo-fo tired of Fatah's monumental corruption and ineptitude, and rightly so. While Fatah bigwigs were lining their pockets as their people languished in poverty, Hamas was busy with a huge amount of charity work. It was a classic "kick the bums out" vote.

PLus, the margin of victory was greatly skewed due to a really stupid voting system known as the bloc system. What it means is, if you live in Jeruslaem, which has 6 parliament seats, you vote for all six, and then the six who get the most votes win. So even if a district is totally anti-hamas, it can still get a hamas representative.

Ed. to add: Can we make peace with a Hamas-led Palestine? Probably not, even though their chief rectum orifices ARE showing signs of yielding to reality on the whole "recognize Israel" thing. However, peace, while a many splendored thing, is not absolutely necessary for improving upon the current situation. A tense co-existence between two separate, sovereign entities will do for starters.

[ April 07, 2006, 05:40 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
Ricky, your persistent use of such grotesque analogies such as referring to Palestinians as roaches and wolves, only proves my point as to your regarding them as untermensch. Perhaps they too are poisonous mushrooms? As one who does not belong to the master race, being unfortunately a gentile, I must indeed fear for the consequences of your statement: although my race has not yet been targeted, I see no reason why, if races are to be judged as inferior, it should not be next. Except of course for the massive funding the übermensch receive from us mere mensch, which may perhaps keep us from being demoted to the next level, with the Arab roaches.

Pelegius, everyone makes mistakes, but you owe Ricky an apology for this one. He did not refer to Palestinians as cockroaches. He made an analogy between HIMSELF and a Palestinian. The cockroach infested house was symbolic of corruption, not of Palestinian people.

quote:
So the residents of ay failed state has the inherent right to live in any non-failed state they want? Even if by doing so they will almost certainly turn that state into a failed one as well? If my house is crumbling and roach-infested, I have the inalienable right to squat at your place? Why can't they live in Jordan, or Egypt? Why does it have to be MY place?
I've seen no evidence that Ricky's a racist.
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Pelegius
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All of you who have lept to Ricky's defence have a point, Ricky is in fact being xenophobic, not racist. I apologise for my poor choice in words, and I acknowledge that Ricky was refering to Palestinians of all ethnic and religious backgrounds in his comments. I shall not, cannot, however, refute my belief that any view in which all member of any nation, culture or religion are judged soley on the basis theit national cultural or religious background is a deplorable view, neglecting the fact that there are always indviduals who will do evil and always individuals who will do good, in every nation, in every time. Hannibal admits that not all Palestinians are terrorists, and yet persists in judging a nation rather than indviduals.
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RickyB
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<sigh>

I'm not doing that either, but I understand your need to put it thus.

Tell me, do you at least comprehend that you were wrong about Israel needing Palestinians' cheap labor? Cause you never did acknkowledge that if you do, and it's an argument you made in very vehement terms. So, do you?

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Pelegius
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Do I acknowladge that it is possible for Israel to obtain labour from other sources? yes, of course. Do I believe that this is either the most pragmatic or the most moral choice? resoundingly not.
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Hannibal
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yes pelegius, you ignore our answers about that quite un-skilfully

as for Ricky, if he is a racist, i am afraid to know what i am.

and ofcourse we look at the palestinians as a nation, just like we look at the argentinians as a nations

the palestinian terrorist groups have seased being "individuals with mal intentions" a long time ago. the hamas is a large organizations with hundreds of toudands of supporters and so are the rest of them.
and i have every right to see the palestinians as a people and not as individuals, they want to for a country for their people. and i have every right to defend myself, against the palestinians, i have every right not to allow them access to israel, and every right to punish them the way i see fit.

not only you completley ignore what we said about how little we need the palestinians, you ignored every thing i said about how much they need us, how much we still give them. even though they attack us daily.

who the fock they think they are that they can lob missiles whenever they see fit on israeli villages and cities?

and we, the western country, even though you dont think that, are too afraid of what the world will think if we will atomize them, so so far because no one has died YET, we give the palestinians slack.

we should start leveling blocks and use naplams if it was up to me, the palestinians are very lucky that i am not the PM.

and again, ofcourse non of that overlaps the fact that israel should unilaterlly leave most of the territories of 1967

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Hannibal
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"Do I acknowladge that it is possible for Israel to obtain labour from other sources? yes, of course. Do I believe that this is either the most pragmatic or the most moral choice? resoundingly not. "

why not? the economic problems of people from thailand are less important then those of the palestinians?
the pragmatism is allso null, because there are allready tens of tousands workers in israel allready, we got all the labour we need in that sector, and even more then what we need. so the pragmatism is pretty much there.
plus it turned out that the foreign workers, are even better then palestinians, which are, by the way, foreign workers themselves

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DonaldD
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Speaking as one who didn't leap to Ricky's defence, but simply pointed out your incredible lack of reading comprehension, I note that your lame-a** apology not only didn't address what you actually did wrong, but also that you used the opportunity to take a dig at those who pointed out your errors.

Lame, lame, lame.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
All of you who have lept to Ricky's defence have a point, Ricky is in fact being xenophobic, not racist. I apologise for my poor choice in words, and I acknowledge that Ricky was refering to Palestinians of all ethnic and religious backgrounds in his comments. I shall not, cannot, however, refute my belief that any view in which all member of any nation, culture or religion are judged soley on the basis theit national cultural or religious background is a deplorable view, neglecting the fact that there are always indviduals who will do evil and always individuals who will do good, in every nation, in every time. Hannibal admits that not all Palestinians are terrorists, and yet persists in judging a nation rather than indviduals.

I agree with your assessment of Hannibal, and I'd be surprised if he disagreed with it himself.

I'm glad that you took my advice on the apology, but please understand that I wasn't acting purely out of concern for Ricky. All of us make mistakes, and sometimes it helps to have someone show you the way to redeem yourself. Unlike DonalD, I think that your apology was meaningful. I disagree that Ricky is a Xenophobe, but I can see how you could reasonably come to that conclusion based on a limited set of facts, and Xenophobe isn't an epithet like "racist." Since you honestly believe Ricky to be a Xenophobe, I can appreciate your wanting to qualify your apology so as not to mis-state your position.

I think that you are a better person than others are giving you credit for, just as Ricky is a better person than you give him credit for. Over time we're probably going to come to know each each other a lot better.

Incidentally, Pelegius, I suspect that the word that you were really looking for is chauvenist.

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Pelegius
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Ricky's posts on many issues have indeed been enlightened, but not on the particular issue of Palestine-Israel relations, except perhaps when he was forced to take a stand against StarLisa.

"and ofcourse we look at the palestinians as a nation, just like we look at the argentinians as a nations" We most certainly do not do this, unless the "we" you use is royal and rhetorical. Perhaps we have our national stereotypes along the lines of the fact that all Argentinians like to eat beef and tango, but we do not claim that all Argentinians are Facists, just becouse of the history of juntas in the Argentine Republic.

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Everard
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"Ricky's posts on many issues have indeed been enlightened, but not on the particular issue of Palestine-Israel relations, except perhaps when he was forced to take a stand against StarLisa."

You're just digging yourself deeper, Pelegius.

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RickyB
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Pelegius, not that it is possible - THAT IT IS SO! You said "Israel need Palestinian cheap labor and would see that if it weren't blinded by ios own racism".

In so saying, you proved yourself ignorant of two facts:

1) That Israel already has all the cheap labor it needs from elsewhere.

2) That multitudes of Palestinians already work in Israel and have ever since the end of the 6 day war. Many still do, despite the advent of foreign labor from elsewhere which followed the Oslo agreements.

So don't tell me "Yes, it's possible". Say "Sorry, I had my facts wrong. I accused Israel of acting out of racism on something where that's not the case". (This btw does not prevent you from charging Israel with racism on different grounds, lest you fear losing your indictment...)

And pray tell, why is it more moral to give a job to a Palestinian than it is to a Thai or a Ghanian? Hmmmm?

[ April 07, 2006, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Pelegius
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Ricky, I refuse to be brought down to your level of defensive arguments, which, among other things, seems to involve a bizarre rewriting of my arguments so that they say essentially the same thing, only with more misspellings (which really should not be necessary, as I am prone to making my own mistakes.) I do, however, feel obliged to point out that it makes infinitely more sense to hire somebody who is willing, nay desperate, to work and lives a few kilometers away as opposed to hiring somebody with the same credentials who lives have the world away. My main argument, which you have consistently ignored and treated with a degree of insufferable condescension, has anti-chauvinist and anti-xenophobe, which is more than a little relevant as your sole argument has been rooted in xenophobia and chauvinism.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pelegius:
Ricky, I refuse to be brought down to your level of defensive arguments, which, among other things, seems to involve a bizarre rewriting of my arguments so that they say essentially the same thing, only with more misspellings (which really should not be necessary, as I am prone to making my own mistakes.) I do, however, feel obliged to point out that it makes infinitely more sense to hire somebody who is willing, nay desperate, to work and lives a few kilometers away as opposed to hiring somebody with the same credentials who lives have the world away. My main argument, which you have consistently ignored and treated with a degree of insufferable condescension, has anti-chauvinist and anti-xenophobe, which is more than a little relevant as your sole argument has been rooted in xenophobia and chauvinism.

You are alone in your self-righteousness, Pelegius. The rest of us are shaking our heads, some in disgust.

NOTE: for those that didn't notice: 1) I'm hurt that you didn't notice this; and 2) I'm mirroring a certain person's posting style, in hopes of illustrating a point. [Big Grin]

[ April 07, 2006, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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Hannibal
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i dont get it javelin?

Pelegius, what i said was that if, argentinian people whould start launching rockets on israel (lets pretend that its possible) then israel whould go to war against argentina.
and not against the people who launched those rockets.

further more, as Ricky stated. for some reason which is beyond me, we shoot our own legs and let tousands of palestinians to enter israel daily for work.

by the way do you know what heppnes to israelis who accidently enter palesatinian cities? they are linched.

"do, however, feel obliged to point out that it makes infinitely more sense to hire somebody who is willing, nay desperate, to work and lives a few kilometers away as opposed to hiring somebody with the same credentials who lives have the world away."

when we really opened our borders to the palestinians - they commited one or two suicide attacks per day. with all due respect to palestinian desperation, if they will try only half as much, to build up their country and economy, as they try to kill israelis, they whould have had a sate years ago. i am not willing to let a single israeli die because the palestinians are miserable.

" My main argument, which you have consistently ignored and treated with a degree of insufferable condescension, "

can you again tell us what was your main argument?

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RickyB
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"it makes infinitely more sense to hire somebody who is willing, nay desperate, to work and lives a few kilometers away as opposed to hiring somebody with the same credentials who lives have the world away"

Not a bad point. All things being equal, you'd be correct. But all things are NOT equal. The Thai gentleman picking flowers at a hothouse in some moshav (a kind of village) harbors no nationalistic claims to my land. I don't have to vet him five ways to sunday to make sure he's got no ties with any group sworn to kill me, that no brother/cousin/uncle of his has ever been killed in the violence between my people and his... And if the Thai gentleman wants to stay here beyond the duration I've agreed to, he'll have a much harder time fading into the background.

It's much less of a headache. Plus, as I said, we get all kinds of trade benefits from foreign countries for letting their workers come here. What do we get from the Palestinians?

Another thing: In the long run, it's actually better for the Palestinians not to be dependent on us for anything. That way we can't drive them all broke every time we decide not to let their workers in. That's not OUR motivation for bringing foreign workers instead of Palestinian ones, of course, but it's true none the less.

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Paladine
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quote:
In the long run, it's actually better for the Palestinians not to be dependent on us for anything.
An interdependent relationship might be better for both sides, actually. If two parties are indespensible to one another, they're much less likely to try to kill each other.

Picture a prosperous Palestine which depends upon Israel for a relatively high quality of life and I suspect you'll find a very different dynamic at work in Palestinian politics. Then again, I could be wrong.

quote:
A tense co-existence between two separate, sovereign entities will do for starters.
How is this possible? If the terrorist elements in Palestine continue to use the their government's institutions to further violence against Israel, and Israel is forced to smack down said terrorists, can the Palestinian Authority really exercise any amount of sovereign control over their territory?
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RickyB
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Interdependence is good, as you say, but you're not factoring in religion. A jihadi maniac will not care about prosperity, if he sees it as dependent on tolerance of blasphemy. Witness Saudi Arabia and a guy like Bin Laden, who's a multi-millionaire.

As for point 2: being attacked does not negate your sovereignty. And if Palestinian government institutions are used for terrorist activities, then we do not have coexistence.

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Paladine
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quote:
Interdependence is good, as you say, but you're not factoring in religion. A jihadi maniac will not care about prosperity, if he sees it as dependent on tolerance of blasphemy. Witness Saudi Arabia and a guy like Bin Laden, who's a multi-millionaire.
You're always going to have a fringe group of extremist whackos. And I fully understand that right now they're much more than a fringe. This is what prosperity changes though, no? If you have a future laden with the prospects of prosperity and fulfillment in front of you, suddenly becoming a martyr loses a lot of its appeal. If retailiations against terrorists disrupt what's otherwise a comfortable existence, you're much less likely to tolerate them operating in your midst.

But when you're down and out and looking for someone to blame, complicity with such despotic organizations is almost gratifying. Misery loves company.

Large scale terrorist networks require the complicity of a much larger group of people to operate effectively. You'll always have a few psychos who are willing to kill and die, but when they interfere with their friends' and neighbors' comfort and security they sure as hell become a lot less effective.

Frankly though, I have no idea how to get from here to there. I hope it's possible, but I have too much experience with idiots of all stripes to be optimistic. [Frown]

quote:

As for point 2: being attacked does not negate your sovereignty.

Oh, for sure it can. You're not sovereign over an area when you can't exercise control and have a monopoly on legitimate, large scale military force and violence. When a division of American tanks parks in Baghdad with impunity without the approval of the Iraqi government, to argue that Iraq is sovereign there seems a bit foolish to me.

If Israel can and does enter Palestinian territory with impunity, we don't have real Palestinian sovereignty. Do we?

[ April 08, 2006, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Paladine ]

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RickyB
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If you enter with tanks and so on, yes, that does negate sovereignty. Air strikes, less so. That's why we do a lot more of the latter.

I agree that the hope is that a better life will strip te whackos of their tacit support network. But a few whackos can do damage regardless of the wishes of 90+% of the population.

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