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Author Topic: The Dixie Chicks are back
Koner
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For all the country music fans out there, The Dixie Chicks new album is due out very soon. Today their new video "Not Ready to Make Nice" will debut on both CMT and VH1. I've seen the video and heard the song and I must say that I like it a lot.

I always thought that they got the short end of the deal when that whole controversy got stirred up. I think that people were misquoted and taken out of context on both sides of that argument, but that the Chicks took the brunt of the "punishment" while Toby Keith reaped all the benefit. I like Toby Keith, but I consider his style of music to be mind candy. Its fun to listen to but has very little substance.

Both sides of the controversy acted pretty immature. While I really like the new song, and I can completely understand where the Chicks are coming from with it, its possible that they may be opening a can of worms. Check out the new song here if you haven't heard it. Not Ready to Make Nice.

The last lines of the song are interesting.

quote:
Forgive, sounds good
Forget, I’m not sure I could
They say time heals everything
But I’m still waiting

Country music fans are notoriously fogiving fans. I truely believe that the fans are going to welcome the Dixie Chicks back with open arms and open wallets. If the rest of the new album is anywhere near as good as this first single its going to make very good sales. Will the ladies be able to forgive the fans who exercised their rights when they were offended by their actions and statements by not buying their last album or tickets to their concerts, when the sales start mounting on the new album?
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javelin
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For a non-country fan, I like quite a bit of the Dixie Chicks music - and I do like that song.
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Daruma28
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Bah. The Dixie Chicks are a classic example of failing to recognize their niche market and serving it appropiately.

As "country music" stars, dissing Bush in Europe made about as much PR sense as Gangsta Rappers praising the KKK. They deserved exactly what they got.

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Pete at Home
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I decided to never contribute to NPR today when they compared the Dixie Chicks to the various artists who flee repressive regimes to our sanctuary cities in order to safely publish their art. I guess that means I'm censoring NPR? [Roll Eyes]

The Dix insulted their own fans and country in order to score points with a foreign crowd. Why should the Dix get to say what's on their mind, and their fans not have the same right?

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javelin
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I don't think they did it to score points with a foreign crowd - I think they believed what they said, and felt they needed to say it. In doing so, they alienated 90% of their fan base. They've paid a price, and will continue to do so. And that's perfectly legit, for both their fans, and for the Chicks. What NPR said, of course, is nothing near legitimate, and is likely insulting and ridiculously annoying for those who have actually had to deal with censorship.

They still make some fine music.

[ April 04, 2006, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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Koner
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quote:
They've paid a price, and will continue to do so
Correct. They did pay a price and will continue to do so to some extent. Although I expect that their new album will do fairly well. What really needs to happen I think is that the Chicks need to issue an apology to the fans, NOT for what they said or did, but for becomeing angry at the fans for not agreeing with them.

Its fine to have your own opinions, but to become angry at those who don't agree with you doensn't help your cause.

The reason I think that this song could open up old wounds is primarily because of the last lines of the song. Its seems pretty clear that the ladies are convinced that they did NOTHING wrong and are waiting for the fans to make the first move toward forgiveness by buying the new album. I think that if the Chicks themselves would make the first move by issuing the apology for getting angry with the fans, the fans would respond by eagerly welcoming them back into the country music family.

Thats my take on it. But I still love the new song. The video is awesome as well.

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Mormegil
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I have 2 of their albums, and I don't have any problem with them hating Bush. I'm no Bush fan myself. But to say such things in another country is not cool. It's our dirty laundry, let's deal with it ourselves.

But that, while I didn't think much of it, wasn't what turned me off of them. It was their attitude that they were victims, and that their fans were wrong for being upset, and they talked about censorship and used other straw men to defend themselves. That was what made me decide I didn't need to bother with them any more.

Really, a lot of entertainers hold views, have attitudes, or live lives that I would find offensive. All I ask is that they keep it to themselves a bit. I would like to see a movie or listen to music and appreciate the performance, and not associate it with the real-life aspects of the performer.

With the Dixie Chicks, I can't really listen to their music without being reminded of their attitude.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
In doing so, they alienated 90% of their fan base. They've paid a price, and will continue to do so. And that's perfectly legit, for both their fans, and for the Chicks. What NPR said, of course, is nothing near legitimate, and is likely insulting and ridiculously annoying for those who have actually had to deal with censorship.

Agreed and well-said.

quote:
I don't think they did it to score points with a foreign crowd - I think they believed what they said, and felt they needed to say it.
I don't question that they believe what they said, but I think that they chose to say it to score points with a foreign crowd. I'd find your assessment of their motives easier to believe if they'd said that first in the USA, to their fans, rather than to the foreign crowd.

I am suspicious of the preachers who save all their sermons for the choir.

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javelin
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quote:
I don't question that they believe what they said, but I think that they chose to say it to score points with a foreign crowd. I'd find your assessment of their motives easier to believe if they'd said that first in the USA, to their fans, rather than to the foreign crowd.
That is a good point. I don't know why they chose to do this when they did, unless they felt they'd get a more sympathetic ear or something, but that's not that kewl either.
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LoverOfJoy
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I really haven't followed the controversy but I can imagine a context in which I could understand bringing up views on Bush to Europeans but not Americans and not have it be about "points".

For instance, let's say you hate Bush but don't want to make your concerts become some gripefest. So you decide not to mention it in concert, ever. You go to Europe and plan to keep politics out of it but when you get to the concert you meet a bunch of protestors there, screaming at you and throwing stuff.

"Whoah woah woah! Chill out! I understand you hating Bush...heck, I hate him, too! But I'm not Bush! I'm not 'America'. I'm a singer from America that happens to hate Bush, too, so sit down and enjoy the music and don't take out your hatred on me."

Would that be scoring points? Would that be saving my speech for the choir? I have no idea if that's how it all happened but I can imagine something LIKE that happening.

Personally, I find some attributes common among mormons (particularly Utah mormons) annoying and even downright offensive. I might occasionally stand up to the behavior and explain why I disagree with it. But I probably wouldn't go on concert and bring it up for no reason at all. However, if someone found out I was mormon and then griped, "Oh, you're a mormon. Mormons are X, Y and Z!" I imagine I might publicly acknowledge that some mormons can be X, Y, and Z at times, and yes, I can understand how that could be annoying...I find it annoying myself...but I and a lot of other mormons aren't like that. If I were in concert across the United States I imagine that scenario happening more out east than in Utah and Idaho only because other people are likely to bring it up outside of Utah and Idaho.

Having said all that, I really don't know exactly what the Dixie Chicks said or in what context so I may end up agreeing with you if I ever get curious enough to dig up the details. [Big Grin]

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KnightEnder
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quote:
I'm no Bush fan myself. But to say such things in another country is not cool. It's our dirty laundry, let's deal with it ourselves.

Ditto
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flydye45
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Not my demographic. I just trust that the same folks who remembered "The Great Cause" for 100 years aren't going to forget too soon.

I imagine they will stay reasonably popular, but not to the levels they were before. And they'll blame the fans... [Roll Eyes]

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Pete at Home
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Good analogy, LoJ, and I agree that it depends on context. I don't recall the exact words. If you find the story and have a different interpretation when you see the context, let me know.
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Jesse
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Eh, Willy Nelson lost some fans when his politics became well known, but he gained others.

Even the great Johnny Cash suffered through some trash talking when he released The Man in Black (we're losing 100 fine young men each week).

Toby Kieth has recently made public that he's a life long Democrat, a bit to the right of Willy and WAY to left of Ted Nugent. Paraphrase, but damn close paraphrase. He also made clear that Shockin Y'all was about Osama and Afganistan, not Iraq.

The Dixie Chicks time at the top of the county-pop pile was about over anyway, no one stays there all that long. Lucky for them, they're song writers who can actually play instruments. In the grand scheme of things, this might, at most, have cost them one more CD in super-star territory before settling down to be a touring group selling about a million copies a shot.

It's not like they're hurting for cash anyway...and Willy makes a lot more than Charlie Daniels [Smile]

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FiredrakeRAGE
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I could be wrong; I've had trouble finding a source. I believe the Dixie Chicks said that they did not support Bush. Upon the receipt of some irate (non) fan mail, the Dixie Chicks, instead of simply defending their right to speak as they will, insulted several country music singers and insulted country music fans. Surprise, surprise: if you insult your fans, they will probably not be happy about it. From that point of view the new song 'Not Ready to Make Nice' is simply the Dixie Chicks taking more shots at their fans.

Now I am not a real country fan. I am not much of a redneck. It does, however, seem to me that the Dixie Chicks are reaping what they sow. If they want to play the offended artists, fine – but they should not expect (much less demand) an apology from their fans.

--Firedrake

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RickyB
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So if you make music of a certain genre, you must forgo your own opinions and tailor them to those of your stereotypical fan? <this is me, blowing a raspberry to that notion>

And it ain't our dirty laundry when we ourselves take it abroad. [Big Grin]

Go Dixie Chicks! (Doubly so for digging Little Feat [Smile] )

And since we're on this topic: I remember back in the '92 campaign, Papa Bush said something about how he respects "the values of country music". Jay Leno's response: "Of course he does. Pretty soon he, too, will be sitting on the tailgate of his pickup, getting drunk on beer and whining about how he lost his job..."

POW! Right in the kisser, Alice! [Big Grin]

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FiredrakeRAGE
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RickyB -

No, you can have your own opinions. On the other hand, if you act out at a venue, then proceed to verbally attack your fans, you're going to face consequences.

Speech is free. It's not without consequences.

--Firedrake

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
So if you make music of a certain genre, you must forgo your own opinions and tailor them to those of your stereotypical fan? <this is me, blowing a raspberry to that notion>

Who said anything of the sort, Ricky?

Please make more effort to see past the stereotypes.

[ April 05, 2006, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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I just don't respect this sense of leftist entitlement. It's gone beyond the 1970s sense of entitlement, they feel entitled to our souls now. If we stop liking them when they insult us, then we've infringed on their freedom of speech. Don't they have any fragging clue that they are making a mockery of real free speech issues?
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Cytania
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Country music needs outlaw stars who aren't afraid to speak their mind. Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Gram Parsons, Steve Earle...

Lot of male artists there maybe the Dixie Chicks are just evening things up for women?

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Koner
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quote:
Country music needs outlaw stars who aren't afraid to speak their mind. Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Gram Parsons, Steve Earle...

Lot of male artists there maybe the Dixie Chicks are just evening things up for women?

There have been MANY female country artists who should equally be on your list over the years.

Strong willed woman who had no fear of speaking their minds. Off the top of my head....

Linda Ronstadt, June Carter Cash, Loretta Lynn, Tanya Tucker, Emmylou Harris, Tammy Wynette, Patsy Cline, even Dolly Parton.

All of these women were as equally influencial as any of the male artists you mentioned. Each had songs that spoke out for woman and reflected much the same "outlaw" attitude that the male stars of the same era did.

What about Jeanie C. Riley's "Harper Valley PTA", Tammy Wynette's "D.I.V.O.R.C.E", Loretta Lynn's "The Pill", Dolly Parton's "Here You Come Again" and "9 to 5", Lynn Anderson's "Rose Garden", and "Promises Promises". All great songs by female country stars espousing womans issues.

How could I have possibly forgotten to mention Jessi Colter.

The Dixie Chicks are FAR from the only female "outlaws".

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javelin
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They are just the ones who have been outspoken about the fact that they feel "betrayed by their fans" because their fans don't agree with them.
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RickyB
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Infringed? Freedoms? Wat are you talking about? Don't like them. Nobody insulted you. They insulted Shrub. If you take insults to him as insults to you, that's your problem.
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RickyB
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I don't think it's because the fans don't agree. I think it's because the fans turned virulent upon disagreement. But maybe I'm wrong.
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FiredrakeRAGE
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RickyB -

Actually, I believe it was the Dixie Chicks that turned virulent upon disagreement, and the fans that reacted to that.

--Firedrake

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Pete at Home
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Sorry, Fans, you have to go back to buying the Dixie Chicks' stuff, because Ricky does not approve of your disapproval.
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RickyB
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Um, yeah, sure, that's what I said [Razz]
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Jesse
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Uh, according to them, they "turned virulent" when they started getting death threats, and people bought tickets to their concerts just to throw stuff at them.

By the way, I detest Charlie Daniels politics, and I like some of his stuff... "Ballad of Thunder Road" "Long Haired Country boy" ect.

I think it's kind of stupid not to buy someones music because of political differences, but people are free to be stupid.

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RoseAuthor
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I think this is similar to the Hanoi Jane (Fonda) issue during the Vietnam conflict. It wasn't that Jane Fonda said she hated America or even disapproved of the president's/congress's actions. It was the fact that it (her actions and speech) came across as betrayal (traitor) and perhaps an encouragement for the enemy to continue killing and torturing our soldiers.

The Dixie Chicks made the same mistake. I could care less if they don't like Bush, but going over seas and making the comments made them appear as American desenters, unsupportive to the troops, and shamed?... they deserved the response they received from the country. And many think their comments are much like Jane's.. encouraging the enemy to continue their terroristic behaviors and costing more American lives.

As for north central Texas: There are still country stations who refuse to play their (dc) music. Congress didn't enact any law prohibiting the Dixie's freedom of expression or speech. So they can continue their hate speeches. However, the stations and country fanbase will continue exercising their freedom in a like manner by NOT playing any Dixie Chicks...

I, for one, threw away my DC albums when I heard their comments and I'm slow to anger and equally as slow to forgive.

[ April 07, 2006, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: RoseAuthor ]

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RoseAuthor
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Jesse: I'm not financially supporting people I don't care for and yet that's stupid. I don't like the politics of most magazines, therefore I don't buy them. It's not stupid. They, dc, threw their politics out there to be judged rather than sticking to being artist. If they wanted their music to sell.. they should have marketed it better than insulting their fan base. To me, they were stupid not the fans/ex.

[ April 07, 2006, 01:14 AM: Message edited by: RoseAuthor ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
Uh, according to them, they "turned virulent" when they started getting death threats, and people bought tickets to their concerts just to throw stuff at them.

I had not heard that. Could you source me, Jesse? Death threats and assault certainly are an attack on someone's rights, and political persecution. If the DCs only turned virulent after and in response to death threats and assaults by the audience, that would change my view of this story.

quote:
By the way, I detest Charlie Daniels politics, and I like some of his stuff... "Ballad of Thunder Road" "Long Haired Country boy" ect.
The operative question isn't whether you like his stuff, but whether you pay money for it.

quote:
I think it's kind of stupid not to buy someones music because of political differences
There's more than political difference going on here, Jesse. This is more of a cultural "betrayal" (note the quotes). I think a country audience could feel insulted that their favorite "country" group were only at "home" with a European crowd. It's like finding out your best friend is laughing at you behind your back with the kids from the better side of the tracks. Europeans speak with terrible contempt for the southern and Western Americans, the "cowboys" as they call them. It was the first time that fans had heard about the DC views, and they seemed to be spouting it to curry favor with people that dispise us. That's not disloyalty to the country, but I can understand why the fans would feel betrayed.

Of course that would not excuse the stuff you said, if that's really what happened. I'm a little surprised, since the articles and radio stuff defending the DC and crying against the evil fans, never mentioned death threats or throwing objects at them at their own concerts.

[ April 07, 2006, 05:47 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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IrishTD
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quote:
But that, while I didn't think much of it, wasn't what turned me off of them. It was their attitude that they were victims, and that their fans were wrong for being upset, and they talked about censorship and used other straw men to defend themselves.
Exactly! As an artist, if you're gonna say something that may alienate your fan base, you have to deal with the consequences.

And as a country listner and frequent purchaser of music/concert tix (along with my wife) I have no use for the Chicks. At this point, I'd prefer that they just go away -- or at the very least take some responsibility for their actions -- then I might give them another chance.

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RickyB
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nd to say they were only "at home" with a European audience is nonsense. Let's see, if they say the same thing at a gig someplace where Bush got 60% of the vote, they get booed. If they said the same thing in Europe where the audience agrees - still no good?
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Upon the receipt of some irate (non) fan mail, the Dixie Chicks, instead of simply defending their right to speak as they will, insulted several country music singers and insulted country music fans.
*blink* As I recall, the Chicks received numerous death threats and had concert equipment vandalized. They have every right, IMO, to complain about the "fan" response.
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FiredrakeRAGE
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TomDavidson -

Of course. As with most cases of violence, it was (afaik) a small minority. The large minority did things like not listen to the DC, or call into radio stations requesting to not hear their various songs.

--Firedrake

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livermeer kenmaile
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quote:
I'm no Bush fan myself. But to say such things in another country is not cool. It's our dirty laundry, let's deal with it ourselves.
'not cool' is, of course, a less than absolute condition, but still, it use here begs the question: does American freedom of speech stop overseas? (All other things being equal, that is, like whether or not one is speaking at an assembly for North Korean nuclear supremacy or, as a woman, speaking out about ANYtyhing in, say, Saudi Arabia.)

Or, put another way, should we abandon self-critique in other lands and relinquish it solely to foreigners? Should we not speak up against -- or FOR -- our homeland when we are not at home? You know: 'YOU can talk bad about my mama in your home but I can't talk bad about my mama in your home.' Interesting concept. The talking bad part, I mean, not Bush as yo mama [Wink]

As for keeping national dirty laundry at home, I remind us that the core issue raised so contentiously by the DC was that of forceful intervention in the physical space of other nations. Shock'n'Awe is not the name of a Toby keith song about his reaction when Monica Mounds dropped her big top brassiere. It's a technique for invading a foreign country.

quote:
I imagine they will stay reasonably popular, but not to the levels they were before. And they'll blame the fans... [Roll Eyes]
Well, who else can you blame for a drop in popularity? That is, assuming that one views oneself as an artist with a message that bears fidelity to and integrity with one's personal beliefs rather than an artist whose sole purpose as such is to stay on top of Billboard's C&W chart.

If Bruce Springsteen decided tomorrow to be a highly outspoken supporter of Israeli Zionism, and the public denounced him for it, and his fan base shrunk as a result, and (important part here) HE WAS SINCERE IN HIS NEW-FOUND ZIONISM, whom but those who no longer adulate him could he blame for no longer adulating him? ('Adulating' is too extreme a term for The DC situation, which is not just about diminished celebrity worship but a ton of hate mail.)

Of course, if you rather, the likes of The DC could stay in their proper People magazine places and care only about their next record's sales and their share in the pop music market and how they'll conceal from their adoring fans the details of their recent facelift? "We're so sorry you hate us! If we say we're sorry will you like us again? Please...???"

Mles Davis, arguably the defining jazz genius of the century in which jazz came to be, famously blamed his fans for not 'getting' what he was up to when he turned his back (literally, on stage, often) on his adoring fans and went in a new direction they neither cared for nor understood. He held to his guns. They either followed and learned to like it (record sales prove this was usually the case) or they didn't. Miles wasn't going to take their behavior as indication that his music wasn't good enough for them, but rather, as evidence that they weren't good enough for his music.

Frank Zappa, another massive figure of 20th century music, a seminal musician who almost single-handedly inaugurated both progressive rock, fusion jazz, and rock/jazz/classical/folk Dada burlesque and the comic rock opera, famously said that most peple wouldn't know good music if it came up and bit them on their ass. He in no way excluded his audience from this category, and often mocked them during his performances.

(His audience nonetheless grew.)

It is not hypocrisy for a sincerely superficial public narcissist to wave -- or burn -- the flag in an attempt to appeal to an audience. That's what attention-craving egocentrics DO. Does the idol worship the worshippers or do the worshippers worship the idol? Or, as in this paragraph's case, both?

Likewise, it is not hypocrisy for The DC to denounce the disapproving portion of their fan base for denouncing The DC for expressing their sincere beliefs. Rather, it is only a continuation of their beliefs, which include freedom of speech in all its gnarly glory.

We can't ALL be publicly malleable fluff-kittens, you know, just as we can't all be staunch Bush supporters.

Some ob oiss jist gots to habb minds ob ah own, dagnab it.

quote:
No, you can have your own opinions. On the other hand, if you act out at a venue, then proceed to verbally attack your fans, you're going to face consequences.

Speech is free. It's not without consequences.

Wow. I hadn't known that.

quote:
I just don't respect this sense of leftist entitlement. It's gone beyond the 1970s sense of entitlement, they feel entitled to our souls now. If we stop liking them when they insult us, then we've infringed on their freedom of speech. Don't they have any fragging clue that they are making a mockery of real free speech issues?
Omigod. Their personal cause isn't sufficiently grand to be a 'real' free speech issue. Not to mention their obvious foisting upon us a sense of leftist entitlement (beyond the 70s' version, no less!), and now they feel, according to Pete, entitled to our souls!

Time for an exorcism: "...the power of Ernest Tubb compels thee, the power of Ernest Tubb compels thee, the power of Ernerst Tubb compels thee..."

Kenmaile's Moral of Summation: How DARE they dislike their fans for not liking them. Don't they understand the rules of mutual sycophantism?

Bonus Track:

Zappa Defends Free Speech on Crossfire 1986; His Opponent Defends Comb-Over Bald Spots and Verbal Frothery

[ April 07, 2006, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: livermeer kenmaile ]

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Koner
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The "uproar" started with the comment made in England that they were ashamed that Bush was from their home state of Texas. The initial statement made very little commotion which was dying down until Toby Keither said something about it in an interview. After the TK interview, the Chicks came back and made comments about TK. Basically bashing TK by saying that "any idiot can write "Boot in your ass"", essentially calling TK an idiot no talent redneck. That pissed off all the Toby Keith fans (and there are a LOT of TK fans).

At this point the Chicks were performing on the ACM's and Natalie wore a t-shirt with the letters F.U.T.K. on it (you figure out what it means [Eek!] ). Afterwards she tried to claim that it stood for "Freedom, Understanding, Tolerance, Knowledge". Yeah right. The Chicks won ZERO awards that night but had been up for several, and TK won several including Entertainer of the Year.

A couple of weeks later at the Grammy's where the Chicks actually won two awards. After that one of the Chicks (Not Natalie) said in an interview that they didn't win any ACM's but they did win two Grammy's against stiffer competition. That ticked off fans even more because it appeared as though they were saying they were better than any other country artist. I think that comment was taken out of context though and didn't mean what it has been taken to at this point.

DC fans and TK fans went at it big time. TK fans took to wearing F.U.D.C. t-shirts leaving no room for interpretation. TK had a string of "patriotic" pro-war songs. Country music fans, being notoriously patriotic, sided with TK and the Dixie Chicks quickly faded away.

It all started with one badly timed comment. Blew up because of a t-shirt. Got REALLY ugly when fans being fanatical did and said/wrote stupid things. It all got blown WAY WAY WAY out of proportion.

A simple apology to TK for the t-shirt and an apologetic statement about the comments that were made in England would have been enough to prevent what happened to them. Instead they chose to be defiant and blame the whole thing on the fans. I still think that the fans would forgive them if they would just apologize. Its a "he said, she said" argument and the DC's are unwilling to accept that they are the ones who caused it.

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TomDavidson
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Even based on your summation, I don't think they DID cause it. The blame can in fact be laid squarely on their ignorant/patriotic fans, as you've pointed out.

[ April 07, 2006, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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Pelegius
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Just for reference, one of the Dixie Chicks is from San Antonio, which is not a place George Bush would be confortable right now. That is, unless he enjoys having thousands of students shout at him that he hates Mexicans. In fact, George W. may be playing to his fan base in the party, but he would have to take extream action against ant-immigration Republicans to become popular again in South Texas. Not of course that he cares, as North and East Texas are still likely to vote Republican, as are most Anglo-Texans (myself not amoung them.)
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IrishTD
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quote:
The blame can in fact be laid squarely on their ignorant/patriotic fans, as you've pointed out.
NO! They (DC) are just as ignorant. "My/Our free speech is being violated because people aren't buying our music" is an ignorant statment. IIRC this is a statement DC made. Many other artists (actors, etc) have made this statement (or similar enough) as well. It's pure and utter cow dung. I think most of us can agree to that...if not, then maybe we need to bring up a thread on free speech around here.
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