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Author Topic: Moussaoui
philnotfil
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I haven't really been paying much attention to this case, but every time I do hear about it, I hear the same thing over and over again, and it is starting to bother me.

I keep hearing that Moussaoui deserves the death penalty, and then I hear that he should be executed because his silence led to the deaths of 3000 Americans.

Is that a death penalty charge? Are we also going to be executing the individuals in the intelligence community who could have prevented 9/11 by communicating with each other?

When I think emotionally (is that an oxymoron) I want him dead, but when I look at what is being said about the case, I wonder what is going on.

Is he the scape goat? If they had caught all 20 terrorists would they be facing the death penalty?

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Everard
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If we had caught all 20 terrorists, I do not think Moussaoui would be facing the death penalty. Yes, I think he is the scapegoat. And if he is executed, it will be a perversion of the american judicial system.
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Koner
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I think the guy is a nobody, low level al qaeda flunky grunt. I think that he is a new type of "suicide bomber" looking to make himself out to be a martyr for the cause.
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EDanaII
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Which is why I'd probably be happy if they just gave the luzer life in prison. Just another reason why we can all worship his uselessness. [Wink]

Ed.

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Richard Dey
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I'm afraid that, if Moussaouy was responsible for one death, and that life was somebody obliged to jump off a building to save himself from being burnt alive, I would be so tempted to kill him that I would not resist the temptation. I'm glad I'm not responsible for making the decision.

Perhaps the frustration that the terrorists are having even now is that they aren't being martyred fast enough.

I just keep wondering why Saddam is still alive.

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TommySama
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I think we should just throw him into a 5x5 foot cell with no windows or light of any kind, except for a little slit for food to come out and a toilet in the corner of the room. And just leave him there. (If he's guilty)
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TommySama
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Can we do that?
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Pelegius
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It might be frowned upon.
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livermeer kenmaile
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quote:
I just keep wondering why Saddam is still alive.
We need him to head up a New Coalitional Government in Iraq?
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EDanaII
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quote:
I think we should just throw him into a 5x5 foot cell with no windows or light of any kind, except for a little slit for food to come out and a toilet in the corner of the room. And just leave him there.
There are some who might argue that this cruel and unusual punishment, but I wouldn't have a problem with it. In fact, I'd up the ante by throwing in a TV that gets the Christian Broadcast Network as the only channel. [Wink]

Ed.

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Pete at Home
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If we'd caught all 20, they should be facing the death penalty. We're talking about nearly three thousand victims, more than enough to go around. And when we catch the planners, we should also put them to death, unless there's a very very good strategic reason not to.

There's certainly no serious legal or moral reason to preserve the life of a mass murderer without remorse who wants to die.

It would be irresponsible to keep Mousaoui alive, encouraging terrorists to take hostages to demand Mousaoui's realease.

Obviously he wants to die, gloating over what he did, showing no remorse in front of the jury, and then practically daring them to put him to death with that "you'll never get my blood" nonsense. Kill him. No harm done, and considerable harm averted.

I don't want to make him suffer. I want to do what we can to mitigate the suffering of the 9/11 victims' families, and to prevent hostage-taking.

Mousaoui thinks that his god approved his little murder spree. Let's send him back to his god as soon as possible and let them clear up that little misunderstanding.

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Pete at Home
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Phil, you've forgotten about the whole "mens rea" of the crime.
quote:
Originally posted by philnotfil:
Are we also going to be executing the individuals in the intelligence community who could have prevented 9/11 by communicating with each other?

If you can show that individuals in the intelligence community knew for a fact that 9/11 was going to happen if they did not communicate with each other, and chose not to communicate because they wanted all those people to die, then yes, they would be co-conspirators, and would be even more worthy of death that Mousaoui.
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EDanaII
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And just who, exactly, did Moussaoui kill, Pete?

He's been convicted for conspiracy, not for murder, and while I, personally, could care less whether or not the bastard lives or dies I have no problem letting him live long enough to see that he's more the butt of many a joke rather than the feared and fearsome terrorist he wants us to think he is.

Letting that happen would be all the justice I need.

Ed.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
And just who, exactly, did Moussaoui kill, Pete?
Who exactly did Osama kill? Who exactly did Mohammed Atta kill?

quote:
He's been convicted for conspiracy, not for murder,
Conspiracy to what? Traffic in non-FDA approved hot dogs?

Moussaoui was part of a conspiracy to mass-murder.

If the mob hires six assassins to shoot at someone at the same time, in collusion, and between them they kill the target, the prosecution does not have to check their guns and bullets to find out whose bullet actually hit the victim. They are all guilty of murder.

Mousaoui missed, but he was still part of a successful attempt to commit mass murder.

I don't understand why anyone would find him less guilty just because he got unlucky.

quote:
Letting that happen would be all the justice I need.
Unless you're relatives died in the attacks, this isn't about your personal justice needs. It's certainly not about mine.

[ April 09, 2006, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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EDanaII
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Before we go any further, Pete, I think there's one thing I need to make clear. I suspect that this is a more serious subject for you than it is for me. Hence my quips above about locking him in a room with only the CBN for his "television enjoyment."

quote:
Who exactly did Osama kill? Who exactly did Mohammed Atta kill?
You didn't answer my question, Pete. [Smile] They did kill someone via conspiracy.

quote:
Conspiracy to what? Traffic in non-FDA approved hot dogs?

Moussaoui was part of a conspiracy to mass-murder.

Let's be more clear here. He was convicted based on his confession.

quote:
If the mob hires six assassins to shoot at someone at the same time, in collusion, and between them they kill the target, the prosecution does not have to check their guns and bullets to find out whose bullet actually hit the victim. They are all guilty of murder.

Except that you are accepting the argument that he actually WAS part of that conspiracy.

quote:
Mousaoui missed, but he was still part of a successful attempt to commit mass murder.
Moussaoui didn't "miss" anything if he was never a part of the conspiracy to begin with.

quote:
I don't understand why anyone would find him less guilty just because he got unlucky.
Because we don't punish someone just because he wants to be part of a conspiracy?

quote:
Unless you're relatives died in the attacks, this isn't about your personal justice needs. It's certainly not about mine.
And this is exactly why I think you're takin' this subject more seriously than I. [Smile]

However, two words, "The Ox-bow Incident." ...OK, that was three. [Smile]

Mob rule and conspiracy really aren't sufficient grounds to hang a crazy wanna-be martyr based solely on his confession.

That said, since he confessed, and because I don't care all that much, I ain't gots no problem with him taking what comes with that confession. But life imprisonment and standing outside his cell and whispering "Luzer, luzer, luzer..." is fitting enough punishment for me. Were we talkin' Usama, or someone else? Hang the bastard, and then hang him a couple extra times, just to be sure. But this guy? Why give a crazy man martyrdom simply because he's willing to confess to something he didn't do? If he wants it, he should earn it and I'm all for remindin' him that he's even managed to screw that up.

Ed.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by EDanaII:
Before we go any further, Pete, I think there's one thing I need to make clear. I suspect that this is a more serious subject for you than it is for me. Hence my quips above about locking him in a room with only the CBN for his "television enjoyment."

Perhaps. But I'm not going to take it personally, since I have no dog in this fight. I don't mind if we let him live, so long as there's a damned good strategic reason for it. Because there's no reason in morality and in law for this man to live.

quote:
Who exactly did Osama kill? Who exactly did Mohammed Atta kill?
You didn't answer my question, Pete. [Smile] They did kill someone via conspiracy.
And that is the answer for your question.


quote:
Conspiracy to what? Traffic in non-FDA approved hot dogs?

Moussaoui was part of a conspiracy to mass-murder.
---
Let's be more clear here. He was convicted based on his confession.

If it were a repentant confession, then I'd see that as an argument to extend mercy. Not a boastful confession.

quote:
Except that you are accepting the argument that he actually WAS part of that conspiracy.
I am. I haven't seen anyone here say he was innocent. If he wasn't part of the conspiracy, then we certainly should not let him rot in prison, we should let him go or put him in the nuthouse where he can't do himself harm by confessing to things he did not do.

quote:
Mousaoui missed, but he was still part of a successful attempt to commit mass murder.
-----
Moussaoui didn't "miss" anything if he was never a part of the conspiracy to begin with.

In which case why do you want him in prison?

quote:
I don't understand why anyone would find him less guilty just because he got unlucky.
-----Because we don't punish someone just because he wants to be part of a conspiracy?

We don't. Either he's part of the conspiracy and we kill him, or he's innocent and we let him go. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

quote:
Unless you're relatives died in the attacks, this isn't about your personal justice needs. It's certainly not about mine.
----
And this is exactly why I think you're takin' this subject more seriously than I. [Smile]

Because I don't have a need to see him die or go to prison?


quote:
However, two words, "The Ox-bow Incident." ...OK, that was three. [Smile]

Mob rule and conspiracy really aren't sufficient grounds to hang a crazy wanna-be martyr based solely on his confession.

Nor is it enough to let a crazy wannabe martyr rot in prison.

quote:
That said, since he confessed, and because I don't care all that much, I ain't gots no problem with him taking what comes with that confession. But life imprisonment and standing outside his cell and whispering "Luzer, luzer, luzer..." is fitting enough punishment for me.
That's barbaric. We aren't supposed to have different standards of proof for the death penalty or for the rot box. What you've said is reason for just getting rid of the life sentence. If there's not enough evidence to kill a man, then we don't have enough evidence to rot him.

quote:
Were we talkin' Usama, or someone else? Hang the bastard, and then hang him a couple extra times, just to be sure. But this guy? Why give a crazy man martyrdom simply because he's willing to confess to something he didn't do? If he wants it, he should earn it and I'm all for remindin' him that he's even managed to screw that up.
If there's reasonable doubt, then they should put him in the rubber room of a high security nuthouse. Clearly the guy's dangerous, to himself if not to anyone else. That would be good propaganda, to treat terrorism as a mental illness.

But I completely reject the idea of giving someone a criminal sentence when we think he's innocent.

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EDanaII
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I don't think he's innocent, Pete. I just don't think he was as directly involved in the conspiracy as the prosecution claims. I'm inclined to agree with his defense lawyers that he's a crazy-terrorist-wanna-be and confessed to the crime solely to increase his "mojo."

quote:
That's barbaric. We aren't supposed to have different standards of proof for the death penalty or for the rot box. What you've said is reason for just getting rid of the life sentence. If there's not enough evidence to kill a man, then we don't have enough evidence to rot him.
And this is why I think you're being too serious about the subject. What I suggested I suggested in humor, not because I was seriously contemplating that it should be. [Smile]

Ed.

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livermeer kenmaile
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Moussoui (or however you spell it) looks like a youngish Semitic Otis a la the original Andy Griffith Show.

The courtroom. BArney Fife, as lead witness for the prosecution, loses his cool. Pointing his quivering finger at Andy, he shouts, 'But dang it, Andy! We've got to hang SOMEONE!'

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by EDanaII:
I don't think he's innocent, Pete. I just don't think he was as directly involved in the conspiracy as the prosecution claims. I'm inclined to agree with his defense lawyers that he's a crazy-terrorist-wanna-be and confessed to the crime solely to increase his "mojo."

Indirectly involved should be enough to hang him, given the gloating.


quote:
That's barbaric. We aren't supposed to have different standards of proof for the death penalty or for the rot box. What you've said is reason for just getting rid of the life sentence. If there's not enough evidence to kill a man, then we don't have enough evidence to rot him.
----And this is why I think you're being too serious about the subject. What I suggested I suggested in humor, not because I was seriously contemplating that it should be. [Smile]

Well sure. But give me the right to be angry at an idea, even if spoken in jest, when it's an idea that many other people say seriously. I'm not mad at you.
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