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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » Sic Transit Gloria Mundi (Pelegius's last post?) (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Sic Transit Gloria Mundi (Pelegius's last post?)
Pelegius
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If my life has been but a series of illusions and disillusions, which I often feel it has been, then Ornery has been a particularly harsh disillusion.

It was about a year ago I registered, and it was with great hopes of being able to express my vision of what the world could become, in this year I have never wavered from this vision and have been consistent in my views: supporting internationalism, defending the rights of the individual, attacking those who preached false sermons of hatred.

And so it was painful for me to discover that Ornery was not what it pretended to be and that, far from being taken seriously, I was treated with a mixture of hatred and contempt so that nothing I could ever say would be taken as being, in any way, valid or true.

Because of my youth and my view of morality, although I am alone in neither issue I am perhaps alone in having both handicaps, my ideas were treated as being the ideas of a lesser being, like the ideas of a dog that had learned to type and quote the occasional philosopher or poet. No number of sources that I brought in, ranging from factual support in Wikipedia to literary support in Hugo, could overcome the fact that I was months shy of my sixteenth birthday when I began to post and possessing a view which did not fall into complete agreement with the philosophies of either neo-liberalism or neo-conservativism. How dare this boy, it was asked, impugn upon our sacred views.

It is with a great sense of failure that I write these words, being unable to hold an unpopular position is a sign of weakness, is it not? But I am weak and weary beyond my sixteen years, knowing that my giants, who were not windmills, still stand because I could amass no force against them. And all my speeches were but whispers to the wind. I have not the strength to speak of semantics, feeling much as Tennyson's Ulysses although I cannot say that I leave any Telemachus behind with my scepter and my isle, nor that my strength at any time was great enough to move Earth and Heaven.

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DaveS
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Is this a farewell? There's a lesson surrounding this self-discovery in "Life of Pi", one of the books you (if it is you) cite on the Wiki page. We are the tiger, and the voyage you've taken here may not have been real. If you're really only 16, good luck on the long voyage you'll take that is, and remember to study and learn from the tiger.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
Because of my youth and my view of morality, although I am alone in neither issue I am perhaps alone in having both handicaps, my ideas were treated as being the ideas of a lesser being
If it's any consolation, I never treated your ideas as the ideas of a lesser being due to either your age or morality. [Wink]
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LetterRip
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Pelegius,

quote:

And so it was painful for me to discover that Ornery was not what it pretended to be and that, far from being taken seriously, I was treated with a mixture of hatred and contempt so that nothing I could ever say would be taken as being, in any way, valid or true.

I've not really seen anything in the way of hated or contempt. I think you are just experiencing the fact that you aren't nearly as knowledgable nor skilled in debate as you think you are.

Many individuals who have come here have found it frustrating because in their circle of friends they always win every arguement, whereas here they are lucky to argue 'to a draw'.

quote:
Because of my youth and my view of morality, although I am alone in neither issue I am perhaps alone in having both handicaps, my ideas were treated as being the ideas of a lesser being, like the ideas of a dog that had learned to type and quote the occasional philosopher or poet.
This is the internet, noone here has a clue about your age unless you make a point of telling people, and even then most of us forget it in a few days. The merit of your arguement is what sways people here, neither age nor idealism were a handicap to you.

quote:
No number of sources that I brought in, ranging from factual support in Wikipedia to literary support in Hugo, could overcome the fact that I was months shy of my sixteenth birthday when I began to post and possessing a view which did not fall into complete agreement with the philosophies of either neo-liberalism or neo-conservativism. How dare this boy, it was asked, impugn upon our sacred views.
Again nothing regarding age or idealism had any impact on your arguements. This is the first time I've known your age, and I suspect that is true for most of those who have debated with you. There is only a small percentage of individuals here who could even marginally be considered 'in complete agreement with the philosophies of neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism'.

LetterRip

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FIJC
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LOL, stop being such a drama queen. You're life isn't that bad, I'm sure, and neither is Ornery.
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Funean
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Besides, Pelegius, would you rather have been patronized? That's what you call it when people give you a pass because you're young.

Just a thought. Be well.

[Smile]

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Daruma28
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Pelegius, it is in fact that I found out your youth for which I have stopped jumping all over you whenever you posted. Only then did I understand the source of your high-minded idealism. As I was when I was 16, you're a know-it-all and no one can tell you otherwise. You may not even realize that that is how you are coming off, but I did not either at that age. Only when I got older and realized how much of the world and life that I didn't know anything about did I realize how insufferable and egocentric I was when I was your age.

Your posts often reek of self-righteousness, a sense of your absolute correctness and your bewilderment and amazement at how so many of us just cannot seem to see the light of absolute truth that you are deigning to enlighten us lesser intelligences with. It is this pervasive attitude coupled with your repeated demonstrations of a complete unwilllingess to ever reconsider your own position or to ever admit that you may be incorrect in your assumptions and arguments.

This has nothing to do with partisan ideaology, as you have managed to draw the ire of people from all sides of the ideological spectrum here. When you're getting hammered by RickyB AND Javelin in the same thread, it's quite obvious the differences are not simply ideologically based.

Hell, just look at your post in this thread. You are essentially coming off as, "I thought this was a place worthy of my enlightened ideas, but now I find you folks are not worthy and have fallen far short of my high expectations, so piss off, I'm outta here."

No matter how right your ideas and opinions may be, nobody wants to be corrected by someone who comes across as insufferable.

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Paladine
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I've probably been one of your harsher critics on this board, but it's certainly nothing personal.

quote:
I have never wavered from this vision and have been consistent in my views: supporting internationalism, defending the rights of the individual, attacking those who preached false sermons of hatred.
That's the problem. You have an absolutist, unwavering vision that doesn't jive well with the pragmatic realities of the real world. My only serious problems with you come in where you personally attack those of us who don't share your worldview as being racists or xenophobes.

Some people think that everyone who disagrees with them is less intelligent or less informed. You, at times, go beyond that and assume them to be less well-intentioned and less enlightened. Then, when they take exception to this and ascribe your tactics to immaturity, you bristle at the suggestion that your age could have anything to do with it.

quote:
And so it was painful for me to discover that Ornery was not what it pretended to be and that, far from being taken seriously, I was treated with a mixture of hatred and contempt so that nothing I could ever say would be taken as being, in any way, valid or true.
To whatever extent you're not taken seriously, it's because you virtually never concede points which you support scantily at best. I wasn't much older than you are now when I came here, and my age was never an issue. I like to think that's because I conduct myself respectfully and maturely even when making points forcefully. We can disagree vehemently and still act with grace and class.

And yes, you're right in saying that some of your opponents have failed to do this. For my part, if ever I've been guilty of this, point it out to me and you'll have my most sincere and heartfelt apologies.

But the fact that you haven't wavered in your "vision" even when soundly defeated in round after round of debate indicates that you aren't really interested in an exchange of ideas. Honestly, are you?

Most of us are here to learn, debate our views with others in good faith, and modify them when facts and logic so dictate. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's never seemed to me that you're interested in an honest exchange. It's always seemed that you're here with the assumption that you're absolutely right and we're absolutely wrong. If you believe that, that's fine. But that doesn't leave us much to talk about, does it?

The combination of vehemence, spotty debating skills, and a lack of information on a wide range of issues on which you've spoken with the most authoritative tone infuriates many of us here. It's not that we hate you or that we feel contempt because of your age. It's that you throw falsehoods out there with an air of absolute certainty and then imply or that we're the ones who are arrogant and wrong. Gloria mundi indeed.

Despite all that, I actually like you quite a bit. You aren't afraid to defend unpopular positions, and, despite my issues with how you conduct those defenses, there's something admirable in that. Your writing's improved greatly in your time here, and I've no doubt that good intentions underlie your sometimes bizarre positions. So, for my part, I hope you don't leave us; I hope you stay. But if you do, I hope you keep a more open mind and strive to conduct the debate more civilly. I hope you assume your opponents to be well-intentioned and well-informed unless they demonstrate otherwise, and that your opponents treat you in similar fashion.

[ April 07, 2006, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Paladine ]

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Pelegius
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I cannot help but be vehement in any view which I hold. The fact that these views have changed subtly over the past three years and dramaticly over the last five is somewhat troubling to me, but paradoxicaly also offers a degree of comfort, any and all changes I credit to maturity and the sucess of the Hegalian Dialectic. However, the basis of my views has not changed and I doubt that it ever can. I do not belief that this can be ascribed to my youth as I find these ideas backed up in the writings of Shakespeare, Hugo, Jefferson, Locke and in significant sections of the New Testement; perhaps I am foolish, but my foolishness cannot then be ascribed to naïfité: Jeferson was thirty-three when he wrote The Decleration of Independence and Hugo sixty when he wrote Les Miserables.
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Pelegius
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Paladine, despite your assurances, I have found bonne foi lacking here on Ornery.
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KidA
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Pelegius,

Granted I've been away for a few months, but as one of the other Ornery lefties, I must (much as it pains me) confess my agreement with FIJC, Daruma, and Paladine - on both the good and bad points.

Speaking as someone who is quite literally twice your age, I need make something clear - nobody who's 16 knows nuthin' about nuthin'. I'm not saying this as a put-down. You can't help being 16, and everyone in the world 17 and up has been 16 at some point. But until you've truly lived and aged, there are a number of things in life that you can't possibly know.

"Knowledge" in this case is more than just book-learning, or even expereince. As the years pass, there is some other process that occurs with an almost geological slowness - certain realizations about human nature that you will feel in your bones. And when these things finally happen to you, you will say to yourself "Wow...there is no way I could've understood that when I was 16."

One very big part of this is that the universe is indifferent to your convictions (and mine, and everyone else's). I know what it feels like to be filled with a sense of righteousness, and how it seemed that there was just something wrong with people who strongly disagreed with me. Well, there isn't. No one grasps more than a tiny portion of this big, wide world. As a consequence, you'll find that the most important traits in maintaining your idealism are humilty, and having a sense of humor. These are harder than you think, especially the latter, because it means learning not to be offended when your deepest ideals are mocked and abused from all directions.

I'm saying all of this because I don't think you should ever give up on arguing your points because of disappointment at the results. You are obviously extremely bright and well-read, and I think you have a lot to contribute. But if there is one thing humanity will provide you with in impossibly huge, exponentially increasing doses, it's disappointment. Disappointment is like some form of cosmic poop that is ever piling higher. You need to grow a thick skin and a ready laugh (keeping a good supply of Mark Twain in your library helps).

There may be many good reasons for you to leave Ornery (I come and go because my life "outside" keeps me busy, so I mostly post during slow periods at my day-job). But disappointment is not a good reason.

You are right that life is a serious of illusions and disillusions. There's a lot more to come, my friend! I'm only 32, and I know I've seen nowhere near the worst of it. No reason to let it bother you, it's just life. That being said, I don't think Ornery ever "pretended" to be anything. I think you are, instead, seeing your own expectations undone, and are externalizing the blame. Also, you are leaving out of this whole equation the fact that you might have much to learn from others on this forum - it's not just about "expressing your vision." It's got to be a 2-way street or you'll get nothing out of it.

Btw, nobody has the strength to move the Earth and the Wind. I mean,if I can move the couch without crippling myself I feel like Hercules. Lighten up!

Anyway, I wish you best in all future endeavors. I think you will soon learn to find a way to be more convincing in your arguments, and to hold them from a deeper understanding you can impart to others. Cheers!

-KidA

Edited to add:

I didn't know your age until today either.

[ April 07, 2006, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: KidA ]

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LetterRip
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Daruma,

quote:
did I realize how insufferable and egocentric I was when I was your age.
/me barely resists temptation [Smile]

LetterRip

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Richard Dey
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Ah, to be half a century younger -- and as smart as Pelegius! indeed, to have agreed with him so often (and still loathe Mahler!).

But a word of caution when you sign in under a different name, Pelegius: there is no difference between an idealist and a disillusioned idealist except the experience of loss.

So when you sign in under a different name (and give your age as mine), I'll have to take you less seriously [Wink] -- simply for the fact that I have taken you very seriously all along. Otherwise I shouldn't have been scrounging about trying to find reality to throw back in your face!

Reality is an ideal; ideal reality is an ideology. - Mullin, 1960 -

And do remind yourself what a bloody tyrant Mahler was on the podium! [Mad] Try something a bit more cheerful?

Whatever, the best from a great many of us, believe me. Sky.

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livermeer kenmaile
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Peleg:

Sorry you disenchanted with things. The thing I find most disenchanting in life is its dogged reality. The miracle of existence suffers from its unremitting consistency.

But it does provide a stable platform for ideals.

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Daruma28
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lmao - Not saying I can't be that way now LR...just that now I have the developed sense of self-awareness to realize that sometimes I may be acting that way and either rectify it or continue that tact (if I feel justified in doing so). I've been deeply humbled on many occasions since I was a know-it-all 16 year old.

Being humbled is experiencing either the proverbial or literal beatdown, and recognizing that your own words and/or actions have brought the beat down upon yourself.

Pelegius has been given the poverbial beatdown here at Ornery on multiple occasions, but has not attained the point of introspective self-awareness to even comprehend how he may possibly be wrong on any given point, or how he may have brought some of the harsh responses upon himself.

"It's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault!!!!"

Eventually, you shall learn otherwise Pelegius.

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canadian
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No, pelegius...you're right.

We're all unsufferable boors.

And I speak for everyone here.

Except maybe Ops and Fun, but they're chicks...whaddya gonna do?

The glass in the ass, though...to coin a phrase...is that you're not going to do much better anywhere else. If you do find something that is not an echo chamber or even more virulent, come on back and give us the scent, we'll track it down.

The stick in the di---oh never mind...just:

Good luck, don't take yourself so seriously...you'll just be embarrassed about it in the future, and if you want change, you're going to have set up the dominoes in small whispers, plagued by fits and starts, not bulldoze with the fury of righteous whinery.

To that end, here's to shatterproof bottles!

[ April 07, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: canadian ]

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TommySama
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"I have not the strength to speak of semantics, feeling much as Tennyson's Ulysses although I cannot say that I leave any Telemachus behind with my scepter and my isle, nor that my strength at any time was great enough to move Earth and Heaven."

... What?

Daruma had a good argument. You sound like one of those cold European intellectuals from the 1900's. And considering one of the last forums I read about what necrophilic gay ducks, I think mentioning Telemachus and ulysses is a little over the top.

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livermeer kenmaile
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As boors go, can, I find you sufferable.

"It's EVERYONE ELSE'S fault!!!!"

Damn that Everyone Else.

It sucks to be smarter than the average boor, Peleg.

" naïfité "

Wow. You've got cool twiddle knobs on your keypad. Umlauts and everything. I find it endearing that umlauts are also known, among those whose literary tastes lean toward the lyrics of heavy metal bands, as 'rock dots'.

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canadian
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lïvérméér kénmaïlé

Either that's rocking out hard, or just some pansy elvish....

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The Drake
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In many ways, Ornery is all about being taken down a peg - for all of us. If we wanted to simply slap other like-minded people on the back about how smart we are, and how perfect our vision for the world, we wouldn't be here.

There are no age groups on Ornery. This is the Open division, which can be good or bad, depending on your point of view. Regardless of age, education, place of origin, everyone is evaluated on the merit of their arguments.

I don't think any views here are considered "sacred" in the sense you write about them. You've spun quite a melodrama, starring yourself as the misunderstood teen. Common theme, and I think we've all felt that way during that time in our lives.

I think that you're obviously a very principled person, and that's a good thing. In time, you'll realize that quite a few people have the same principles and goals, even though you will argue with them vehemently about the way in which to bring those principles to fruition.

Just like I got pummeled in the "Son of" thread recently, even while my challengers and I acknowledged that we want mostly the same things for our society. In the end, I came away with deeper respect for those people, and it is that process that keeps me coming around here - either despite or because of the strong feeling it provokes.

Take it or leave it.

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Jesse
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Pelegius, I just found out how old you are, and I had you pegged for about 19-20. Take that as an insult, or a compliment...your call.

Don't take stuff that's said here too personaly, and when you realize that someone is just going out of their way to harras you....stop reading their posts.

Most of us are insuferable @holes from time to time, and even when we aren't we are sometimes percieved as such by people who bring their own baggage to our posts.

You've been one occassionaly. If you want to man up and admit you're doing it when you're doing it, you can maintain some respect. If you believe that other people aren't understanding your position, and that you need to clarify it to avoid offense you didn't intend to give, that works too.

So come on....it's not so hard.

"I was being a ***** to Ricky and Hannibal because they really p*ssed me off". You don't have to appologize if you don't want too. Just be honest about it.

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Haggis
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Pelegius,

There's rarely a thread that I post on where I don't get my ass kicked by somebody. It's just easier to take when you're 35.

As opposed to others who seem to be telling you to grow up, I hope you take these experiences on Ornery, both good and bad, and learn from them. Everybody was sixteen and I'm not going to tell you that your feelings are inappropriate. I will tell you that your feelings will likely be different if you experience a similar situation in a few years (Or even a couple of years). Meanwhile, have fun being sixteen and be well.

I for one will miss your idealism.

Peace.

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Hannibal
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Pelegius, you are 16, i am 22, thats not such a great difference, only i live in israel, where life goes much faster and also served 3 years in the army.

at anyrate, you are 16, think about it for a second, do you really know whats need to be done in the israeli - palestinian conflct?

both me and Ricky have diffent point of views, allthough not that different. and we both told you that you no nothing on what you are talking about, when you suggest your weird suggestions.

because its the truth, i dont post in more then half of the threads here, because i have no idea what they are all about.

i met israelis in the army, and in other places whom disagree with me to the level that i couldnt believe they are people of my coutry (take star lisa for instance, but thankfully she is in the states now)

so what? so people disagree with you? so people said that you know nothing about what you are talking about.

instead of pouting how bad and blinded to the truth we are why dont you check this out?

i honestly recommend that at 18, come to israel and volunteer a year and a half in the israeli army, it will only do you good.

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livermeer kenmaile
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quote:
pansy elvish....
Well, everyone knows the truth about Frodo and Sam.
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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by livermeer kenmaile:
quote:
pansy elvish....
Well, everyone knows the truth about Frodo and Sam.
Well, that didn't really become apparent until the Brokeback Mount Doom sequence of the film.... [Eek!]
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livermeer kenmaile
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Why does age confer something that at least smells like wisdom?

Because for most of us only time grants us the amplitude of conceptual space, memory, perspective, whatever, to place the stupidity of others and ourselves at sufficient remove to let us put to use, pracitcal and cogitative, the few things we (and they) have managed to learn over time.

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javelin
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Well, Pelegius, as someone who has been quite harsh on you, consistently, I'll say a few things:

1. I didn't know how old you were.

2. I'll admit here and now that your posting style and what seems to me to be your general attitude, has always annoyed me - most definitely more than it should have. For the many times I should have just kept my mouth shut, I apologize.

3. I have been, in general, quite impressed with the general IMPROVEMENT in your ability to post a cogent argument with reasonable sourcing, since you first posted on this site. As a matter of fact, it's been quite awhile since you've, IMHO, come completely out of left field with unsourced (and in my view, unsourcable) assertions about various things.

4. I've been amazed, with this crowd, that you haven't been called to the carpet more often. People here are very critical of each other's posting style, and can be very insistent on people providing good sourcing, and in insisting that people own up to the stupid things we say about each other. I was shocked when you were called on the carpet about what was said about RickyB, and hopeful that you would respond positively. I was disappointed when you did not (IMHO, of course), and finally succumbed to my urge to add to the indictment.

Regardless, in spite of my general attitude towards you, I hope that I am not one of the reasons you have decided (if you have) that posting here is not a good thing for you. If it will help, I will do my best to do BETTER at ignoring the things about your posts that make my hair curl, and try to consider them sans those issues in the future.

Sincerly,

Javelin

[ April 07, 2006, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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livermeer kenmaile
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As far as not liking being dismissed for being young, just wait 2030 years. Then you can be dismissed for being old and crotchedy and thinking you know more than folks 20-30 years younger than yourself. Why someday you might find yourself putting some youngblood like yourself in his place -- and noting how he just won't stay there, durn it.
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TomDavidson
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quote:
As far as not liking being dismissed for being young, just wait 2030 years.
In all fairness, kenmeer, this IS probably an unreasonable request. The poor kid would be lucky to make it half that long. [Smile]
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DaveS
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quote:
Because for most of us only time grants us the amplitude of conceptual space, memory, perspective, whatever, to place the stupidity of others and ourselves at sufficient remove to let us put to use, pracitcal and cogitative, the few things we (and they) have managed to learn over time.
I can't tell you how much I like this comment, because I have a deep suspicion that it means something, and an equal concern that it is pure gibberish. That's par for the course around these parts. Like Pelegius, I never used to have that sort of doubt, and didn't need to because I was then still immortal and things were crystal clear. At the moment, I'm somewhere between 32 and 2030 years old and mortal (still). Pelegius, welcome to the avuncularium.
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livermeer kenmaile
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"The poor kid would be lucky to make it half that long"

Shhh... he's immortal. Shhh....

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livermeer kenmaile
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"I have a deep suspicion that it means something, and an equal concern that it is pure gibberish"

High praise. I can ask no greater honor. (ritual salaam)

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RickyB
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So, should I address you here, or at the thread thaty precipitated this crisis?

In any case, nobody's holding you by force. If you become upset with the reactions your posting style generates, and are utterly unwilling to consider that perhaps an adjustment on your part is in order, then perhaps it is indeed best that you leave us imperfect beings to our own devices.

In fact, I didn't even know for sure that you're that young. I thought you were in your early 20's. In any case, we don't have a special style of retort for precocious yet annoying teens here (not that I've noticed, anyway). You want to participate? Take your lumps with everyone else.

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Paladine
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quote:
I cannot help but be vehement in any view which I hold.
This is part of what we mean by immaturity. If I don't know many of the specifics of a situation but have a relatively uninformed opinion, supported by a few facts and my general ideological framework, I sit back and listen respectfully to all sides of the issue and try to learn more. When I venture to express an opinion with a high degree of certainty, it's strongly supported by the facts of the situation in question.

Still, sometimes I find that no matter how good my research, there are things for which I've failed to account. People here and elsewhere aren't shy about pointing that out, and while I'll defend my opinions and stances forcefully sometimes I'm forced by the logic of those opposing me to re-examine my position. Sometimes I'm even forced to concede.

For a long time I thought that intelligent design was currently good science being unfairly attacked by the scientific/academic establishment. The force of the arguments brought against my position on this board forced me to publicly concede that I was in fact mistaken. It was a painful admission, to be sure.

But learning is a process, not an end. It's a process that begins with admitting that we are and ever shall be imperfect beings with an imperfect understanding of the world around us; it's a process that begins with admitting that we have more to learn from others than do others from us. Humanity has much more to teach me than I do it.

So whether or not you stick around here, I hope you learn to approach your future interactions and relationships with an open mind. I've never understood true-believer, absolutist types who also claim an affinity for diversity and egalitarianism. If you're certainly right and your opponents certainly wrong, what's the value in diversity of thought? If people like me are uninformed and/or ill-intentioned, why talk to us at all?

More to the point....why do you care what we think about you or your views if you're so certain about the fundamental truths underlying your position? It's incomprehensible to me that you could be so hurt by the opinions of idiots, racists, and xenophobes.

I'd like to understand what's going on in your head, because I'm a supremely logical person and I just can't make sense of it. [Frown]

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Paladine
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Ricky-

In fairness, he does have a point. People tend to clusterfrack him much more than is par for the course. I might've been guilty of it on the other thread.

He might be a little guy trying to figure out how to ride a book according to an instruction manual, but at least he cares enough to pick the thing up in the first place, which is more than I can say of most. Maybe we should help him ride the thing instead of making fun of him when he falls off?

I didn't care for his tactics in that thread, to be sure, but there've been numerous occasions when people pile on him more than necessary and resort to ad hominem. There's enough blame to go around, methinks.

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Pete at Home
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Pelegius, I was probably your harshest critic in the beginning, but I hope that you've noticed that I've changed my opinion of you in recent months and have enjoyed a number of your posts. For one thing, you have the capacity to apologize when you find you are wrong, which makes you more mature than some of the oldies here.

On the one hand, you do have a lot to learn. On the other hand, maybe you still know some things that we have forgotten as we dwindle towards middle age. Like Wordsworth I think that we come into this world with the light of heaven still in our eyes. Or like Pink Floyd said, "I cannot put my finger on it now, the child is grown, the dream is gone. I have become comfortably numb."

The difference in point of view between the ages, could also make for interesting discussions. Taking into account age differences doesn't mean patronizing. You need to take our ages into account too, and exercise the same sort of extra patience that we all have to use when dealing with someone with a different point of view.

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The Drake
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I'd rather mock the person for trying to ride a book in the first place. [Big Grin]
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RickyB
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You have a point, Paladine. But people tend to pile on him because of the combination of absolute (and very often unfounded) certainty, use of inflammatory rhetoric AND utter refusal to back down.

I might be guilty of what you call ad-hominem attacks, but I see them as attempts to explain why he pisses me off so much.

Finally, at the risk of being insufferably condescending, now that I know he's 16, I'll find his stuff a lot less annoying. However, he might find my reactions even more so [Big Grin]

P.S. I didn't know you changed your mind on ID. Kudos (double - for doing and for admitting) [Smile]

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pickled shuttlecock
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Man, I love this board.

Someone pass the popcorn?

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RickyB
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LOL
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