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Everard
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An interesting observation while at temple tonight for my step-sisters auf roof...

"And on the seventh day, I rested, and was restored."

God commands the jewish people to observe the sabbath for the above reason. I've READ that before, but never really noticed the word "restored" in there. Implicit in that idea is the idea that god is not omnipotent.

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Naldiin
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It doesn't say God had to rest. Just that God chose to rest, and was restored. If you empty two liters out of an infinately large, but totally full glass, then it is still carrying an infinate amount of water.

But still two liters less than what it was before.

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0Megabyte
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Hmm. What part of the Bible do you say it mentions the restoring part? I have not seen that.
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The Drake
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Ummm, that's not true, Naldiin.

Infinity - 1 = Infinity.

Or divided by 798. Or any other operation.

You can't have "infinity" amount of water - even at scout camp. (Thanks, Napoleon)

To understand infinity, take a circle and run your finger around it. It is infinitely long. What happens if you take a segment out of the circle, and have a smaller circle? Still infinitely long. (Math purists back off, I know you won't like that analogy).

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halfhaggis
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Dammit Drake. I wanted to point that out (but I'll let you off on the circle analogy).
Everyone else always takes away my fun here

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Hannibal
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there are infinite types of infinity. but there are two basic types that form all the rest of them

we measure the "size" of infinity by powers.

for instance the power of all the natural numbers N is א0 the power of all the Real (R) numbers is א. note that א>א0 .

groups with the power of א0 are infinite, but are orderable, that is, each member of the group's position is known, and it is possible to tell what comes before and after that member just like the natural numbers, where you can tell, what comes for instance, before and after 34.
on the other hand, even the power of the real numbers between 0 and 1, is א why is that? because for every real fruction, no matter how close you get, you still cant tell what comes right before it, and right after.

all of that said, if you deduce a finite number of members (= a group with a numeric power) from an infinite group, even א0 you still get an infinite group.

to know whats the power of various groups you need to form a function between the new group, and those basic types of groups i mentioned above.

if you manage to make an injective and surjective function, then those groups's powers are equal.

if you want me to continue this head trhobbing explanation on discrete mathematics tell me [Smile]

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halfhaggis
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More on topic:
I'd say that God having to rest on the 7th day implies a lack of omnipotence, even without explicitly stating that He was restored.
Why would there be a need to rest if you are all-powerful?

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Automath
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I take it as meaning it only took him 6 days to create it all, and the sabbath is for the rest of mankind.
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halfhaggis
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Interesting: I've just checked my copy of the Good News Edition of the Bible.
Genesis 2:3
"He blessed the seventh day, because by that day he had completed his creation and stopped working."

With this translation it doesn't actually say anything about resting. Rather it says that the 7th day was the day everything was completed by.
I guess the people producing the Good News Edition also had some reservations about an omnipotent God needing to rest.

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flydye45
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Someone get the Hebrew!
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Everard
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The passage I am thinking of is in exodus, probably the ten commandments section? but I can't remember for sure...

found it. exodus 31:17

Oh. And here's the hebrew, too

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/31-17.htm

[ April 08, 2006, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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potemkyn
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"Why would there be a need to rest if you are all-powerful?"
Who said it was a need? Perhaps it was solely a desire?

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aupton15
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I think the rules of Ornery prevent us from speculating on God's motives for resting. Or does that only apply to members?
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halfhaggis
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:


Oh. And here's the hebrew, too

http://scripturetext.com/exodus/31-17.htm

And every other imaginable language -- except Klingon.
Anyway, that text makes it quite clear that god rested, and was possibly refreshed, depending on the interpretation you want to accept.

quote:
"Why would there be a need to rest if you are all-powerful?"
Who said it was a need? Perhaps it was solely a desire?

Sure. I have considered that. The desire to rest.

What brings on the desire to rest?
I usually rest when I'm tired, or feeling lazy. Sometimes I rest when I'm depressed. I just don't get out of bed at all and do nothing all day.
I can't think of another reason to rest. If I'm not tired, feeling lazy or in a state of depression I like to do something.

I exclude recreation from the rest category. That's not rest, that's doing something -- even if it's just passively watching a movie (although that is debatable (but isn't everything here on Ornery (excessive parenthesis -- sorry))).

Perhaps my definition of rest is narrow, but I'm using it anyway. I propose that if God simply desired rest (as opposed to needing it), then God is either tired, lazy, or depressed.
Would an omnipotent god have any of these characteristics?

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halfhaggis
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quote:
Originally posted by aupton15:
I think the rules of Ornery prevent us from speculating on God's motives for resting. Or does that only apply to members?

[Big Grin]
I think it's only members. I hope God isn't a member, 'cause then I'm in the poo. [Razz]

[ April 08, 2006, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: halfhaggis ]

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potemkyn
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halfhaggis,

What about admiring a good piece of art? Is that resting? Perhaps God was done creating and desired to relax and watch his creation in action. Sounds like a rest to me, and has absolutely nothing to do with being tire, lazy, or depressed. I know I've done this after doing some particularly interesting work. Sit back and enjoy the furits of my labor, not because I'm tired but because I want to enjoy what I've done. Maybe that's just me though.

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Hannibal
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ביני ובין בני ישראל--אות הוא לעלם כי ששת ימים עשה יהוה את השמים ואת הארץ וביום השביעי שבת וינפש

וינפש = to have a holiday

it doesnt nessaserilly mean to rest for the sake of resting

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halfhaggis
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Ok. I probably should have done this from the outset, but then I probably wouldn't have posted anything and what fun would that have been?

Dictionary.com provides the following handy definition. I've not included irrelevent meanings of rest.

quote:

1. Cessation of work, exertion, or activity.
2. Peace, ease, or refreshment resulting from sleep or the cessation of an activity.
3. Sleep or quiet relaxation.
4. The repose of death: eternal rest.
5. Relief or freedom from disquiet or disturbance.
6. Mental or emotional tranquillity.
7. Termination or absence of motion.

No "admiring a good piece of art" in the definition, so no, that's not resting. [Wink]

Seriously, the first two definitions indicate that rest is essentially the cessation of activity.
The definitions get increasingly grim: sliding down to death and finally the total termination of motion and a cold, frozen, lifeless universe (I struggle with the being serious thing).
Based on the first two definitions I have to concede that it is unreasonable to expect God to be permanently busy.
Omnipotent doesn't imply constantly active.

So, my stand-point beginning to crumble, I fall back on Everard's original idea. The need for restoration implying weakness, and thus nullifying god's omnipotence.

Back where we started then.
But this proves that God is a cultural nihilist!
(An ornery thread just isn't a real ornery thread without that term thrown in somewhere).

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halfhaggis
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Ah. I see a more direct translation has been provided. Thanks Hannibal.

Not sure whether I should revise anything I've written or not in light of the new information. But I can't be bothered, so I won't

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Hannibal
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i just translated to you the hebrew word halfhaggis

(i am israeli so i can do that without much difficulties)

edit:
ok [Smile] so pretend like there is no sarcasm and sting in my post [Smile]

[ April 08, 2006, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

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Richard Dey
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And I was insulted when somebody said God what a lazy bastard! He wasn't talking about me at all! The secrets of life are all in the punctuation, and the Jews didn't have any yet!
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halfhaggis
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halfhaggis is a hebrew word?
And it means "to have a holiday."

That's weird. [Smile]

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livermeer kenmaile
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A guy wouldn't be very omnipotent if he couldn't kick it when he felt like it...
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