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Author Topic: Specter is the Lowest of the Low
Godot
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I am so pissed. And Arlen Specter is such a creep. He keeps spouting off on the record that he will hold the administration's feet to the fire for breaking the law. He comes off as some kind of caped crusader, but it seems the cape on this lying weasel is only made of toilet paper.

Jack Cafferty (CNN) was right when he said that Specter, "has turned out to be yet another gutless Republican worm cowering in the face of pressure from the administration and fellow Republicans."

BACKGROUND:
First Specter pretends he gives a sh_t about defending the laws of this country from this administration's malfeasance, but Walter Pincus of the Washington Post writes that Specter is proposing amnesty for FISA violators (hence the Cafferty response).

Then, Specter denied the amnesty claim saying, "If anybody has violated the law, they'll be held accountable, both as to criminal conduct and as to civil conduct. And in no way did I promise amnesty or immunity or letting anybody off the hook."

But now, the markup of Specter's proposed bill is available and, lo and behold, it not only promises amnesty, but RETROACTIVE amnesty for the criminals. All for people who claim they already have the Constitutional authority to break any damn law they choose.

If we had the same Republican representatives we had when Nixon was president, Bush would already be on the street, but this crop will go to any lengths to cover up for his sins. Sickening.

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javelin
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<sarcasm>This is exactly the kind of post that makes Ornery so great.</sarcasm>

Can you perhaps add some facts/quotes, etc. to the bill, etc. that would allow us to form an opinion on the issue that isn't only informed by your opinion? I would truly appreciate it.

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DonaldD
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I thought this was going to be about Phil Specter
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livermeer kenmaile
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Go google yourself silly, jav. The poster gave you PLENTY opf information to retrieve relavent data on your own. Don't forget to tell him that his mother dresses him funny while you're at it. And his haircut's lame. And his girlfriend has a whiny nasal voice. And...
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flydye45
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So a Republican is low, but the opposition, who could stand up shoulder to shoulder and stop all Senate business until this is resolved gets a free pass.

Let me go into looneyville, but maybe this is more of a gray area then people want to suggest.

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canadian
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quote:
Originally posted by livermeer kenmaile:
Don't forget to tell him that his mother dresses him funny while you're at it. And his haircut's lame. And his girlfriend has a whiny nasal voice. And...

Have you been spying on me?

[ June 16, 2006, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: canadian ]

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by livermeer kenmaile:
Go google yourself silly, jav. The poster gave you PLENTY opf information to retrieve relavent data on your own. Don't forget to tell him that his mother dresses him funny while you're at it. And his haircut's lame. And his girlfriend has a whiny nasal voice. And...

I don't do people's homework for them. If someone wants to do something more than rant, they should be able to step up and show us the work they did in the first place. If the poster wants the reader to put it all together for themselves, they need to not be surprised when they are ignored. Sound familiar?
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canadian
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quote:
Originally posted by javelin:
If the poster wants the reader to put it all together for themselves, they need to not be surprised when they are ignored. Sound familiar?

Have you been spying on me?
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javelin
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[Big Grin] Do you find yourself that interesting? Wait, should I be spying on you? *puts tinfoil hat back on*
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canadian
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Merely economical. Cut and paste never smelled so good.
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velcro
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Fly,

So you are assigning equal blame to the party who instigates the amnesty, and the party who declines to shut down government in order to stop the amnesty?

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velcro
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BTW, DonaldD, you crack me up.
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Rallan
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quote:
Originally posted by velcro:
Fly,

So you are assigning equal blame to the party who instigates the amnesty, and the party who declines to shut down government in order to stop the amnesty?

Damn right he is. Although they haven't had anything to do with the government's illegal wiretapping scheme, the Democrats are clearly every bit as responsible as the Republicans for not derailing the entire legislative branch of government and forcing an unprecedented constitutional crisis [Smile]
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The Drake
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Washington Post article

That is the original article that apparently triggered the hyperbole-laden opinion rant above, which rises to the standard of our most outspoken pundits, as discussed on a recent thread.

There are the links, but is up to Godot to tell us how we are supposed to extrapolate that to the wild claims above.

In my opinion, Specter's challenge of this policy has been loud and public. Exactly the kind of non-partisan voice that is needed to stop such abuses.

Putting people in jail is not important - stopping this practice is of critical importance. And if that is the compromise he has to make to safeguard liberty, I support him.

[ June 18, 2006, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: The Drake ]

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javelin
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Thanks Drake.
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DaveS
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From the article linked by TD:
quote:
Another part of the Specter bill would grant blanket amnesty to anyone who authorized warrantless surveillance under presidential authority, a provision that seems to ensure that no one would be held criminally liable if the current program is found illegal under present law.
Doesn't this support Godot's contention?
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The Drake
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his contention? you mean this?

"Arlen Specter is such a creep. He keeps spouting off on the record that he will hold the administration's feet to the fire for breaking the law. He comes off as some kind of caped crusader, but it seems the cape on this lying weasel is only made of toilet paper."

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DaveS
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quote:
There are the links, but is up to Godot to tell us how we are supposed to extrapolate that to the wild claims above.
Were you asking him to justify "creep...caped crusader...weasel" or "amnesty?"
quote:
his contention? you mean this?
I assumed you meant "amnesty."
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The Drake
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Okay, so here's the deal. Did he lie on CNN about what was in the markup bill? Apparently. But that's not what we should focus on. Here's the post Godot should have made...

Separation of powers are at risk

According to this ACLU release, there's something rotten about the bill Arlen Specter is sponsoring.

Emphasis mine.

quote:
Senator Specter’s “National Security Surveillance Act” (S.2453) would essentially end any congressional investigation into the warrantless NSA program by amending FISA to allow the court to approve NSA monitoring of Americans without any evidence they are conspiring with al Qaeda.

He also has a substitute to that legislation written to win administration support by amending the criminal code to allow wiretapping at the direction of the president without any independent check. This move would create a retroactive exception to criminal liability when warrantless wiretapping is done at the president’s direction under a claim of inherent authority and make future court review of surveillance of Americans optional. The bill would also permit the president to claim a right to conduct secret searches of American homes and businesses in wartime.

Assuming ACLU's assessment is accurate, this is so not cool. The retroactivity is the least of our problems.

[ June 19, 2006, 08:06 AM: Message edited by: The Drake ]

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DaveS
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Right, thanks for clarifying. I didn't think you were diametrically opposed to the point within his post.
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livermeer kenmaile
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"So a Republican is low, but the opposition, who could stand up shoulder to shoulder and stop all Senate business until this is resolved gets a free pass.

Let me go into looneyville, but maybe this is more of a gray area then people want to suggest."

Looneyville has vacancy. That Specter, who appears to be in effective charge of the mess about which complaint is made, has been criticized alone in no way gives his peers a free pass. It just means that they haven't been targeted for criticism, at least not just yet.

Should we enact an equal opportunity censure affirmative action program?

"I don't do people's homework for them."

As should be. But to expect them to do *your* homework for you, and to then demean the quality of their claims because *you* haven't vetted them and feel it incumbent upon them to vet their claims for you, is to expect quite a bit... and will probably get you a bit more than you aked for. See, for my example, my post to you above.

"If someone wants to do something more than rant, they should be able to step up and show us the work they did in the first place. If the poster wants the reader to put it all together for themselves, they need to not be surprised when they are ignored"

If only you'd just ignored him, THEN you would have a justoifying platform on which to stand. As for rants, I note that godot's pening statement in his post was (*ahem*): "I am so pissed."

Want some sausage with those missing links?

[ June 19, 2006, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: livermeer kenmaile ]

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livermeer kenmaile
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"Have you been spying on me?"

Nah. Your girlfriend talks in her sleep [Wink]

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javelin
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quote:
As should be. But to expect them to do *your* homework for you, and to then demean the quality of their claims because *you* haven't vetted them and feel it incumbent upon them to vet their claims for you, is to expect quite a bit... and will probably get you a bit more than you aked for. See, for my example, my post to you above.
I'm afraid you aren't standing on solid ground when you assert that it's my job to research anyone else's assertions. That way lies madness. If you want someone to take you seriously, when you make an assertion, then either back it up or show the logic. If you don't find this to be useful, then I repeat to you also - don't be surprised when your "arguments" are ignored.

quote:
If only you'd just ignored him, THEN you would have a justoifying platform on which to stand. As for rants, I note that godot's pening statement in his post was (*ahem*): "I am so pissed."

Want some sausage with those missing links?

So, you missed the part where Godot's unsubstantiated assertions were roundly ignored by everyone? The fact that the only reason people are discussing anything on this thread is because another poster made assertions and then bothered to back them up? Oh, and the side show of the "Kenmeer thinks that Javelin is out of line for pointing out that an argument that isn't backed up is worthless."
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livermeer kenmaile
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"I'm afraid you aren't standing on solid ground when you assert that it's my job to research anyone else's assertions. "

Ain't your job, pod'ner. But due diligence has ever been one's own.

"So, you missed the part where Godot's unsubstantiated assertions were roundly ignored by everyone?"

I seem to see at least one person commenting on godot's comments. Kick thine ownself, brother.

You can start ignoring me (and godot) anytime you wish, Jav. Not that it's your *job* to do so, but it is your prerogative.

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The Drake
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I wonder if I should repeat my research in a new post, since many already have this thread set to [/ignore]...
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javelin
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quote:
Ain't your job, pod'ner. But due diligence has ever been one's own.
And I certainly, clearly, did mine.

quote:
I seem to see at least one person commenting on godot's comments. Kick thine ownself, brother.
Care to share? Because as far as I can tell, the only comments on this thread are either about what I've talked about (backing up one's assertions, or at least defending them), or about the situation itself, pretty much disconnected from Godot's comments.

quote:
You can start ignoring me (and godot) anytime you wish, Jav. Not that it's your *job* to do so, but it is your prerogative.
Gee, thanks for your permission. I think I'll manage just fine doing what I have been doing.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by The Drake:
I wonder if I should repeat my research in a new post, since many already have this thread set to [/ignore]...

Might be a good idea, Drake. I do, again, appreciate you doing the research.
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Godot
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Drake,

I appreciate your research too.

I might have been inclined to post facts/quotes for Jav), but for his snarky attitude. (Although I thought I did post facts along with my reaction to them, just not quotes.)

My fervency agaist Specter is because he lies. Pretty much the same reason I feel so strongly about Bush (along with breaking the law repeatedly). Specter makes public statements about how he will uphold the rule of law and I dutifully believe him thankful that at least one Republican will stop line dancing to the White House tune long enough to try and safeguard our democracy. Then he shows his true colors and I get PO-ed. This is the same thing that happened with the Iraq invasion. Bush and Colin Powell said we should go (and I hadn't done my own due dilligence to investigate their claims) and I agreed. Shame on me.

[ June 21, 2006, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Godot ]

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javelin
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quote:
I might have been inclined to post facts/quotes for Jav), but for his snarky attitude. (Although I thought I did post facts along with my reaction to them, just not quotes.)
I apologize for coming across that way. Feel free to let me know if I do in the future, and I'll do my best to rephrase.
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Godot
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Jav,

I rarely get time to come to Ornery these days, but now and in the past you have shown yourself to be a decent person.

No harm done.

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javelin
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Thanks for the understanding, Godot.
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