posted
Stolen from the Misc thread, because I'M interested:
quote:Originally posted by Omega M.: Has anyone here heard about the "Hadji Girl" video, which was posted on youtube.com and "contains images of what is said to be a Marine in Iraq singing a song that seems to glorify killing an Iraqi young girl"? And apparently someone has claimed responsibility for it, though the Marines haven't charged him yet.
Well, that guy's life is over.
quote:Originally posted by Dave at Work: First off Omega M, have you read the lyrics to the entire song or have you only seen what is in the two links that you supplied? Have you looked at anything concerning this beyond the two links that you supplied? Are you aware that last year a group of servicemen stationed in Iraq started a rap group which got international praise for content considerably more offensive than the actual content of this video? Do you approve of having the first ammendment rights of American Servicemen stomped on by our military at the insistence of groups like CAIR? Are you comfortable with the double standard applied to these two different groups of servicemen for similar creative output? If you are actually interested in exploring the situation and discussing it start a thread on the subject and I will try to dig up some links to get you started.
posted
It occurs to me that this is yet another reason why we shouldn't be using the military as police. They're just not capable of serving in a civil manner.
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quote:Originally posted by TomDavidson: It occurs to me that this is yet another reason why we shouldn't be using the military as police. They're just not capable of serving in a civil manner.
So are you saying that a policeman would never have done that? Are you able to somehow prove that there is something that's intrinsic in a member of the armed forces that means they can't serve in a civil manner?
Maybe you mean something else by your comment, but I see it as nothing but a slander of our armed forces based solely on your low opinion of them.
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posted
sfallman - yes. It's not slander at all. If you ask a technician to do the work of a programer, it won't work either.
The entire orientation of the soldier and the policeman is totally different. That was one of the hugest failings of the "post-war" plan by the administration - that they didn't prepare for peace keeping.
I remember seeing a CNN clip from Baghdad on April 10th, 2003 (day after we took the city). there was a Marine there standing in the middle of a street with looters running all around him, shouting: "We're not peace keepers! They didn't train ux for this!!!" Was he slandering himself?
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posted
Why would this incident be something that would separate a soldier from a cop? That sounds rather silly. Are we saying that a cop never says something stupid and/or demeaning about those he/she is serving?
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posted
of course they do, but I think you'll agree that the training and mindset between the two types of forces are different in some important ways...
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Gary
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by sfallmann: Maybe you mean something else by your comment [TomDavidson's comment that military personnel are not capable of serving in a civil manner], but I see it as nothing but a slander of our armed forces based solely on your low opinion of them.
I agree with sfallmann that this is a terrible insult to the honor and integrity of military men and women. Most are very capable, upstanding men and women serving with great honor and integrity in a difficult situation. Of course there are a few bad ones - there always is - but on the whole these guys are the best America has to offer.
quote: The entire orientation of the soldier and the policeman is totally different. That was one of the hugest failings of the "post-war" plan by the administration - that they didn't prepare for peace keeping.
Yes, the orientation of military to police is different. Many police forces have a motto of "Protect and Serve" while the military is focused on killing people and breaking things. Anytime you put someone trained to destroy the eenemy in the role of peacekeeper, you're going to have problems. However, putting the military in the role of peacekeeper has become common - it seems to be the desired role liberals assign to the military. under Clinton, the military was used as peace keeping forces all over the world (e.g. Kosovo) with often disasterous results that led to even more bloodshed and loss of American prestige (e.g. Somalia and it's emboldening of Bin Laden/militant Islam). Blaming the Bush administration for following the same path as previous administrations is selective memory at best.
As for "Hadji Girl", you can see it performed here and these are the lyrics:
quote:Hadji Girl I was out in the sands of Iraq And we were under attack And I, well, I didn't know where to go. And the first thing I could see was Everybody's favorite Burger King So I threw open the door and I hit the floor. Then suddenly to my surprise I looked up and I saw her eyes And I knew it was love at first sight. And she said
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah Hadji girl I can't understand what you're saying. And she said Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah Hadji girl I love you anyway.
Then she said that she wanted me to see. She wanted me to meet her family But I, well, I couldn't figure out how to say no. Cause I don't speak Arabic. So, she took me down an old dirt trail. And she pulled up to a side shanty And she threw open the door and I hit the floor. Cause her brother and her father shouted
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah They pulled out their AKs so I could see And they said Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah
So I grabbed her little sister and pulled her in front of me. As the bullets began to fly The blood sprayed from between her eyes And then I laughed maniacally Then I hid behind the TV And I locked and loaded my M-16 And I blew those little f***ers to eternity. And I said
Durka Durka Mohammed Jihad Sherpa Sherpa Bak Allah They should have known they were f***ing with a Marine
Dave at work mentioned the rap lyrics that received praise last year, here are those lyrics:
quote:I hear is momma cryin But I still scream ****em Unload my magazine on this buster That’s how I say ****em You know we don’t trust em
Let them all lie dead in a dirt bed With a bullet in his head Rest in peace to all my soldiers Got a lot on my head
Now turn the combinations To release my thoughts Im fed up with all this Save the word talk
Right heres were the ****em starts And the piece stops ****em
If he aint got no food ****em
If he aint got no shoes Cause I Got everything to live for He got nothing to lose… ****em
I know my thoughts are not fair But im fighting for my country And I, wonder sometimes If my country even cares
But ****em
If he pull that trigger once Man he’ll do it again So when he ran out a bullets put the weapon down He must a thought the violence was gon end
****em
Killem alls what my heart say So my finger gladly replies With a 5.56, or a 7.62 Right between his eyes ****em
5 to 55 (what) my bullets don’t discriminate so if you think that im wrong get me outta here you can gladly take my place ****em
chorus this is war round here when we see um ****em everybody on the streets when we see um ****em
they callin cease fires but they keep firin ****em I got no love for them Pussy niggaz here ****em
They trying to see us all dead over here ****em But I aint trying to get bled over here ****em They even look like they bout to do something Lay em down put 50 rounds in they stomach ****em
V2 Started off kinda professional But now this **** is personal Niggaz learn when red crosses And sirens come to they rescue
And its always getting serious When hot barrels get pointed at you Don’t give a **** about yalls lives Now that im guarding mine more careful
Treat everyday just the like the first day Examples can be made out you And any day could be your last day And experience wont help you
And I’ll be damned if im scared Cause me runnin is not an issue And just think Somebody at the crib might miss you
Wish your wife and children Wishin For you stepped they woulda kissed you When all that be said is daddy died Bein a damn fool
If you got nothing to lose Take a chance when convoys ride thru 50 cals and 240’s like 360’s and quarter miles dude
and its, always getting serious just thought I would remind you niggaz thought process delirious not chancing what the next might do
and I still don’t think yall hearin even though yall should find time to you can love us and never hate us and that’s the bottom line dude
v3 just puttem on the same block with me im poppin off till all 7 of these magazines is empty no, they will not get me
though they’ve come close to hittin me so far they missed me only managed to piss me off now I react more quickly
and I will never lay down nor will anybody with me keep my boots laced up tighter than ****… lets go
till we dead in the street or its time to come home yeah we don held down the block 4 mo****ers strong
and we don popped off a few times new we was dead wrong wish they’d let god judgem cause my judgement is off
and though I try not to playem they hand me his role so in his image I judgem ****em they got to go
no I aint trying to be they jury but this is all they’ll give me so in return all I can givem is a verdict of guilty
and carry out they sentence of death for they kill me they self they trying to dance with the devil but I only dance by myself… ****em
"Hadji Girl" is clearly a spoof designed for humor and has mch less 'sensitive' content than the rap song. Why is one praised and the other maligned? Could race be a factor?
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quote:Are we saying that a cop never says something stupid and/or demeaning about those he/she is serving?
No, they've just learned not to do it on camera. Posts: 1771 | Registered: Oct 2004
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KnightEnder
unregistered
posted
There both bull****. But that's what you get when your army is made up of uneducated kids and commanded by an idiot puppet manipulated by corporations.
Jeez, force them to read one book written by a Vietnam Vet before they are allowed to join up. At least then they won't be so suprised when they realize that war is crap and nobody in the government cares about their lives.
posted
Much ado about nothing, it seems. Yes, this week's song is juvenile - the musical equivalent of pulling at the corner of one's eyes and saying "ah so, me like flied lice" - but otherwise meaningless aside from showing just how sophomoric 22 year old soldiers can be.
As for the second song, except for the "expletives deleted" spicing things up, what exactly is the problem with it? OK, it's somewhat more political, but some of the meme's I would expect war apologists to approve of. For instance the whole "if you don't like what I'm doing here, why don't you come over and try your hand at it" thing...
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Gary
unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: There both bull****. But that's what you get when your army is made up of uneducated kids and commanded by an idiot puppet manipulated by corporations.
Whatever.
quote:Originally posted by KnightEnder: Jeez, force them to read one book written by a Vietnam Vet before they are allowed to join up. At least then they won't be so suprised when they realize that war is crap and nobody in the government cares about their lives.
Clearly you've never been in the military or spent much time with someone who was in the military. You should read the book "Jarhead" before you give that kind of advice. There is a very good part where the author talks about books and movies on Viet Nam and the effect it has on military personnel - particularly those that will be doing the fighting.
The author compares it to pornography for the effect and emotion it evokes in the marines that watch war movies or read the books, particularly Viet Nam era stories. They love it and literally eat it up. Someone following your advice is more likely to rush into his recruiter's arms even faster than without such advice.
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quote:Originally posted by canadian: of course they do, but I think you'll agree that the training and mindset between the two types of forces are different in some important ways...
If that had anything, really, to do with what Tom D had said, I'd have been with ya. Unfortunately, Tom's argument is apparently that soldiers are crude, rude and shouldn't be seen in polite company, and that we'd be better off to have our spiffy policeman from say, Los Angeles, dusting off their six shooters and moosey-ing into Bagdad.
posted
Not to troll, but the song -is- pretty funny.
When you deal with death, you get rid of some of the stress through humor. In this case, the Marine had the poor judgement to let his humor be caught on film.
posted
Sorry, I got bogged down at work.I only have a few minutes before I have to get going again but I will be back to comment and possibly provide some links later.
The post by Omega that I originally commented on which I think Javelin quoted in the top post as well.
quote:Has anyone here heard about the "Hadji Girl" video, which was posted on youtube.com and "contains images of what is said to be a Marine in Iraq singing a song that seems to glorify killing an Iraqi young girl"? And apparently someone has claimed responsibility for it, though the Marines haven't charged him yet.
Well, that guy's life is over.
It seems to me, though I may be reading Omega's words wrong that Omega is condemning this Marine's song and feels that his should be over. While I doubt this is the case Omega could be saying that it is a pity that his life might be over because of this. Regardless or whether my initial interpretation was correct or not this situation brings up things which needs to be discussed, some of which I touched on in my initial response on the Miscellaneous thread.
I initially asked if Omega had read the lyrics to the entire song or just what was quoted in the links that she provided and if she(?) had researched at all beyong what was in those two links because those links didn't give the whole story. Are we really going to condemn someone based on less than half of the facts without looking for the whole truth first?
What about the double standard implicit in holding the arguably offensive lyrics in some of the songs by one group of servicemen up for praise while roundly criticizing the arguably offensive lyrics of another serviceman and calling for his punishment?
Should we look the other way while a branch of the military bows to pressure from an outside group to punish a Marine for expressing his first ammendment rights in the form of this song, whether it is insensitive to some people or not?
While it can be argued that the song is insensitive, it only takes a short look at the CAIR press release to see that they have taken the quote out of context and twisted its meaning in order to create this controversy. If it was indeed this controversial wouldn't it have come to light in the months that it had been on the web before now? If you listen to the song as performed it is clear that it is intended as comedy which is clearly not what CAIR would have us believe.
I have to get going, but I will be back to add to more comments and read more.
Thanks Gary for posting the lyrics so that I don't have to go find them again.
[ June 16, 2006, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Dave at Work ]
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KnightEnder
unregistered
posted
Great Gary. But you miss the point. At least they wouldn't be shocked and surprised (As seems to be the case with this marine judging by the songs lyrics.) when it doesn't turn out to be a vacation or the glorious adventure the recruiters sold to them. (As the recruiter tried to sell to my son and his Advanced-and-Gifted (that's what they call it) classmates. Talk about fishing in the wrong pond.)
And yes, clearly I've never been in the service. I've never thought the idea of giving someone complete control over my life sounded like a good idea. (All that damn reading and thinking for myself.) And although I have had a lot of military and law-enforcement friends (I'd grown up wanting to be a cop like my dad. So much for "clearly". Clearly you can't know anything about somebody by reading one post. Not that we are supposed to discuss posters education, qualifications, or motives. ), by the time I was an adult I'd learned enough to know that those professions are not the glorious honorable adventures they are often portrayed to be.
And if reading a Vietnam War book gives you a hard-on and makes you want to go fight in a war like that then you are already ****ed-up, and more power to you (even the guys that were there had to be forced to go). Better you than my son. Now watching Audie Murphy and John Wayne fight evil in WWII I can see, or even the bull**** version of Vietnam John Wayne did in "The Green Berets", but not after reading "American Boys" (The movie version of which was "Full Metal Jacket"). But, like I said; my point is this kid seems surprised by all the disillusioning **** that war turns out to be, and he wouldn't have been so surprised if he'd ever read a book or studied war or the history of same.
posted
To insist that it is an insult to say that the lauded US Marines are not trained nor equipped nor selected for performing a very specific, very specialized task is stupid beyond words. I'm sorry, but it is.
Fighting against a regular armoy is one thing, fighting against a guerrila insurgency is a different thing, and being a police/peacekeeping force is different from both of those - even more than they differ from each other, which they do quite a bit.
Not only is stupid to say that pointing this out is dengirating to anyone, it has an insidious effect on discourse. If we can't even suggest that personnel A is not suited to task X, then there's no point in any kind of study of the military endeavor. Close down West Point, Annapolis, whatever they call the Air Force equivalent and send home the many thousnds of military history experts we have on the payroll. Stop all the war-gaming, too. After all, you never know what conclusions you might draw. Why even go there?
So enough with the damn bleating. You can contend that Marines are too suited to the task of peacekeeping, but don't try to shut us up by playing the "you don't respect our troops" card. We're sick and tired of the demonizing demagoguery already.
posted
Well **** me running with a barge pole, people working in stressful jobs often develop a tasteless sense of humour about it. WHO WOULD'VE THUNK?
Seriously, if folks are gonna criticise the behavior of soldiers, aren't there infinitely more important things to lose sleep over than whether a bunch of idiots are making up offensive songs in their time off?
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quote:Unfortunately, Tom's argument is apparently that soldiers are crude, rude and shouldn't be seen in polite company...
No. My argument is that soldiers, by virtue of the work they do -- which is not, by definition, civilian work, and thus not civil work -- are woefully ill-suited to the role of police.
The role of a soldier inherently trains him to identify enemies and to dehumanize them (as this song does). While we can -- as we do with police -- attempt to train soldiers to reduce the incidence of this perfectly natural phenomenon, the simple fact is that soldiers are not servants of the people they may be assigned to "police" in instances like these. They are intrinsically further removed from the people they may be called upon to kill than are the police, and their training does not (and should not) focus as strongly on dealing with moral and ethical issues related to civilian peacekeeping.
This makes them VERY bad peacekeepers. Bluntly, they suck at it.
And songs like this are an EXCELLENT example of why. If you check that guy's MySpace site, you'll see other perfectly good examples of why he and his friends should not be attempting to bring "peace" to anything.
Our soldiers bring the sword, and they're good at it. Sadly, I think it's asking a bit much of them to expect that they also respect the people they're being asked to kill, and who are trying to kill them.
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posted
It's a stupid song. It indicates nothing about the suitability of marines as peacekeepers, and signifies nothing about the work being done by the military in Iraq.
What this amounts to is fodder for CNN and the water cooler. To pretend that it has more significance than that is just stupid.
Posts: 7629 | Registered: Mar 2003
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KnightEnder
unregistered
posted
The more I think about your post the stupidier it gets, Gary. You're right, they are better off uneducated about what they are getting into. And
quote:The author compares it to pornography for the effect and emotion it evokes in the marines
Man, when you misunderstand something you really do it up right. I was talking about kids reading about war BEFORE they join. Big surprise that after they are already in and have been indoctrinated that they are gung-ho.
And "Whatever"? That's bloody brilliant! Why bother to quote what I said if that is all you've got? Truly well thought out response. How can the claims I made stand in the face of such powerful prose and evidence? Even if you had been talking about the right people siting the opinion of one all-knowing "author" does not constitute proof.
posted
The song proves nothing. It's not about the song. Gary and someone else said that to say that marines are unfit as peacekeepers is degrading.
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004
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KnightEnder
unregistered
posted
quote:but on the whole these guys are the best America has to offer.
What a sad ambigous lie. In what respect are they "the best America has to offer"?
quote:There both bull****. But that's what you get when your army is made up of uneducated kids and commanded by an idiot puppet manipulated by corporations.
Wow, I feel like I just wandered onto DU by accident. You know perfectly well that statement is entirely indefensible.
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KnightEnder
unregistered
posted
You wish. I wish. It's defensible because it's true.
quote: Gary and someone else said that to say that marines are unfit as peacekeepers is degrading.
Why?
Here's my attempt to answer your "Why" question. Here's your original statement:
quote: It occurs to me that this is yet another reason why we shouldn't be using the military as police. They're just not capable of serving in a civil manner.
You've clarified your original statement, and it's hard to argue with your point that "military" and "police" are not the same thing and we shouldn't expect them to do the same jobs with equal success.
I don't think this point was the problem. There are a couple of possible reasons why your orignial statement raised some ire.
1. In this context you seem to be using the stupid song as an example of the character/abilities of the military as a whole. I acknowledge your point about the military as bad peacekeepers, but this song says nothing about the military in general, so why make your point in this context? Seems snarky.
2. "They're just not capable of serving in a civil manner." ...reads like a character judgment against all these men and women. I know what you meant, you've restated and expanded on it, and don't disagree with the idea, but the way you put it originally made it sound like the military is generally bad people.
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posted
Now that that tangent seems to have run its course how about discussing the original issue of this thread?
Is it appropriate for the Marines, or any other branch of the military to stomp on the first ammendment rights of one of its soldiers at the insitance of an outside agency such as CAIR?
If so should it make it up as it goes along or should it develop a consistent standard?
Shouldn't both the military and the mainstream media take a little time to do some fact checking before regurgitating the press release of an organization like CAIR?
Posts: 1928 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I'm with Tom. It's very hard to deny that this is NOT the message the US government wants or needs any of its official representatives to come across to anyone nowadays. Like TD says, military personnel have their first amendment rights restricted all the time, as a matter of course, far more than is legal for any other employee - including civilian branches of the government. This is not some new standard.
As for CAIR - who raised the issue is irrelevant once the complaint itself is found to have merit. Are the Marines who released these songs awful people? No. (at least, not baed on this).
However, there's a difference between having a subculture amongst ones peers and actively disseminating offensive material.
See, if it was some journalist spending some time with the marines and reporting "and you know what they sing to each other??? These awful, awful songs" - then I would say "leave them alone already". Like in Farenheit 9-11, Moore shows GI's singing "We don't need no water, let the motherfocker burn", and walking aroung with "Born to Kill" on their helmets. Do I like this? No. Is it actionable? Not really.
But choosing to upload stuff to myspace and such, is choosing to actively push these expressions to the general attnetion of the public, and the government can most definitely tell its soldiers not to do that. It does it all the time. Try to interview a GI without getting specific clearance to.
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Imagine 80 guys running in lock step shouting that cadence at the top of their lungs. The above is just one example of a cadence that my entire boot camp company ran to several years back. And that one is incredibly tame compared to some of the stuff we sang as we ran.
This whole "song" issue is nothing more than someone trying to force their vision of "morality" or "political correctness" on everyone around them. People need to lighten up and let young soldiers be young and dumb. I would much rather listen to 1000 songs like "Hadji Girl" then see one picture of "tortured" prisoners, or see one report about masacres at Haditha. Is his choice of song lyric politically correct? Certainly not but its not nearly as bad as a lot of the crap that you see on MTV everyday.
Posts: 754 | Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:People need to lighten up and let young soldiers be young and dumb.
Why? Is it your contention that by being young and dumb through song, they are made LESS young and dumb in action?
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000
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posted
I wish that were the case. But the thing is, "outlets" don't actually WORK in most cases; for all that it's a common phrase, people don't REALLY go and "blow off some steam" and "get it out of their system."
Such things tend to REMAIN in the system, rather than being cathartic releases.
Posts: 22935 | Registered: Nov 2000
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quote:Why? Is it your contention that by being young and dumb through song, they are made LESS young and dumb in action?
It is my contention that it is far far better to be young in dumb by writing politically incorrect songs than it is to be young and dumb and actually carrying out the lyrics they sing.
Posts: 754 | Registered: Nov 2003
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posted
OK, Is anyone really arguing that the US government shouldn't be able to tell its soldiers not to do these things if it finds them bad for the war effort?
Please answer the question and nothing but the question. Thanks.
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Unfortunately, Tom's argument is apparently that soldiers are crude, rude and shouldn't be seen in polite company, and that we'd be better off to have our spiffy policeman from say, Los Angeles, dusting off their six shooters and moosey-ing into Bagdad.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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