Ornery.org
  Front Page   |   About Ornery.org   |   World Watch   |   Guest Essays   |   Contact Us

The Ornery American Forum Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » ***SPOILER ALERT*** USA - Italy thread (Page 2)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: ***SPOILER ALERT*** USA - Italy thread
Redskullvw
Member
Member # 188

 - posted      Profile for Redskullvw   Email Redskullvw   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Re Italian vs USA match

Speaking as a player of 12 years, a coach for 12 years, and as a FIFA level E referee.. that Ref had to be one of the worst I have ever seen in an international match.

Posts: 6333 | Registered: Nov 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Redskull, I totally disagree. Each of those red cards was justified (The Mastroeni card was just a tad harsh, I'll concede, but the DeRossi was a classic red, and the pope was easily a yellow, which he already had). Sometimes players commit bad fouls. The ref doesn't have to be looking for trouble to eject them in such a case.

(speaking as a player for some 26 years, a certified coach for 10, and a person who gets paid on ocassion to write about soccer).

Actually the refs are decent this time around. Last WC was a joke in this regard. There have been egregious calls, but hardly any that can be said to have decided matches.

[ June 19, 2006, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can someone explain to me why the second red card was a red card? It didn't appear particularly dramatic to the unsoccified. It looked just like a dozen other plays to me.

As opposed to the elbow - which seemed an obvious assault.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
in soccer, there are red cards, and yellow cards.

for a foul with "medium severence" - such as a tackle to the legs from behind, or a hand ball. you get a yellow card, and for a severe foul, such as a tackle from behind, when you are the last player of defence, or an elbow to the face. you get a red card.

but, should you get two yellow cards in a single match - its as if you got a red card.

so the second american red card, was atually a player, who had a yellow card, and commited a yellow card worthy foul. thats why he was sent off.

Red, I agree with Ricky, the Ref was excellent in the Italia - Usa match.

Edit: Oh, Drake, it now occured to me, that you might have been talking about the first american player being sent off...

ok, that foul was also a red card foul, because the american player slided with both his legs infront, with no intention of getting to the ball, but to hit the italian player in the legs. the slide was also very late, and after the italian have passed the ball to some one else. it was a very harsh foul, with good potential to break to other player's leg. fouls like that are defenetly red card fouls.

[ June 19, 2006, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Hannibal ]

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It was a make-up call.
IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The first US red card - on Mastroeni - was a bit of a make up card. That one could have been let go with a yellow. Harsh foul (sliding spikes first into the guy's ankles without a chance of getting to the ball), but he had no priors. Still, in a high-charged game (like a WC game), if you're a man up, you have to be aware that the ref might take any opportunity to even things up.

In any event, I've definitely seen red cards for fouls like that (the first US red), so it wasn't an egregious make-up call.

Hannibal - good last two posts (if you'll forgive my presumption in "grading" them [Big Grin] )

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ivan
Member
Member # 1467

 - posted      Profile for Ivan   Email Ivan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Making up" for a guy throwing an elbow is just BS. Maybe if they lose a guy to a second yellow early in the game you give a makeup call, but for a blatant elbow? Forget it.

The two red cards against the US were weak calls. I would have been fine with Pope getting a second yellow if the US had still been up one, but he came in from the side and nearly had the ball (Pope claims he did, although I don't recall seeing him get it in the replays), but you don't pull out a card in that situation to give the other team to make it 9-10.

The ref was awful.

Anyhow, I'm pretty pumped for the Gana game, and I'm going to try to get off work to watch the match live. That failing, I suppose I'll just have to DL it later and hope for no spoilers. :-o

Posts: 1710 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pope's foul was a clear yellow. As for make-up calls - Ideally, they wouldn't exist. However, they do exist and are psychologically inevitable. Players should learn to expect them.

Ideally, you pull the card where you see it justified, regardless of the situation on the field. So you can't complain of both make-up calls and of calls that ignore the number of players on the field [Smile]

Ref was fine. It was just one of those game.

It would be awesome if the US won against Ghana (and the Italians beat the Czechs for us).

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think Pope should have been left in the game, but given that you are only allowed three (?) substitutes, I can understand the dilemma.

I also agree with Ricky, that you can't take the game situation into account. It is a foul or not a foul, and it shouldn't matter if it imbalances the game.

watch here

You'll see that the US player who got the first (US) red card actually touches the ball, so Hannibal can't claim he was too late!

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Did anyone see game 5 of the NBA finals?

Now _that_ was exciting! Overtime, constant lead changes. Breathless anticipation on each shot and rebound.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Loki
Member
Member # 2312

 - posted      Profile for Loki   Email Loki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"get that lumber in his teeth, let em know you're there."

I thought the ref was strict, all game, he gave a lot of cards, and I think that was ok. I was looking for a soft red on the second yellow(red). I don't recall anyone coming in for him.

Posts: 311 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You need glasses Drake, if you've seen the same video i have seen from your link, and still claim that the american player touched the ball

the american player, slides with both feet infront, he crashes to the leg of the italian player. it is a classic red card.

i can understand americans bitching about the Ref, i whould have if it was my team. but objectivly commenting, he was good. and atleast you can say that he was harsh on the italians aswell

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, I do need new glasses.

I found a frame grab of the tackle, and while he apparently didn't touch the ball, it is still right there in frame when he collides with the Italian player - and the pass, if there had been one, is clearly not away cleanly. Maybe in soccer terms that is "very late".

Most of the commentaries (and now I have officially read too many soccer blogs) seem to focus on the fact that it was "two-footed" and "studs up".

Is there a rule that you can only tackle with one foot? Or that the studs must be down? Or is it a combination of factors that makes it a harsh foul?

I think everyone agrees that it was a foul, including Mastroeni. The question is, why a card - and why a red card? What is the criteria?

I'm just trying to understand, because if it had been an Italian player, I'd still be confused. During the match, I'm just as much a biased ref heckler as anyone, but not days later. [Smile]

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ok, think about it, in order to get longer reach with your legs, you stretch the ankle aswell, and lower your foot, plus with one foot infront, and one foot at the back to stablize your slide, you can get up more quickly, and even stretch your leg farther.

conclusion - soccer wise, it pays off to slide with one foot lowered down.
what the american player did - was to slide on the purpose of injuring the italian player. soccer shoes, are VERY dangerous, they have litteraly NAILS at the buttom. sliding with two feet infront, in order to hit the italian player, in a slide that could have easilly ended his career equals a red card.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Haggis
Member
Member # 2114

 - posted      Profile for Haggis   Email Haggis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Two footed slides, spikes up on the ankles are begging for a card.
Posts: 1771 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess I'm too used to seeing two-footed, spikes up slides into second base to take that so seriously. Shortstops are expected to jump over the sliding player. Could they get their ankle broken? Sure. That's why they jump.
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yes... Drake in baseball.
thats what players in football try to do, and some of the times succeed. but it doesnt allways work, especially, if they are not looking at that direction (like in the instance of the italian player) and thus not expecting.

look at the goal scored by Maradona in 1986 against the english, he escapes dozens of slides and scores a goal.

but it doesnt change the intention of the player.
i guess that in baseball, the sliding player wasnt intending to break the shortstops's legs, but to touch the base no? the intention of the american player was clearly to pay the italian player back, for somthing that he or his team did.

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, Drake - that (2nd base slides) don't fly in soccer. In baseball, your not busy controlling an object on the ground, and you can be assumed to be better able to avoid harm. It's a totally different situation.

Matroeni slid right through both of the guys ankles, whereas the ball was to the side.

Anyway, if Arena manages to get past Ghana he's a giant. If the US manages to win by 2, he's done everything he can possibly be asked for.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Haggis
Member
Member # 2114

 - posted      Profile for Haggis   Email Haggis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And, in baseball, you can touch the ball with your hands. You've managed to find a sport with almost no parallels to soccer. Congratulations!
Posts: 1771 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey, take it easy guys!

I was just describing why I didn't have a strong personal reaction to the play - not trying to burn down FIFA headquarters. [Smile]

But if we want to go down that road... these guys can react to control a ball kicked at them from 50m away, but they can't avoid contact with a player coming at their ankles? I understand dangerous play from behind, where they can't see what's coming. But from the front?

Hannibal - generally, those players sliding into second base know they won't be safe. Their intent is to force a bad throw by threatening to injure the defender.

To look at the most dangerous baseball play (throwing the ball 90MPH at the batter's head) the rule calls for the batter to do his best to get out of the way first. If hit, the pitcher is warned (almost never sent off directly), and the batter gets a free base. The opposing pitcher will often retaliate in kind, at which point both teams are warned that the next infraction means ejection.

Look at other sports, rugby (high tackle), gridiron (personal foul, late hit), boxing (head butt) - in each case there are two consequences.

First - material advantage in the game. Field position or a chance at points. Although sometimes boxing includes a warning.

Second - A less dramatic permanent advantage. This might mean ejection of the player in question, or a temporary man advantage, or a warning that the next infraction will cause ejection (or loss of point).

So, I think that if I did get to rewrite the rules, I'd like to see some kind of penalty goal attempt at points and a less dramatic advantage in manpower - maybe equalizing once a goal is scored, like the hockey power-play. Maybe only if you still have a substitution left.

But since I'm still waiting for MLB (AL) to get rid of the DH, it is clear that I will have little influence. [Smile]

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They could avoid, but they shouldn't have to. In baseball, it is deemed legal and non-detrimental to the game to have runners slide into base, through the defender if need be.

In soccer, if you let defenders gain the ball by going spikes first thru the attacker, you have no game. Only a melee.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nope, I'm not suggesting that the rule should be like the baseball rule on spike-slides (since it comes up infrequently in baseball, particularly).

See above.

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maradona in 86 was a thing of beauty. (I was confined to a hospital bed and forced to watch. I'm glad I was.)

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Haggis
Member
Member # 2114

 - posted      Profile for Haggis   Email Haggis   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think soccer should have innings. I think the defense should be the side with the ball. I think they should hit the ball with big wooden sticks and that it should be a station to station type of game without fluidity and a lot of time in which the ball is not in play. They should allow as many substitutions as there are reserve players, since sliding spikes up would be legal, you sure would need more subs. Ugh.

Soccer will never appeal to a majority of Americans.

[ June 20, 2006, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Haggis ]

Posts: 1771 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess Nobody can look at this objectively. Strange how normally reasonable people freak out when you Suggest that a sport might not be perfect. for the record, I never said baseball is better ?!!
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
KnightEnder
unregistered


 - posted            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Baseball is better.

KE

IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Maradona makes me laugh. He's so simple and joyous. Catch him in the stands today during Argentina-Holland. Making a ruckus like a simple fan, with his latin afro and gold chains (and VIP pass) dangling on his chest [Big Grin]

BTW, his talk show isn't at all bad.

Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Baseball is not better.

Yes, Maradona is funny, but the game was so lame, both teams were settled with a 0-0 tie. because both are sure that they will defeat either portugal or mexico.

Holland - Portugal could be a very interesting game because both teams use open game tactics.
Argentina - Mexico might also be interesting, but at the end, Argentina are superiour


soooooooo........... any thoughts about 2mmorow's upcomming matches at the USA group?

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think that it stinks that the Czechs play Italy at the same time as the US-Ghana match. I can't even tape one and watch the other, because they will be constantly updating the score from the parallel match.

With all the spreading out they did, they had to schedule matches from the same pool simultaneously?

Prediction: US 0 GHA 1, ITA 1 CZE 2

Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
RickyB
Member
Member # 1464

 - posted      Profile for RickyB   Email RickyB   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Only in the thirs round of the group stage. It was done so one team wouldn't know that it had already qualified and then not try too hard. For instance, say USA-Ghana was earlier, mand ended in a tie - Both the Italians and the Czechs would know that a tie lets them both qualify, and would rest their stars and play a game as lack-luster as Argentina-Holland...
Posts: 19145 | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
The Drake
Member
Member # 2128

 - posted      Profile for The Drake   Email The Drake   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
It was done so one team wouldn't know that it had already qualified and then not try too hard.

I see. That makes sense. And now, if you'll excuse me, I have to avoid this thread for 12 hours until I can actually watch the match. [Big Grin]
Posts: 7707 | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Rallan
Member
Member # 1936

 - posted      Profile for Rallan   Email Rallan   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Right, time for a thread hijack since America are a bunch of losers who got knocked out of their group for failing to beat Ghana.

Australia vs Italy in the Group Of Sixteen round. Personally I rate my fabulous team from the downunderverse as having a chance somewhere between buckleys' and none, but we could potentially pull a miracle out of our ass here. A low scoring game and one mistake by the Italian defense, or a penalty shootout after a draw, and we could see Australia get past the group of 16 and qualify for the quarterfinal.

Posts: 2570 | Registered: Jul 2004  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Loki
Member
Member # 2312

 - posted      Profile for Loki   Email Loki   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yesterday's, Argentina vs. Mexico match, was pretty good. Argentia's overtime goal was a thing of beauty, the passing and ball control for the most of the game was pretty poor, but it was a good watch.
Posts: 311 | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hannibal
Member
Member # 1339

 - posted      Profile for Hannibal   Email Hannibal   Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Rallan i take it you are from Australia?
I am from israel.

the name Eli Ochana rings a bell?

Yesterday was a good match indeed, and second argentinian goal was unbelievable. the mexcicans played very good, i can hardly wait for friday to see Argentina Vs Germany. but today we are going to see a good game between holland and portugal, and on thursday we have Brasil - Ghana!

Posts: 3495 | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
UBB Code™ Images not permitted.
Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | Ornery.org Front Page

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classic™ 6.7.1