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Author Topic: stay tuned... growing chances for war in israel
Jesse
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Funny, ain't it?

Palestinians are totally unreachable, unreasonable, and cannot be bargained with. Yet, millions of Arab Israelis live peacefully, and while a very few of them have been involved in terrorist activity, the vast majority refrain from such behavior and limit themselves to civil protest of various forms. While some have at times commited acts of violence, so have some Jewish Israelis.

So, what is the difference? Why are those in the Occupied Territories unreasoning beasts dedicated to violence and self-destruction, while those in Israel are, by and large, responsible participating citizens in a modern democracy?

The policy of Israel in regard to the Occupied Territories has been absolutely schizophrenic, changing again and again since 67. Attempts HAVE been made to normalize the situation, only to be reversed and replaced by Colonial policies, over and over. Any idiot with a grenade has been granted the ability to derail any peace process.

We've (The US) fallen down on the job. We let the Saudis wage a meme war while making no realistic attempt to fight back. We focused on brokering "peace" between nations while ignoring the ability of the dispossesed to wage war on their own, and ignoring the open use of refugees as proxy armies.

It's not as if we were without leverage. We supplied advanced munitions and equipment to States which we knew were acting to continue this conflict. We supported Israel even when we knew it's policies to be counter-productive (and yes, some of it's policies HAVE been).

Absorbing and normalizing the territories just might have worked. Walling them off after 67, or at least after 73, might have worked. Neither of those things happened, and the situation has to be dealt with as it now stands.

There are no easy answers. A Palestinian state needs capital investment to be viable, investment that isn't likely so long as violence continues, violence that isn't likely to stop so long as poverty and despair fuel it.

The Japanese surrendered because we nuked them. It's a lovely culture myth. It doesn't take into account that the Soviets were already siezing Japanese territory, and that the Japanese command had already begun to pass through the internal turmoil that led to surrender.

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Redskullvw
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Ricky

Do you live in the real world?

If you do then you will know the answer to this set of questions;

Can you negotiate peace with the Palestinians?

Do the Palestinians want Peace with Israel?

Do most Palestinians think that at thee very least the jews should be forced out of Israel/Palestine?

And finally when was the last time the Palestinians were seated at a neogtiating table first?

I'd say if you know the answers to be negative, then the answer to the question do you live in the real world to be false as well.

As for American ethnic minorities being worthy of genocide, none of them ever were because, in the end every single ethnic group in America has had to realize that peaceful coexistence is the absolute minnimally accepted form of interchange between groups in America.

We don't have suicide bombers.

So lets re establish reality Ricky. For my entire life these Palestinians have repeatedly, and routinely attempted to kill ass many Jews as possible, as often as possible. They say that the Jews must either leave or die. They don't even recognize the remote possibility that jews might have botgh a legal and moral right to a nation state.

In short this scum of a people thinks the only thing Jews deserve is to be either liquidated or pushed into refugee boats.

So knowing that, and knowing that essentially all avenues of diplomacy and rewards have still resulted in absolutely zero change in how the Palestinians treat jews, why then is it unrealistic to conclude that maybe turn about is fair play.

If you keep offering rewards and praise to a dog, and it keeeps biting you every single day, for years on end, at what point to you conclude that you must try harder and offer even more rewards to the dog to get him to at least tollerate your pressence in a room. At what point, after that, when the dog is still bitting you, do you decide to kill the dog before he rips out your throat?

Ricky

These are not people. They are animals. They will destroy you. They keep saying they will destroy you. They even keep trying to do it, several times a week in fact. They are even getting better at killing you. At some point they will become very good at killing you.

I suggest you realize you are dealing with a diseased society and eliminate it before it eliminates you.

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livermeer kenmaile
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"I suggest you realize you are dealing with a diseased society and eliminate it before it eliminates you."

Even if oneself is the primary cause of their disease, I suppose? This is rather like the attitude that smallpox takes toward its host.

[ July 04, 2006, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: livermeer kenmaile ]

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livermeer kenmaile
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"The sick, sad thing is that the most rational move for Israel may just be to:

* give the Palestinians an independent state, with all the rights and responsibilities that sovereignty brings,
* wait for the inevitable attacks on Israel,
* and respond as states do to attacks by other states."

And why is such conventional behavior "sick and sad"? Neighboring states have had right-to-exist conflicts for millennia. We USA citizens had ours with the local aborigines and wiped out 90-plus % of them in the process. THEY were small enough (especially after disease reduced their number) for us to swallow).

It sounds like basic reality to me. You know, that stuff that redskullw seems to believe he owns a patent on [Wink]

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Everard
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""I suggest you realize you are dealing with a diseased society and eliminate it before it eliminates you."

Even if oneself is the primary cause of their disease, I suppose? This is ather like the attitude that smallpox takes toward its host."

In this case, the primary cause of the disease is the leadership that the palestian people have lived under... whether palestinian, jordanian, or other arab.

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livermeer kenmaile
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I suspect that large-scale major external developments, like a major immigration of another ehtic group, also deserve words like 'primary' to be applied to them as much as does local despotism. I hear tell, for example, that Hitler couldn't have done what he done if the Versailles agreement hadn't been such a mess.

Just to give events at large at least equal billing with the chiefs who form political responses to them.

Let's look elsewhere. Let's follow the trail of the White Man's Burden, and see what typically happens to the local indigenes (real word? don't know. love the sound of it though) when an advanced European culture settles in their midst.

The indigenes become demoted to a subhuman unworthy status in the minds of the settlers (whose settlements, while sometimes at first viewed benignly by the locals, soon come to be seen as invasions).

[ July 04, 2006, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: livermeer kenmaile ]

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Everard
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The problems the people who later became the palestinians had dated from prior to the 1880's. The migration of jews into the region only sped up a process that was largely under way, and gave that process a specific focus.
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RickyB
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Redskull, it's amazing how you, who have probably never met an actual Palestinian, and definitely none who are actually here, know so much better than me what they are and aren't, though it kinda makes sense, since I am encumbered by actual familiarity with quite a number of Palestinians. Funny how facts get in the way of theories. You meet a bunch of decent Palestinians and poof! go all the easy categories...

What will destroy us is not the Palestinians, who have been trying for decades (to their continued and increasing detriment), but the insistence on running their lives and "re-educating" them. We do not have the resources. We have our own far from perfect society to tend to. You want it so much, you do it.

As for your questions:

Q: Can you negotiate peace with the Palestinians?

A: I think so.

Q: Do the Palestinians want Peace with Israel?

A: Polling data consistently shows that they actually do, and are willing to compromise to get it.

Q: Do most Palestinians think that at the very least the jews should be forced out of Israel/Palestine?

A: "Should"? maybe. I think all the land between the sea and the river "should" be ours. If an alien came down and took every Palestinian away in his flying saucer i'd suck his antena every morning and smile as I do it. The important thing is that, again, consistent polling data shows that they realize (as do I) that this is not actually possible.

Q: And finally when was the last time the Palestinians were seated at a neogtiating table first?

A: I'm not sure I understand the question.

Now, to say that there aren't some Palestinians I'd gleefully shoot in the head myself? That'd be a lie. There are some Jews like that, too. But to call an entire nation "animals" says little about them and a whole lot - none of which is good - about you.

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javelin
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It's gettin' so a man can't casually advocate genocide around here without getting all dog piled on. Geesh!
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RickyB
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<chuckle>
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DonaldD
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I'm not sure why everyone's so upset - Red is forever advocating mass human cleansing as a bandaid solution for any violent conflict.
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javelin
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That's why everyone has been taking it in stride, my man... aren't ya following? [Big Grin]
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Hannibal
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i didnt expect it to be reported by world media, as it reports only "israeli incursions", but Hamas launched an improved rocket, i guess, today that hit the city of Ashqelon, it hit a mid school, but the school year is over so no one was hit. ashqelon is 8 or so kilometers from gaza, unlike shderot, and it has 120 tousand citizens.

when will israel wake up

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DonaldD
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Actually, CNN reported on the rocket hitting the school earlier today (prior to your post, Hannibal)
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Hannibal
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granted... they reported it. but as a minor footnote. and not as the big issue that it is
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RickyB
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Hannibal, it's a big issue to you and me, not necessarily as big to the world. Why do you think your problems need to dominate other people's news all the time? they have problems of their own, and if you want to talk about rockets, the North Korean ones are much more important to the world.

You really need to get a sense of persepective.

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Redskullvw
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i'll be back this weekend.
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Hannibal
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It is now allmost 0200 in israel, the "dawn" of the 6th of june.

after the palestinians fired another rocket at ashqelon today, i think that israel finally entered northern gaza with large elements in order to stop the rocket fire.

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Janitor
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Good. Israel is making some long overdue advancments.
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Hannibal
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after a rather bloody day of 16 palestinian gunmen killed. Hamas has issued an order to all palestinian armed forces, including the palestinian police (the only "official" force of the palestinians, controlled by fatah) to fire at will on israeli soldiers. this is practically a decleration of war by the palestinian authority i guess.

how hypocrite of them, to attack us, and then after we retaliate , declare war on us.

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rightleft22
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It's time this gets finished! If it's to be war then let it be WAR!

Let the actions, words and meanings reflect each other… No more saying this but doing that crap, if it’s hates its hate, if the majority wants peaces then don’t elect those who are pro confect.

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DonaldD
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"Mine eyes have seen the glory of the...."

Rah, rah!

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RickyB
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Well, see, that's the thing. It won't get finished, because it's practically impossible to prevent guerrila warfare/terrorism. No matter how iron-fisted your rule. Hell, the nazis couldn't prevent uprisings in the ghettoes.

rightleft - problem is, what do you do when those who ostensibly want peace are both corrupt as all hell and not actually delivering peace? Plus, the stupid election system favors disciplined movements?

Life ain't that simple.

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maniacal_engineer
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Oh Jesse,
I don't think the russians did anything until after 6aug1945. My recollection is that they didn't act until the first bomb was dropped. Then they wanted to partition Japan the way that we partitioned europe. Mcarthur told them to attempt a physically impossible sexual act. They did keep four small islands up north of hokkaido.

from wikipedia
quote:

On August 8, two days after the atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, the Soviet Union, having renounced its nonaggression pact with Japan, attacked the Japanese in Manchuria, fulfilling its Yalta pledge to attack the Japanese within three months after the end of the war in Europe. The attack was made by three Soviet army groups. In less than two weeks, the Japanese army in Manchuria consisting of over a million men had been destroyed by the Soviets. The Red Army moved into North Korea on August 18. Korea was subsequently divided at the 38th parallel into Soviet and U.S. zones.

Japan Surrenders

Main article: Victory over Japan Day

The American use of atomic weapons against Japan prompted Hirohito to bypass the existing government and intervene to end the war. The entry of the Soviet Union into the war may have also played a part, but in his radio address to the nation, Emperor Hirohito did not mention it as a major reason for his country's surrender.

The Japanese surrendered on August 15, 1945 (V-J day), signing the Japanese Instrument of Surrender on September 2, 1945, aboard the USS Missouri (BB-63) anchored in Tokyo Bay. The Japanese troops in China formally surrendered to the Chinese on September 9, 1945. This did not fully end the war, however, as Japan and the Soviet Union never signed a peace agreement. In the last days of the war, the Soviet Union occupied the southern Kuril Islands, an area claimed by the Soviets and still contested by Japan (see Kuril Islands dispute).


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RickyB
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Yeah, they grabbed Sakhalin - the shark-shaped island [Smile]
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Hannibal
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I dont know how it happned
but apperantly hizballah kidnapped two israeli soldiers at the northen border and things are hitting up very much now there aswell.

the IDF is now bombing bridges and roads all over southern lebanon, atleast thats what they say in the news. and IDF is massing forces in the northen border.
this is all syria's fault.

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RickyB
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That Halutz is doing a heck of a job as Chairman of the joint chiefs, isn't he? [Mad]

[ July 12, 2006, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Hannibal
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i dont know the world in english to express this

but it is a focking BIZAYON!!! (disgrace?)

fresh news here we go, israel is calling for reserves, and the minister of defence told israelis of the northern border to go down to shelters

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rightleft22
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quote:
problem is, what do you do when those who ostensibly want peace are both corrupt as all hell and not actually delivering peace?
The situation is just so frustrating. Words and actions are not lining up; their always seems to be the 'we want peace but'... always the but.
Why do we allow the “corrupt at hell” persons who only ostensibly want peace to lead when the contradiction is obvious if we don't subconsciously want what their selling?

I’ve begun to wonder if we, humanity, ready do desire peace?
Nothing like a little conflict to provide meaning, purpose, energy to someone’s humdrum life.
Is Peace so boring?
Could Peace ‘stagnate’ the potential of humans?


Could this "tension" between Peace and War actually be causing more harm?
Is it the intention?
Nether real Peace or total War but the status quo of keeping the area destabilized. Just enough for some small group to keep control over others. Just miserable enough for the majority average joe and jane to “shrug” and complain but not enough to create real change?

quote:
"Words may show a man's wit but actions his meaning." – Benjamin Franklin

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Jesse
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maniacal_engineer


Soviet forces were massing prior to the dropping of the first bomb. The Japanese forces in Manchuria represented most of their remaining standing military. The Japanese were not ignorant of the fact that the US sat back and allowed the USSR to capture Berlin, with all the rape and mass murder that accompanied Soviet invasion at that time.

They had no reason to believe we would not do the same to them, letting the Soviets take most of their country while we retained strategically valuable islands like Okinawa.

The vast majority of Germans today will tell you they wish surrender had been offered to the Western Powers. The Emperor was not Hitler, he was interested in the continued existance of his nation beyond his own life time.

The Japanese command structure was already debating surrender before Hiroshima. It wasn't easily accomplished. I won't deny that the bombing of Hiroshima (to a much lesser extent, Nagasaki) played a part, but it sure wasn't the sole or even the primary motivation.

The invasion of the Kuriles began prior too Japanese surrender. Follow the wiki links.

"The operation began with the crossing of the Horonai (Poronai) Japanese frontier River post and bombardment of the Handenzawa Japanese land frontier post in Shikuka district, and advance to north of Koton (now Pobedino), a powerful fortified district (FD). Severe fighting with heavy losses continued for over a week. Only on August 18 did Russian troops succeed in breaking the enemy’s defense. In this case, landings by Pacific navymen deep behind enemy front lines were of significant help to Soviet ground forces. Such invaders inflicted terror and panic on Japanese settlers in Shikuka, Hanno, Horonai, Naramitoshi, Keton, Miyuki and Nairo."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_Karafuto_and_Kuriles

Edited to add

Sorry for the segway

[ July 12, 2006, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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Redskullvw
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I hope it isnt war. But if it is, I hope it is the last Arab war against Israel in my lifetime.

If Haifa gets attacked, I'd say Israel has the right to engulf Syria and eliminate the Palestinians. I hope they put them in boats and send them on their way to some oher idiotic arab nation.

Seeing this repeat year after year, and decade after decade, at some point someone is going to have to tell the Israelis to snap out of it, and get rid of the perpetual thorn in their side.

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Hannibal
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hizbullah attacked haifa today
but we israelis expected this.

i hope that israel will increase the pressure on lebanon even farther

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javelin
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"Hezbollah denies firing rockets at Haifa"
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DonaldD
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In related news, the Provisional IRA claims responsibility for rockets fired into Haifa.

The ETA also put out a statement, but Basque translation wasn't immediately available.

Seriously jav, I couldn't find anything quoting a Hezbollah denial. I found a "did not comment" statement, but no denial. link?

<edited to add>Forget it, I found the following: "Reuters: Hezbollah denies firing rockets at Haifa"

[ July 13, 2006, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: DonaldD ]

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javelin
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WHOOPS! It's from rueters - saw on CNN:

(I have to say, considering it's at the top of the CNN homepage, surprised you didn't see it...)

quote:
Israeli gunships hit fuel tank at Beirut airport

• Israel strikes Beirut airport, hitting fuel tank
• Two rockets hit Israeli port city of Haifa, IDF said
• Reuters: Hezbollah denies firing rockets at Haifa
• Israeli ambassador: Haifa attack "major escalation"
• Hezbollah launches scores of rockets into Israel
• Israel, Lebanon officials say violence amounts to "acts of war"

Actual Story

quote:
Hezbollah earlier had threatened to hit Haifa, but Lebanese TV reported that the militant group denied launching the attack on the city of 280,000.

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Hannibal
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wow, hizbullah have more sophisticated missiles then we thought... they have lives of their own.

seriously... they threatned to attack haifa, and a moment after haifa was hit, they started celebrating at the streets again, and hizbullah said he made his promise to attack haifa, only after several minutes they claimed that they have not.

and if they have not... they probably gave the missiles to some other islamic group and it doesnt really matter.

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DonaldD
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Yup, that's where I eventually found it... but it's a bit ironic that the body of the article says nothing about Hezbollah's denial, but does mention Lebanese Information Minister Ghazi Aridi claiming that the Lebanese government wasn't involved in the Hezbollah attack.

Hmmm... that doesn't leave a lot of possible responsible parties. Given that Hezbollah controls the region and had recently threatened to attack Haifa, their denial seems about as believable as Materazzi's...

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RickyB
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A friend of miine told me about it a coupla minutes before it first broke on the net. Heard the boom and the following sirens really well.

Hizballah have bitten off more than they can chew. It's unfortunate, but this is one o' them situations when even Sun Tzu is down with getting medieval on your enemy's be-hind.

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javelin
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It's weird, but - why would Hezbollah deny the attack? It might be wise (stave off a war), but when before have they been wise? I'm actually inclined to believe them! [Eek!]

[ July 13, 2006, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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DonaldD
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Maybe it was the IRA...
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