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» The Ornery American Forum » General Comments » OSC's new book, Empire (Page 3)

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Author Topic: OSC's new book, Empire
TommySama
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Maybe he's just a little arrogant and doesn't like being criticized? Not really something I would consider impossible considering he is a human being.

But if you go to hatrack it definitely sounds like Tom is egging him on sometimes, just last night I saw him post something along the lines of, "maybe you could back up the claims that OSC made but didn't support" to somebody.

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Wayward Son
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Actually, I see the claim of "back up the claims that OSC made but didn't support" as calling 'em as you see 'em. After all, the person could simply respond by listing all the support that OSC did provide. [Smile]
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tuxmask3
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I found the second chapter necessary and intriguing. Oh sure, there were overtly political statements thrown in there, but the lecture on Rome seemed pivotal for the direction the novel will take.

SPOILERS (though it seems most have read it)

The idea was that in order for America to become a true empire, dictator and all, there first needed to be a civil war so someone could step up to the role. So it seems that there is a faction in the government or elsewhere that wishes to create a civil war by playing each side against the other. Of course it's just speculation, but the president was killed by this faction and not a blue or red state faction.

I found it intriguing. Unlikely, but intriguing.

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winkey151
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Ummmm... I am just curious.

Along with all your criticisms, how many best sellers do each of you have under your belts?

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DonaldD
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Well, that sorts that out.
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Storm Saxon
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I can't believe you just posted that, winkey.
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canadian
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hm
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TomDavidson
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In the future, when winkey makes a political argument, we should all ask him how long he's been a senator. [Wink]
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Ivan
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Wow. Seriously, wow. That was awsome, from "twisted hunger", to "hatchet... to death", and finally the awsome play on Tom's comment: "soul-crushing hypocisy".

This man knows his words.

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
In the future, when winkey makes a political argument, we should all ask him how long he's been a senator. [Wink]

Tom... why don't you ask "her" how long she has been a senator.
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Pete at Home
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Sounds like it! I can appreciate your position. For myself, I haven't seen it, so I could only argue from prejudice, and assume that OSC had a good reason with respect to Tom. But since it is just prejudice, I won't preach this position to others!


quote:
Originally posted by IanO:
I don't think I meant to speculate on OSC's mental state. And I have been annoyed at Tom, so OSC's position was not completely alien to me. I suppose what added to the mix was that I've seen him do it before, not with Tom but with someone completely inoccent of any malice or snide comments. He went off on the person, totally misinterpreting them and then went on to criticize the motivations he assumed they had for asking the question. I was stunned. The person responded, indicating that not only had he misinterpreted her, but that she did not at all partake in the motivations he ascribed. As it turns out, she shared his outlook completely, being in a similar situation. I waited for an acknowledgment or an apology or something. Nothing. I felt bad for her. To be sure, he might have been having a bad day or something. And I can understand that. But it still was off-putting.

Keep in mind that I love OSC's work. I have been reading it over and over again for the last 14 years. My son is even named after him. But at the same time, I am not blind to the fact that sometimes he goes way overboard, not only his initial response, which may (or may not, as the case may be) be fair, but in his assuming motives, going off on the those motives, and not allowing anything anyone says change those views.


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ngthagg
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winkey: Who decides whether a book is a best-seller, the author or the fans?

ngthagg

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TommySama
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"Along with all your criticisms, how many best sellers do each of you have under your belts?"

No you guys, winkey is right. Because OSC is a best selling author we should take everything he writes as gold and not question the content of what he writes, because, obviously, he is a best selling author, up there with God the Almighty.

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TomDavidson
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Sarcasm aside, winkey has a point: OSC does presumably know how to write better than any of us. By the same token, Roger Ebert is a terrible moviemaker.

I do not know if that necessarily speaks to the validity of Ebert's film criticism.

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TommySama
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Yeah, but she criticized us criticizing what he wrote. I think it's perfectly legitimate of us to say how we feel about his writing style in this book, or question his motives or politics, etc.

That's (hopefully) what he intends when he writes a book: to stimulate his readers into thought.

If he's writing his book so we can mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says, then OSC is a very, very scary man.

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by ngthagg:
winkey: Who decides whether a book is a best-seller, the author or the fans?
ngthagg

I guess if you had one... you would'nt need to ask. [Big Grin]


quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Yeah, but she criticized us criticizing what he wrote.

Critics sure don't seem to like criticism. [Eek!]
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Pete at Home
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*If he's writing his book so we can mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says, then OSC is a very, very scary man.*

I argued with the guy in person when he visited my English class, and then he took me out to pizza so we could argue some more. We never came to agreement, but I don't consider him a scary guy. He's got a great mind and a great heart.

[ August 17, 2006, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
*If he's writing his book so we can mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says, then OSC is a very, very scary man.*

The fact that this thread can go from Joe Blow on the street criticizing a book by the first few chapters to accusations that conclude with OSC being a very, very scary man....

is in itself very scary. [Eek!]

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TommySama
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*Cough*

It was an aside at you, winkey. I don't think OSC is a scary man, I think that you implying we shouldn't criticize his writing basically is saying we should "mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says"

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by winkey151:
quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
*If he's writing his book so we can mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says, then OSC is a very, very scary man.*

The fact that this thread can go from Joe Blow on the street criticizing a book by the first few chapters to accusations that conclude with OSC being a very, very scary man....

is in itself very scary. [Eek!]

NO WINKY!! Please be more careful in your attributions, and if you can, PLEASE EDIT THAT MISATTRIBUTION BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE COMES TO THE WRONG CONCLUSION ABOUT WHO SAID WHAT! I realize you did not intend to misattribute, but when you cut off the response to the quote, it makes it look like I was the source of the statement in quotes, rather than arguing against it.

[ August 17, 2006, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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TommySama
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*cough*

Wrong Tom, Pete.

and like I said before, I was being sarcastic.

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Pete at Home
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corrected! And sorry for missing your sarcasm.
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winkey151
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sorry Pete... It wont let me go back and edit it now.

To everyone on this board...

quote:
This was not quoted by Pete at Home... Pete is a stand up guy and would never even think of saying something like this. [Smile]
*If he's writing his book so we can mindlessly get in line like drones and believe every word he says, then OSC is a very, very scary man.*



[ August 17, 2006, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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KnightEnder
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quote:
Originally posted by winkey151:
Ummmm... I am just curious.

Along with all your criticisms, how many best sellers do each of you have under your belts?

lol. But we have bought a lot of best sellers. His among them. We know what we like. You should read the Ornery rules. We aren't impressed with your best sellers.

KE

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
*Cough* It was an aside at you, winkey.

It is a good thing that you aren't OSC... people would be jumping down your back for asiding me.

Oh, the loveliness of not being famous.

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Pete at Home
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Thanks Winkey! OSC's always been really cool to me, so I hope you understand why I freaked [Smile]
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canadian
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I do...
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TommySama
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Go read OSC on hatrack, winkey. If he feels people have made an unjust comment about him, he tears into said persons. He would definitely aside you, or me, for negative things we wrote about him.

BTW, KE, good point. [Big Grin]

[ August 18, 2006, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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Pete at Home
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I've got a question about that. If I get impressed with someone's best sellers, am I breaking an Ornery rule?
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I've got a question about that. If I get impressed with someone's best sellers, am I breaking an Ornery rule?

Nah - just not being very ornery. [Smile]
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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by TommySama:
Go read OSC on hatrack, winkey. If he feels people have made an unjust comment about him, he tears into said persons. He would definitely aside you, or me, for negative things we wrote about him.

BTW, KE, good point. [Big Grin]

I have read OSC on hatrack.

Are you saying that you know all the detailed information of the alleged offense with which OSC has been accused?

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cperry
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Actually, do y'all mind if we drop the OSC and TomD and other stuff? I'd much rather talk about the book and leave the personal comments out of it -- or at least off this thread. It's not why I started the thread in the first place, and it makes me uncomfortable.

I'm not saying it's not a legitimate conversation; I'm just really bummed that it's happening here.

(edited to correct a vague antecedent)

[ August 18, 2006, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: cperry ]

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Weeder
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OK, me too, about the book. Yeah.

Did anyone else notice that the protagonist's name is part Jewish (Reuben) part Arab (Malek)? I guess OSC has more respect for the fighting prowess of Arab guerillas than he admits on Ornery - if only they can coexist with the Jews.

Reading on, we find that the protagonist is also a Serb married to a Croat. Circles within circles. But I must agree with the implicit premise: that America is America because this is where enemies come to become lovers.

[ August 18, 2006, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: Weeder ]

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hobsen
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Yes, I admire OSC's ideals of tolerance. But Captain Malek is sufficiently unlikely as a career soldier who becomes an outstanding student at Princeton. His incredibly unlikely marriage makes him still more the impossible man.

[ August 18, 2006, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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Weeder
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Nope, it's fiction, and I stand by my statement: Jewish first name, Arab surname, Serbian back-story, Croat wife. Perfect symbolism inserted on purpose by the author.

By the way, I'm Orthodox Christian and I'm Arab too, but I don't have a Jewish first name [Smile] .

[ August 18, 2006, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Weeder ]

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hobsen
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Perhaps you could become Moses? Anyway, I have to admit you look as if you are right, Weeder.
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velcro
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I noticed the ""suicide" in a park" comment. A little snippy if you ask me.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Orson's getting old. Like I said before, male menopause ain't nothing to dismiss lightly.

Also: you build a reputation for, what, 20 years? YOu're an acknowledged master with a hefty share of genre-crossing readers, and a large cult of worshipful admirers. (Me? I think OSC's OK.) YOu figure you've earned the right to indulge yourself and express your personal views more openly. Preach a bit, like Old Man Heinlein.

And you get hammered.

This could eassily bring out the crank in someone.

Apparently, writing his World Watch columns doesn't adequately vent his ire?

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cperry
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Apparently, writing his World Watch columns doesn't adequately vent his ire?

Hi KL. That was my first reaction too, but then I thought, "Hey, I write what I know and think. It's only natural that he try to put some of this into his fiction."

Plus, if this is successful, it'll put him into a market that's much more lucrative than sci-fi.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Yo, cp. (I've been hanging with recently with a youngblood who grew up in San Diego's gangsta culture. Word.) I agree. I'm not limiting OSC to ire-venting, just focusing on it a bit.

I've only read Ender's Game. It's replete with abundant political philosphical moralizing. The only difference between that and the new book, from what I can tell, is tha some folks don't enjoy it as much. Whether that dissatisfaction is based on style or on content, I don't know.

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