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JohnLocke
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I think the word is hiscarious.

Eager for reactions.

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0Megabyte
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Um... what?
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Loki
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jihad baby, jihad.
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Storm Saxon
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Hey, look, li'l Republicans. Aren't they cute!
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MattP
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I liked where they compared themselves to Islamists.

[ September 07, 2006, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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0Megabyte
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Hmm. One Family Guy episode said something amusing about something slightly similar.

"We young Republicans are dedicated to helping those who can already help themselves!"

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Pete at Home
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[Big Grin]

Sadly a growing number of Dems seem to be adopting that philosophy too, taken over by amoral libertarians who shout down any argument for the benefit of kids, and (here in Vegas) have adopted a clear eat the homeless philosophy. [Frown]

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LoverOfJoy
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With a PG-13 rating, I wonder how many christian youth will be allowed to see it.
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flydye45
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Muslims want to ban women from Mecca


Meanwhile, having a film which passes along Christian values to children is the same as Jihadis . You guys need to get out more.

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LoverOfJoy
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To be fair, flydye, the clips shown in the context they were given weren't scary because they teach christian values to children. They were scary because a woman is screaming "This means war! This means war! Are you a part of it or not?" to children after showing these kids dressed in camoflage clothes and face paint.
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flydye45
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I don't have quick time, so I missed the trailer.
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Funean
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Yikes!

Honestly, I don't think it's especially touchy-feely liberal--or at all anti-religious, for that matter--to be concerned about an organization whose stated aims are to "take back America for Christ" with a strong whiff of militarism. And that's without even getting into the fact that their target audience is children.

"Transmitting Christian values to children" and "taking back America" are rather at discrete points along the "witnessing" spectrum.

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0Megabyte
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Now... why are we friendly to these Saudi assholes again?

Oh, right. Oil. Screw oil! if we care about anything at all, let's use our new hugely increased oil supplies as a means to allow us to stop buying from these crackheads.

A government focused on the ideal of freedom in the world could not actually turn such a blatant blind eye to the actions of one of our "allies." I cannot believe that.

Therefor, it can mean only one thing: The goal of this administration is in no way freedom, any claims to fight FOR freedom are nothing but lies, and these corrupt sons of bitches are just as liable for the atrocities in our allies' nations as those nations are themselves.

i.e: Shrubbaya's administration is corrupt, and does not deserve the support of anyone who loves freedom.

Adn yes. I just NOW decided this. Don't razz me too much, I know all of you already figured that out about four years ago or longer.

Not that... any other administrations would be any different. Heh.

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javelin
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quote:
Therefor, it can mean only one thing: The goal of this administration is in no way freedom, any claims to fight FOR freedom are nothing but lies, and these corrupt sons of bitches are just as liable for the atrocities in our allies' nations as those nations are themselves.
I'm surprised to see you suddenly take the "it's so simple it must be true" route to understanding reality. I'm wondering if you are being serious.
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Loki
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"Now... why are we friendly to these Saudi assholes again?"

Hey now, I met a Saudi last night, I'm friends with him because he's awesome...that's just me though.

AS was said, I think it's the military like attitude being taken here, possibly just a fad because of the current time of war, rather than a real Christian approach like, 'killing with kindness.'

[ September 07, 2006, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Loki ]

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Everard
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"AS was said, I think it's the military like attitude being taken here,"

Well, also the "take back america for christ," thing.

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Loki
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Well, would you care if these Christians wanted to 'take back america for christ' by forming charities, offering local services like cleaning litter, assisting elderrly or running free day cares, or by having bake sales and things like that? Instead of this military thing?
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Everard
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"Well, would you care if these Christians wanted to 'take back america for christ' by forming charities, offering local services like cleaning litter, assisting elderrly or running free day cares, or by having bake sales and things like that?"

Yes. Its bothersome to me that a lot of christians think that non-christians don't belong in the united states, or that at best we should be second class citizens. I honestly think that should be a concern to christians, as well.

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javelin
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I suppose when they say "take back America for Christ", they might feel they need to fight an attitude that talking about your Christian faith is frowned upon, in public life, these days, and that this needs to change.
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Toren
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"Yes. Its bothersome to me that a lot of christians think that non-christians don't belong in the united states, or that at best we should be second class citizens. I honestly think that should be a concern to christians, as well."

That's a pretty broad generalization there...

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Everard
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"I suppose when they say "take back America for Christ", they might feel they need to fight an attitude that talking about your Christian faith is frowned upon, in public life, these days, and that this needs to change."

Please clarify what you mean.

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Everard
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"That's a pretty broad generalization there..."

Well, it IS what the logical implications of "take american back for christ" is.

And there are a lot of people who take that approach.

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0Megabyte
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On the one hand I do see a negativity towards religion that does exist in some circles. (Including here at Ornery!) But on the other I see the danger that the creationist, evangelical Christian movements, the fanatacism that exists and the hostility to other groups, and see that as a danger as well. Really, both sides are, well, not even different sides of the same coin, but the same side of the same coin!

I find it disturbing that we live in a day in which so much extremism exists. Then again... extremism exists everywhere, and seems to have always been..

Oh, and Jav, hmm. I don't generally go for "so simple it must be true" rhetoric, definitely. However, occasionally my logic DOES fail me. What I said before, not that I've cooled off, still looks to me like something interesting to consider (that is, pick apart!).

Actually, I'm growing ever more disgusted with our one-sided "friendship" with Saudi Arabia. I DO believe that sovereignty is a good thing... but even so. I'm not fond of what, in my worldview, is the sort of evil that I'd actually go off to risk my life to stop.

But the question is there: Do we have a right to try to change other nations? Do we even have a right to try to change other individuals? To force change on the individual level, especially with violence, doesnt' seem the right path to me. So, does that seem right on the national level?

Then again, forcing change is distinct from dealing with a threat (or a "potential" threat)

Do we have a right to go into countries like, say, Rwanda? Is it really any of our business?

My heart screams that it is, while my head says that if I am to believe in respecting international law, and the sovereignty of nations, that I must accept this, too.

So I wonder which is the greatest evil, really.

Even better, do we have a right to go in and affect other countries if we have a stake in it? That is, oil, or keeping an enemy from winning some war, or whatnot. Is that any better, any more valid?

Ahh, questions.

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Loki
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I think, under this 'Take back America for Christ,' thing, logically, non-Christians would be prized and fawned over. Because they are the target of this war, and this war is about conversion, not killing. So seems to me they'd want to treat non-Christians as royalty.

But Christianity is supposed to be about the needs and comforts of others above your own, whenever possible. Maybe these people are just as misguided as a lot of people think, I'd like to hope they actually have kind and loving intentions toward all men, but as I said in my first post in this thread, Jihad, sounds more accurate. I'll stop arguing for people I know next to nothing about and hope that they are good Christians with love in their hearts, not fear...fear is the way of the dark side.

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canadian
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quote:
talking about your Christian faith is frowned upon, in public life, these days, and that this needs to change
Whaa--?
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TomDavidson
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I'm not sure I get that, either, canadian. It's not like every politician in the country isn't showing up for church every Sunday. Being obnoxiously and ostentatiously Christian is practically a requirement for "public" life in this country.
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aupton15
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I feel like I can speak with some authority about this phenomenon (which really isn't all that new). First, despite the war metaphors, this is not a jihad. It's just strong language designed to motivate the youth to action. And the action is to save people from what they believe will be eternal damnation. So while it sounds a bit frightening at times (and can be really frightening in person), I believe their intentions are good. That's the youth...I think the adults are often misguided and provide only the information or "inspiration" needed to get the result they want. They are polarizing the youth by painting the outside world as "enemy." They purposely close off dialogue, because of the belief that the youth will leave or succomb to the temptations of the world. I grew up in an environment that was sometimes like this. Not quite to the extreme of this video, but I ran across people with this sort of militant approach. There were others who I have the utmost love and respect for to this day, who just wanted to give kids a place to hang out and feel accepted.
This turned into a bit more of a ramble than I intended. I guess what I'm saying is that this isn't a new thing, and it's probably not something we should suddenly be really worried about. It can be disturbing at times, but it should probably be understood more as a different culture than as a dangerous jihad.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"AS was said, I think it's the military like attitude being taken here,"

Well, also the "take back america for christ," thing.

To me, "taking back Las Vegas for Christ" would start with reversing this city's positively anti-Christian law against giving food to the homeless.

It's predictable but sad that some folks would leap to the conclusion that this meant something sinister. It's been an awfully long time since the crusades and an awful lot has changed. For one thing, Christians can now actually read the words of Jesus for themselves instead of being spoonfed by polititians who abuse their trust. The polititians are still there, but Christians have other options, and I think the difference shows in how Christians deal with others. Reading the Bible has not made us perfect, but it has made us better.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'm not sure I get that, either, canadian. It's not like every politician in the country isn't showing up for church every Sunday. Being obnoxiously and ostentatiously Christian is practically a requirement for "public" life in this country.

I doubt that it was Christians on the whole that voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy at the primaries, Tom.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"I suppose when they say "take back America for Christ", they might feel they need to fight an attitude that talking about your Christian faith is frowned upon, in public life, these days, and that this needs to change."

Please clarify what you mean.

I don't hold this position, but I feel sympathy for those who feel their values and beliefs are under attack. If you don't look carefully at reporting incidents, and don't take a broad look at what's going on in this country, it's not hard to interpret the "general mood" of this country as being "don't talk about your faith in public" (such as public school). There is certainly a validity to the viewpoint that there is a "hardening of the wall between church and state", though, in my opinion, this is already swinging greatly.

Again, plenty of counterexamples, but this IS a reaction I've seen in the Christian community, valid or not.

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TomDavidson
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quote:

I doubt that it was Christians on the whole that voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy at the primaries, Tom.

Ironically, while the broader point -- that Jews, as endearingly wrong-headed little cousins to Christians, are often tolerated by Christians when there's no one else around to oppress -- is valid, your specific objection is probably wrong. In other words, I'd be willing to bet that it was Christians, on the whole, who voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
On the one hand I do see a negativity towards religion that does exist in some circles. (Including here at Ornery!) But on the other I see the danger that the creationist, evangelical Christian movements, the fanatacism that exists and the hostility to other groups, and see that as a danger as well. Really, both sides are, well, not even different sides of the same coin, but the same side of the same coin!

I find it disturbing that we live in a day in which so much extremism exists. Then again... extremism exists everywhere, and seems to have always been..

Oh, and Jav, hmm. I don't generally go for "so simple it must be true" rhetoric, definitely. However, occasionally my logic DOES fail me. What I said before, not that I've cooled off, still looks to me like something interesting to consider (that is, pick apart!).

Actually, I'm growing ever more disgusted with our one-sided "friendship" with Saudi Arabia. I DO believe that sovereignty is a good thing... but even so. I'm not fond of what, in my worldview, is the sort of evil that I'd actually go off to risk my life to stop.

But the question is there: Do we have a right to try to change other nations? Do we even have a right to try to change other individuals? To force change on the individual level, especially with violence, doesnt' seem the right path to me. So, does that seem right on the national level?

Then again, forcing change is distinct from dealing with a threat (or a "potential" threat)

Do we have a right to go into countries like, say, Rwanda? Is it really any of our business?

My heart screams that it is, while my head says that if I am to believe in respecting international law, and the sovereignty of nations, that I must accept this, too.

So I wonder which is the greatest evil, really.

Even better, do we have a right to go in and affect other countries if we have a stake in it? That is, oil, or keeping an enemy from winning some war, or whatnot. Is that any better, any more valid?

Ahh, questions.

I know ya don't, which is why the surprise. Our relationship, over the last century, with Saudia Arabia has been very complicated. Nothing in our current balance with that country, and their government, is new. It's certainly something we need to constantly re-evaluate, and weigh the costs/benefits. But it's anything but simple. We could spend WEEKS discussing the possible fallout from various policies this country could take, just in regards to Saudia Arabia. And we'd barely scratch the surface, and likely miss a LOT of important implications.
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
I'm not sure I get that, either, canadian. It's not like every politician in the country isn't showing up for church every Sunday. Being obnoxiously and ostentatiously Christian is practically a requirement for "public" life in this country.

And it's statements like these, as a matter of fact, that Christians point to and go "See!"
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:

I doubt that it was Christians on the whole that voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy at the primaries, Tom.

Ironically, while the broader point -- that Jews, as endearingly wrong-headed little cousins to Christians, are often tolerated by Christians when there's no one else around to oppress -- is valid, your specific objection is probably wrong. In other words, I'd be willing to bet that it was Christians, on the whole, who voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy.
Wow, you ARE letting it all hang out today, aren't you. These quotes are going to be fun!
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TomDavidson
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quote:
And it's statements like these, as a matter of fact, that Christians point to and go "See!"
Oh, yeah. Me and my big-ass vote are going to lay the smack right down. All one of me. Because that's all it takes to drive Christianity right out of public life: just me and my withering sarcasm.

All those Senators and Congressmen who wear crosses on their lapels and accompany their wives in their Sunday best before flying off for another week of sleeping with interns and pay-for-play, they've got to have cojones of steel to risk running afoul of me and the numberless legions of myself at my command.

You know what I can't stand? All those slimy, so-called atheist Senators, the ones who pretend to a moral conscience predicated on an understanding of philosophy and logic, the ones who say "I believe that the fundamental unit of society is the self" out of the corners of their mouths while fingering rosaries behind their backs. You know what I mean, right? Of all the secular humanists in Congress, how many of them are actually humanists, and how many just call themselves humanists because their parents were, or because -- and I think this is probably the real reason -- they're pandering to me and my vote?

[ September 07, 2006, 11:17 PM: Message edited by: TomDavidson ]

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MattP
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[Smile] , or something
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
quote:

talking about your Christian faith is frowned upon, in public life, these days, and that this needs to change

Whaa--?
I think people may be confused because they are only looking at things in a political light.

Think back to high school. Think of two kids. One kid tells his friends he can't do something because it's against his religious beliefs. Another says he can't because his parents would "kill him" or just that his mom or dad says he can't. Which one is going to get teased more?

It may vary on the kids and the community but I'd guess that more and more often nowadays the first kid is going to get teased more.

Even at the workplace, if one guy during a break talked about a religious experience he recently had and another guy were to talk about some sexual escapade he recently had, it's not uncommon that the religious guy will make people more uncomfortable. He will be looked at as more weird. Certainly not all workplaces. But quite possibly a growing number of them.

It's okay to know someone is religious. But a lot of people seem to get upset or uncomfortable if you were to tell them much more than that. Perhaps they worry that you are judging them. Perhaps they think you're trying to convert them. I get uncomfortable around salesmen, too! I can understand the feeling. But some may feel like it's gone to an extreme. For some it seems like it's okay to be religious but only if you keep it private. Don't silently fold your arms and bow your head when you pray before a meal at work or you'll make people uncomfortable. That sort of thing.

I'm kinda with javelin on this. I don't hold the position he described but have sympathy for those who feel that way.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by TomDavidson:
quote:

I doubt that it was Christians on the whole that voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy at the primaries, Tom.

Ironically, while [snip Tom's religious slur] is valid, your specific objection is probably wrong. In other words, I'd be willing to bet that it was Christians, on the whole, who voted Lieberman out of the Democratic candidacy.
Let's be specific, shall we?

You are suggesting that percent of Christians voting against Lieberaman exceeded percent of Christians voting against Lieberman?

Or is this just more sour grapes on your part about the fact that Christians constitute a majority in this country?

[ September 08, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Everard
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"To me, "taking back Las Vegas for Christ" would start with reversing this city's positively anti-Christian law against giving food to the homeless.

It's predictable but sad that some folks would leap to the conclusion that this meant something sinister. It's been an awfully long time since the crusades and an awful lot has changed. For one thing, Christians can now actually read the words of Jesus for themselves instead of being spoonfed by polititians who abuse their trust. The polititians are still there, but Christians have other options, and I think the difference shows in how Christians deal with others. Reading the Bible has not made us perfect, but it has made us better."

Tell you what: You show me how Evangelical Christians of the sort this trailer is looking at will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would make life for me, as a jew or as an atheist, more uncomfortable in the united states. Then, after you've failed to do that, I'll show you at least a half dozen different ways that the language used in this trailer is designed to push non-christians aside, rather then include us as equal partners in the united states.

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javelin
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Tell you what: You show me how atheists of the sort this trailer is looking at will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would make life for me, as a Christian, more uncomfortable in the united states. Then, after you've failed to do that, I'll show you at least a half dozen different ways that the language used in this trailer is designed to push christians aside, rather then include us as equal partners in the united states.

-- It's not hard to feel persecuted when you try so hard. This is something that I've literally heard Christians say. --

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