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Loki
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I don't even know what to say.

ORNERYMOD EDIT: Fixing thread title

[ September 08, 2006, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: OrneryMod ]

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javelin
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From the link:

quote:
According to court papers, the 11-year-old girl told police she was interested romantically in the 16-year-old girl, who looked and dressed like a boy.

The alleged victim and two friends went to the 16-year-old's house, where the child performed oral sex on three teenage boys, according to court papers. The 40-year-old uncle of the 16-year-old admitted he also had sex with the 11-year-old and told police that the 16-year-old was directing the child, the papers said.

The 11-year-old then went to the basement, where there were about 15 males and she told police she "began to choose who she wanted to perform oral sex on," court papers said.

The 16-year-old told police that the 11-year-old had told her she wanted to perform oral sex on the boys in the house. The 16-year-old denied encouraging her.

The 16-year-old girl and the 15-year-old boy were charged with being a party to sexual assault. Torbenson said he will probably seek to have them tried as adults.


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pickled shuttlecock
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What makes an 11-year-old want to do things like that? What makes 15 guys complicit?

Something's rotten here. And if that's not the case, well, it's just more evidence that our sexual revolution is having a few unintended consequences.

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javelin
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Has anyone noticed how everytime we post information on a case like this, there is so much left out that we spend a whole page speculating, and then we never really get any facts in place?
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cperry
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I find that to be true about almost all news reports. I always feel as if I've missed several previous stories because I don't know A, B, C, etc. And then I find out no one knows these things, either. Frustrating, but perhaps inevitable?
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cperry
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Loki, do you still have time to go back and fix the error in the thread title? (I'm not picky about spelling in posts, but seeing it in the title just bugs me like an itch I can't scratch!)
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cperry
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I've speculated on this before (here, I think; certainly in conversations): the way we treat sex and sexuality in the US is quite different from how it's addressed in other countries and I think that difference has lead to a kind of sleaziness and abuse of sex here that may not be quite as common in places where nudity and sex are treated as more natural and less sensational.

Anyway....

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Gaoics79
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These kinds of cases are so murky, because one questions whether there really was even a victim in any conventional sense of the word. Let's be honest: there's at least as much if not more wrong with the 11 year old who eagerly consented to a 20 boy gang bang as there is with the boys who participated.

Sigh. I still think they should all be charged with statutory rape, but this clearly isn't your typical black/white rape case.

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flydye45
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"A 40-year-old man who also had sex with the child may also be charged, authorities said."

[Exploding]

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LoverOfJoy
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The way the article was written seemed very odd.

The first line says:
quote:
An 11-year-old girl was sexually assaulted by as many as 20 boys as a 16-year-old girl watched and told her what sex acts to perform, authorities say in the latest mob attack to rock Milwaukee and set off another round of civic soul-searching.
This one event seems very different from the other "mob attacks" mentioned later in the article. It then goes on to quote a "director of the neighborhood-improvement group" as she laments how embarrassing this is and how people should be outraged by this.

It describes some of the details of this most recent case and then goes on to tell about cases.

quote:
Several mob attacks have taken place in Milwaukee's inner city in recent years. In 2002, more than a dozen people, mostly boys,
2002? Then a couple more mentioned in 2004? Murders have gone down but assaults have gone up by 22% and the most recent attacks you can find are from 2-4 years ago? Granted, they are horrible crimes but it seems like the article's trying to turn it into some sort of crime spree.

Also, what's the purpose of the mostly boys comment? What was it anyway. 9 boys and 4 girls? So make sure everyone knows it was mostly boys? Or are they saying that it was mostly 12-18 year olds with a few "adult" 20 year olds thrown in? It seems the author is trying to tell us something with this comment but it's hard to tell what.

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Gaoics79
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And the way the involvement of the 40 year old man is underplayed and glossed over is just bizarre. Surely his presence at the scene is the 800 lbs gorilla, yet one could almost miss it if one does not read carefully.
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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by cperry:
I've speculated on this before (here, I think; certainly in conversations): the way we treat sex and sexuality in the US is quite different from how it's addressed in other countries and I think that difference has lead to a kind of sleaziness and abuse of sex here that may not be quite as common in places where nudity and sex are treated as more natural and less sensational.

If that were true, you'd expect Brigham Young University to be the most sex-drenched school in the nation.

There are obviously other forces at work, and most likely much stronger ones.

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JohnLocke
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Notwithstanding the 40-year-old's alleged crime, it seems hyperbolic to call this a "gang rape" since the girl may very well still remain a virgin, in the anatomical sense.

This article was written by a self-reinforcing state of mind.

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Loki
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Someone mentioned a sexual revolution, all that came into my mind regarding that phrase and children was 'erotic play.' Are we heading to a brave New World? Or are we going to go through a period of regression, regretting as a whole, the direction we have gone with sex, sexuality, and the freedom to express it with anyone; Are we going to try to revert to a time when marriage was sacred and sex was with your spouse, did that time even exist?

These kind of events seem pretty common, it's not always that they're a news story, but having heard about four or five when I was in the high school gossip circle a couple years ago, and a few even after high school, they seem like a regular thing. Are these going to become more common? Are people going to have to accept that girls are becoming sexually active at ages like 10 or 11, or is some fundamental change in media, family, ideals ... or something, going to happen?


Sorry about tile spelling, it was late when I found this. I get my i's and e's crossed when i'm tired.

[ September 08, 2006, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Loki ]

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pickled shuttlecock
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I wouldn't assume frequency of hearing a type of event in high school gossip has any bearing on the frequency of actual events - especially the titillating ones.
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Gaoics79
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quote:
These kind of events seem pretty common, it's not always that they're a news story, but having heard about four or five when I was in the high school gossip circle a couple years ago, and a few even after high school, they seem like a regular thing. Are these going to become more common? Are people going to have to accept that girls are becoming sexually active at ages like 10 or 11, or is some fundamental change in media, family, ideals ... or something, going to happen?
I find it incredibly hard to believe that 11 year old gang bangs are in any way shape or form "common". It reminds me of the "rainbow party" and "satanic sexual abuse" stories that became common a few years back. In both cases, they turned out to be urban legends or hoaxes.

I am sure that many of the things teenagers do would be shocking to adults, even young ones like me. But let's not let our imaginations run away from us, especially when proof is sorely lacking.

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0Megabyte
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I'd like to see more detail. I raelly have no idea what happened, based on the article...
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Loki
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I agree and disagree with you Shuttlecock, would you go to the authorities if a high school girl told you she was involved in an event like the article? Or brush it off as high school gossip?

Not necessarily 11 year old 'gang bangs', which this really wasn't, but groups of boys getting oral sex from a few younger girls all at once. I knew a couple girls who did this kind of thing. This exact thing may not be common, but things like it definitely are.

If you don't believe this kind of thing happens often, I think you're deluding yourself...

[ September 08, 2006, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Loki ]

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cperry
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quote:
Originally posted by pickled shuttlecock:
quote:
Originally posted by cperry:
I've speculated on this before (here, I think; certainly in conversations): the way we treat sex and sexuality in the US is quite different from how it's addressed in other countries and I think that difference has lead to a kind of sleaziness and abuse of sex here that may not be quite as common in places where nudity and sex are treated as more natural and less sensational.

If that were true, you'd expect Brigham Young University to be the most sex-drenched school in the nation.

There are obviously other forces at work, and most likely much stronger ones.

I wasn't clear enough. It seems to me that many people in the US have culturally inherited weird Victorian, prudish attitudes about sex and nudity (not be be confused with deeply rooted moral sensibility about intercourse and the human body). Yet we are attracted to sex and nudity; therefore, we have TV, music, and films that celebrate sex without love, nudity without any innocence at all.

I would posit that many students at BYU were raised with different foundations for their attitudes about sex and nudity.

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cperry
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quote:
Originally posted by Loki:
Sorry about tile spelling, it was late when I found this. I get my i's and e's crossed when i'm tired.

No worries. Embedded in a post, I wouldn't have even noticed. Just a personal problem. Thanks Mod for the fix.
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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by cperry:
I wasn't clear enough. It seems to me that many people in the US have culturally inherited weird Victorian, prudish attitudes about sex and nudity (not be be confused with deeply rooted moral sensibility about intercourse and the human body).

I've never seen "Victorian and prudish" separated from "deeply rooted moral sensibility" before - I've always seen the two equated by the people who use the word "prudish." Can you elaborate?
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TommySama
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"rainbow party"

It's true, we boys never get rainbow party's [Frown]


"I'd like to see more detail. I raelly have no idea what happened, based on the article..."

Ugh, I don't want ANY details about what that little girl did. From the article it looks like she consented. Proper legal action based on the fact that she consented, but was underage should be applied (I think in my state AoC is 16, and if you are under that, the person you are banging has to be within 36 months of age with you).

[ September 09, 2006, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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cperry
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I think of Victorian, prudish attitudes about sex as not based in anything ethical -- just a pattern of behavior picked up from the surrounding cultural influences without much thought given to it or without much consideration for the reasons for it. As opposed to one who chooses a moral stance on a topic (here, sex and nudity) based in personal beliefs.

In this way, some are titillated by nudity and sex and still profess, "It's wrong." I guess these are the people who decry the kind of stuff they see on MTV but keep watching it anyway.

Perhaps this is a faulty differentiation, but it's one I've worked with for quite some time now. When I think of the word "prude," I think of someone who has a problem with nudity and sex. I don't think people who believe nudity and sex are not for public observation are necessarily prudes.

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flydye45
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"In this way, some are titillated by nudity and sex and still profess, "It's wrong." "

No, almost every male is titillated and attracted to sex and nudity. Everyone thinks sugar is great too, on the first taste.

Does that make a steady diet of sugar a good thing? Does that negate the negative effects of sugar? Keeping to a Kit Kat a few times a week is okay. A smorgasbord of candy every day is not. And unlike the Kit Kat, relationships and children are devestated as a result.

Europe talks a good talk, but they also have strong family and cultural pressures working contrary to it. The abortion rate and unwed pregnancy rate in France is a fraction of America. Why?

It isn't the "Victorians" who are making these ads. I enjoy them but I also see that the sex drenched society that the "it's perfectly natural" crowd is espousing leads to ...eleven year olds giving hummers.

Thanks guys.

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canadian
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"Thanks guys."

I sure hope that's said in irony...

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Richard Dey
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BYU

According to IHI correspondants on the BYU campus, "sex is widespread" but "cloaked in fustian." The Gay Guide to Campy Campuses (2005), using BYU Affirmation data, says: 'BYU is notorious for its "illicit sex", whatever that is.'

When students sought to memorialize 24 gay Mormons who were driven to suicide by their religion, they were arrested on campus.

This comment from the demonstration:

On April 10 some 200 demonstrators heard Matt Kulisch, a 23-year-old BYU student and returned missionary, speak at a rally held in a park adjacent to BYU's Provo campus. Kulisch shared an experience he had when he survived a potentially deadly car accident. After the mishap, Kulisch's mother told him it would have been better if God had taken him from the earth rather than leave him to be gay. "The sad part," Kulisch added, "is I believed her."

Fellatio, not often a heading around here [Wink]

... as we discussed before, was chic last year; it just takes a while for fashions to reach the provinces, I guess. Cripes, our local school-bus scandal was years ago now [Smile] , and "mutual masturbation" is now the school-bus scene!

But to oblige any boy, let alone a man, to admit that an 11-year-old girl performed fellatio on him successfully would seem to me public humiliation -- and, thus, child abuse.

If "petting" wasn't fellatio, were we doing it all wrong 50 years ago?

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cperry
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
"In this way, some are titillated by nudity and sex and still profess, "It's wrong." "

No, almost every male is titillated and attracted to sex and nudity. Everyone thinks sugar is great too, on the first taste.

Does that make a steady diet of sugar a good thing? Does that negate the negative effects of sugar? Keeping to a Kit Kat a few times a week is okay. A smorgasbord of candy every day is not. And unlike the Kit Kat, relationships and children are devestated as a result.

Um, that's not what I was saying at all. What I'm trying to point out is the (what I see as) unusual percentage of folks in the US who are fascinated by sex and nudity (S&N from here on out) but who kick and scream that it is a bad thing. And I'm trying to figure out why that exists here in what I would guess are larger percentages than in many other places on this planet.

In other words, I agree with you about sugar and Kit Kats, I think, but I so don't understand your last sentence above.

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cperry
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quote:
Originally posted by flydye45:
Europe talks a good talk, but they also have strong family and cultural pressures working contrary to it. The abortion rate and unwed pregnancy rate in France is a fraction of America. Why?

It isn't the "Victorians" who are making these ads. I enjoy them but I also see that the sex drenched society that the "it's perfectly natural" crowd is espousing leads to ...eleven year olds giving hummers.

Thanks guys.

I'm sorry. Maybe you're referencing another post, but I have no idea what "ads" you mean. And who is the "is's perfectly natural" crowd? 'Cause I don't see any of them hanging around here.
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hobsen
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The "sexual revolution" of the sixties has been exaggerated. What happened was that young people had been told to avoid sex until they had finished their educations, which meant high school at most and for many grade school. When large numbers started to go to college after World War II, they tried to follow the same standard; and the attempt caused more harm than good. So accepted behavior changed about fifteen years later, to match the new conditions.

Those who did not go to college continued to follow whatever had been the customs of their communities. But the college educated wrote more, so the change seemed greater than it was. And half what they said came from surprise at meeting people who had different customs than those of their own home towns.

Kipling knew better when he wrote,
quote:
Still the world is wondrous large, -seven seas from marge to marge-
And it holds a vast of various kinds of man;
And the wildest dreams of Kew are the facts of Khatmandhu
And the crimes of Clapham chaste in Martaban.

On a smaller scale, the same is true of the United States.
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cperry
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Excellent quote, hobsen.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"If "petting" wasn't fellatio, were we doing it all wrong 50 years ago?"

Like someone told me once:

if at first you don't succeed,

suc and suc some more.

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