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Author Topic: In the year 2071, the Pan-American Empire crushed the last group of
Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
quote:
I'm talking about rights created by law. But the laws of most nations take international norms into consideration, so we're back to my original question. You could adapt it and ask, what *should* the law be?
And which law creates such a right? Is there a law that creates a right in land based on historical/ethnic ties, that says: "because you belong to ethnic group X, which inhabited country Y, Z centuries ago, you are entitled to assume control of land Y."? Can you cite this law?
You are asking me my own question. That's much more painful than having the punch line of my own Istanbull joke explained to me [Big Grin] If I knew how to cite it, I would not ask that question. I just see lots of guys talking about stolen watches and whatnot, so I asked what the relevant law is here.


quote:
Which country has deigned to legislate this? More importantly, who even has the authority to legislate such a thing, and who is willing to enforce it?
Well, since the legal penalty appears to be getting nagged and yelled at, there seems to be at will enforcement. My question is, what the law is in the first place. These additional questions you've asked about where it was legislated and what the authority is are also interesting questions.

quote:
As for "international norms", the only such norm I am familiar with is that of those with power enforcing their will (for good or bad) on those without power.
No, that's not what a norm is. Norms are even more prominent when a bunch of powerless people make lots of noise about a violator that they can't do anything to stop, but norms also sometimes have a great deal of pressure, e.g. when Lincoln felt obliged to back off his threat to hang Confederate sailors as pirates.

quote:
Really? Where did I do that? I think you've confused me with someone else, Jason. I spoke to positive law, to tradition, to international law and norms.
---------
If I misunderstood or misstated what you said, then I apologize. I was actually referring to the part where you said

quote:
Suppose that I asked a question instead of making an argument. Assuming that what you said is true, how long until one loses the right? Five minutes? Five years? Fifty years? Five hundred? Five thousand?
------
You referred to one losing a "right", so I assumed you pre-supposed the existence of said right.

I'm asking about how the right is conceived within the norms of those who use those watch analogies I was speaking of.

quote:
I assumed that the purpose of your original analogy was to demonstrate the historical claim of the Jews to Israel by using an obvious Muslim claim based on a fictitious future scenario. I responded by denying what I deemed to be the premise of your argument: that one can have a "right" in land based purely on historical ethnic ties.
In your scheme of things, no; I understand that. My question addresses those who say that Israel has no right to the land, but that the Palestinians do. I'm interested in the rule, source of the rule, rationale, where it's been applied before, etc. Essentially, I'm asking for evidence that someone's not just pulling a principle out of their ass for results-driven convenience.

I don't agree with your rationale completely Jason, but I do respect your pragmatism and your public policy of avoiding violence.

But I think you're actually insufficiently pragmatic if you think that the Jews could ever give up Solomon's temple or that Muslims could ever give up the Kaaba. Whether they should or shouldn't is immaterial. They can't.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"The Amish Kingdom of Arabia was overrun in 2892 by the spreading Kurdish empire, who by now considered themselves Khufirs since other Muslims had rejected them for so long, but within a century, the Kurds converted in mass to the Maoist religion. It wasn't until the thirty-sixth century, in the aftermath of the First Interplanetary War (IWI), when the United Bantu Peoples liberated Khufiristan from the iron grip of his holiness Mao Zedong LXXVI."

I really don't think Pete is getting enough credit here for the wonderful lunacy he invests in the names he grants his future history.

I'm glad someone's appreciating it [Big Grin]

[ September 15, 2006, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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FYI, KM, the People's Republic of China does actually own its own copy of the Catholic Church, a version that does not answer to Rome. Odd, neh? An atheist country with an institution of religion.
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Tom Curtis
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Ev:

quote:
More like about 500. At times its been only a local government, true.
Taking our time from the end of the Babylonian captivity, around 540 BC, the Jews have had an independant kingdom only for the period of the Hasmoneans (about 163 BC to 63 BC) and durring under the modern nation of Israel, for a total of 158 years. Durring that period, they only controlled galillee from 103 BC to 63 BC, or a total of 98 years. Counting the later reign of the Hasmoneans and that of the Herods, you can add another 180 years to that figure at most, so at most the Jews have ruled over the territories of Samaria and Galilee for 280 years.

By saying they ruled for 500 years, it suggests you want to count the entire period of Syrian and Greek dominance as being indepentant Jewish rule, but durring none of that period did they control any territory outside of Judea proper.

quote:
Depends on how you define "part." Several of the holy cities have had a jewish majority extending back to the crusades. And, since judea is about half of modern israel, I see you are concedeing me abotu a millenium of jewish majority presence in a large chunk of the land we're talking about.
Judea was about 1/6 the of modern Israel, as it did not include the Negev, any part of Galillee, any part of Samaria, or any part of Gaza (Philistia). Curiously, most of what was Judea actually lies inside the West Bank.

As to whether the Jews formed a majority in Judea, the probably did from the time of the united kingdom until the exile (400 years), and from some time after the exile until the bar kocba rebellion, which does add to a thousand years. After that, they were distinctly a minority most of the time, though they achieved a localised majority in Jerusalem (I gather) at the end of that period, and have done so since 1948.

Much of the rhetorical force of the Jews claim to be returning to "their land" is based on not examining the actual historical connection of the Jews to Israel, which is no more extensive than that of the Palestinians; and of ignoring the difference between an Israelite and a Judean.

Had the Jews really been basing their claim on history, they would have returned to, and claimed only the territory from between Jordan and the Mediterrainian, and between Beersheba and just north of Jerusalem, but excluding the Gaza strip.

quote:
Well, this is just some made up gibberish, as far as I can tell. The palestinians are primarily arab. Huge chunks of the people who call themselves palestinians now had ancestors who only very recently moved into whats now israel from egypt, syria, lebanon, jordan, and iraq.
Genetic studies show Palestinians to have been living in the immediate vicinity of Israel for 5,000 odd years. They have had significant influxes of other populations, most notably around 39% of peninsular Arabs in the male line (though probably much less in the female line), but most of that occured over a thousand years ago. I know you don't like this fact, but fact it remains. Even the significant minority arab origin of the population means that their descendants have been local residents for over a thousand years, ie, for a longer period than most Jews can claim residence in their ancestry.


quote:
We propose that the Y chromosomes in Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin represent, to a large extent, early lineages derived from the Neolithic inhabitants of the area and additional lineages from more-recent population movements. The early lineages are part of the common chromosome pool shared with Jews (Nebel et al. 2000). According to our working model, the more-recent migrations were mostly from the Arabian Peninsula, as is seen in the Arab-specific Eu 10 chromosomes that include the modal haplotypes observed in Palestinians and Bedouin. These haplotypes and their one-step microsatellite neighbors constitute a substantial portion of the total Palestinian (29%) and Bedouin (37.5%) Y chromosome pools and were not found in any of the non-Arab populations in the present study. The peripheral position of the modal haplotypes, with few links in the network (fig. 5), suggests that the Arab-specific chromosomes are a result of recent gene flow. Historical records describe tribal migrations from Arabia to the southern Levant in the Byzantine period, migrations that reached their climax with the Muslim conquest 633640 A.D.; Patrich 1995). Indeed, Arab-specific haplotypes have been observed at significant frequencies in Muslim Arabs from Sena (56%) and the Hadramaut (16%) in the Yemen (Thomas et al. 2000). Thus, although Y chromosome data of Arabian populations are limited, it seems very likely that populations from the Arabian Peninsula were the source of these chromosomes. The genetic closeness, in classical protein markers, of Bedouin to Yemenis and Saudis (Cavalli-Sforza et al. 1994) supports an Arabian origin of the Bedouin. The alternative explanation for the distribution of the Arab-specific haplotypes (i.e., random genetic drift) is unlikely. It is difficult to imagine that the different populations in the Yemen and the southern Levant, in which Arab-specific chromosomes have been detected at moderate-to-high frequencies, would have drifted in the same direction.
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v69n5/013033/013033.text.html?erFrom=-4903429909299732246Guest

quote:
Because we tried to establish a state there, and did establish a state there, while the palestinians only attempts to establish a state prior to the last 15 years or so were done so with the declared intent of genocide as a necessary component of their national movement.
At best, this is an attempt to claim a right on other grounds than prior inhabitation, and so is irrelevant to this particular discussion. It is also, however, wrong in fact.

Immediately after WW1 the Syrians declared an independant nation which included the territory of Palestine. A Palestinian National Congress met and declared that they wanted to be part of that nation. The consequence was that the Syrian government was crushed by the French, and the wishes of the Palestinians to be part of that nation were simply ignored by the British.

It is not that the Palestinians have not given majority support for an independant nation governing their territory - it is that Jews, British and French have simply ignored that fact as inconvenient to their particular desires.

As always, the nationalist aspirations of Palestinians were ignored because they did not conveniently coincide with lines the British and French agreed beween them to draw on a map.

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Everard
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Tom-
Before you jump on that genetic data as proof that palestinians have been in the area longer then jews, you should look at the rest of the genetic data. A complete look at the data shows that jews have ties to the land that extend back at least as far as the palestinians.

"At best, this is an attempt to claim a right on other grounds than prior inhabitation, and so is irrelevant to this particular discussion."

Then you shouldn't have opened the door here:

"What I don't understand is why the presence of a small population of Jews in Jerusalem for 2,000 years gives a right to all those Jews whose ancestors have not lived in Palestine for over 1800 years (and for most of their ancestors cases over 2,500 years) to live in Palestine; and a right to live their superior to the Palestinians, most of whose ancestors have lived in Palestine for over 1500 years."

"A Palestinian National Congress met and declared that they wanted to be part of that nation. The consequence was that the Syrian government was crushed by the French, and the wishes of the Palestinians to be part of that nation were simply ignored by the British."

Have you LOOKED at that palestinian national congress recently? You make my point for me by citing them. Genocide man, genocide. It was part of the plan. And thinking of the palestinian national congress as a national congress in those days would be like thinking of the massachusetts bay congress as a national congress in the 1690's.

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Tom Curtis
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Ev:

quote:
Before you jump on that genetic data as proof that palestinians have been in the area longer then jews, you should look at the rest of the genetic data. A complete look at the data shows that jews have ties to the land that extend back at least as far as the palestinians.
I quite agree. The data suports historical evidence which shows the Palestinians come from the general region of Palestine, while the Jews come from the general region of Judea. Both have had significant influxes from other populations, the Palestinians from immigrations and conquests of the area, the Jews from out marriage in the diaspora.

Both have equally legitimate claims to the land on the basis of ancient history. Perhaps I should phrase that, the Jews have a better claim than anyone else to Judea, and Judea alone on ancient history, and no reasonable claim to Gaza, the Negev, Samaria or Gallilee on the basis of ancient history.

The Palestinians undoubtedly have a better claim to Palestine than the Jews on the basis of modern history (post enlightenment), and the Jews have a better claim to the territory of Israel, excluding the West Bank, Gaza and the Golan Heights if we look only at recent history (post 1945).

There is no way to sort that mess into evidence in favour of absolutist claims for either side.

quote:
"A Palestinian National Congress met and declared that they wanted to be part of that nation. The consequence was that the Syrian government was crushed by the French, and the wishes of the Palestinians to be part of that nation were simply ignored by the British."

Have you LOOKED at that palestinian national congress recently? You make my point for me by citing them. Genocide man, genocide. It was part of the plan. And thinking of the palestinian national congress as a national congress in those days would be like thinking of the massachusetts bay congress as a national congress in the 1690's.

The Palestinian National Congress to which I refered was founded in 1919, and so named (no boubt) in reference to the firs Arab National Congress (1913), and no doubt the African National Congress (South Africa), and the Indian National Congress (India) which formed in the same period.

It is distinct from the Palestinian National Council, which was founded in 1964, with a platform that all Jews not descendants of Jews resident in Palestine prior to 1880 should be expelled from Palestine; and some of whose members have called for effective genocide (or possibly actual genocide).

Now, why should the ill practise of the later organisation tar the reputation of the former?

quote:
1919

Jan.: Versailles Peace Conference decides that the conquered Arab provinces will not be restored to Ottoman rule.
Jan. 27-Feb. 10: First Palestinian National Congress meeting in Jerusalem sends 2 memoranda to Versailles rejecting Balfour Declaration and demanding independence.
June-July: Henry King and Charles Crane, US members of International Commission of Inquiry, proceed to Middle East alone after failure of Britain and France to join the Commission set up to examine the wishes of the people of Palestine. The findings of the King-Crane Commission were kept secret for 3 years and were not published until 1947.

quote:
1964

Jan. 13: First Arab Summit Conference held in Cairo.
March 17: First Palestinian delegation, Yasser Arafat and Khalil el-Wazir to China, confers with Premier Chou-En-Lai.
May 28: The First Palestinian National Council (PNC) meets in Jerusalem.
June 2: Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) founded.
Aug. 9: The first Executive Committee of the PLO formed of 14 members.
Sept. 5-11: The second Arab Summit meets in Cairo and "Welcomed the establishment of the PLO as the basis of the Palestinian entity and as a pioneer in the collective Arab struggle for the Liberation of Filastin."

I don't know what to make of your Massachussets refference. The Palestinians only formed a distinct Palestinian National Congress after the British demarked an administrative territory of Palestine. You appear to be suggesting that any Palestinian nationalism before that event was illegitimate, and can be ignored because it was not distinctively Palestinian, and that any Palestinian nationalism after that even can be ignored because it was based on the administrative district of Palestine. For the Palestinians, apparently, head they lose, and tails you win.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
"Genetic studies show Palestinians to have been living in the immediate vicinity of Israel for 5,000 odd years."
How does that work, exactly? [Big Grin] Sounds like someone's making a number of big assumptions there.
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Pete at Home
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quote:
1919

Jan.: Versailles Peace Conference decides that the conquered Arab provinces will not be restored to Ottoman rule.
Jan. 27-Feb. 10: First Palestinian National Congress meeting in Jerusalem sends 2 memoranda to Versailles rejecting Balfour Declaration and demanding independence.

Ah. I guess that pushes the date back to 1910 that the term "Palestinian" is being used as a rejection of having Jewish neighbors. That's a pity. It kind of closes the window between colonial Palestinine and Palestine=rejection of Jews. It doesn't prove in itself that Palestine never meant anything else, but makes it very difficult to separate. It's a hard question to ask, and I could understand why you became so frustrated. I can't completely reject KM's assertion that nations are born of war, but over a century, one would expect more than that from a nation.
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Loki
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My answer comes from lifespans. No one who has 'their' land taken will be alive 150 years from them, and only the youngest childrens children.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"...assertion that nations are born of war, but over a century, one would expect more than that from a nation."

Yet here we are, almost 250 years old, protecting the homeland via a War on Terror. Not just born of, but sustained by, war.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"...assertion that nations are born of war, but over a century, one would expect more than that from a nation."

Yet here we are, almost 250 years old, protecting the homeland via a War on Terror. Not just born of, but sustained by, war.

"Yet" suggests that you conceive some contradiction between what you said and what I said. Perhaps you have read my words "more than that" in the warm fuzzy sense of being evolved beyond a need for war. I simply meant that not all of our country's major accomplishments involve some form of homicide or justification thereof.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Palestine's major accomplishments are decidedly not limited to homicide and justifications thereof.

That's just raw defamation on your part. Palestinians are SURVIVING. Under current circumstances, tha's a major accomplishment.

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TommySama
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"tha's a major accomplishment."

Word, Homie.

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Pete at Home
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I guess that surviving self-inflicted circumstances is considered an accomplishment for Eivel Kneivel. The US survived the Civil War, and in a sense that's an accomplishment. But it ain't nothing to hang your hat on.

Surviving self-inflicted circumstances while receiving massive international aid to help you survive, and repeatedly electing leaders that squander and misuse that money to the point that you need more bail-out ... I don't see it.

If Palestine's survival is an accomplishment, it's not necessarily its own accomplishment.

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Pete at Home
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Ah, Jason, in partial answer to your question:

quote:
“In the event that there is no “controlling executive or legislative act or judicial decision” that the court must apply, a court should identify the norms of customary international law by looking to “the general usage and practice of nations [,] or by [looking to] judicial decisions recognizing and enforcing that law ...[, or by] consulting the works of jurists writing professedly on public law,” United States v. Smith, 18 U.S. (5 Wheat.) 153 (1820) (Story, J.).”

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canadian
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quote:
Originally posted by Pete at Home:
I guess that surviving self-inflicted circumstances is considered an accomplishment for Eivel Kneivel. The US survived the Civil War, and in a sense that's an accomplishment. But it ain't nothing to hang your hat on.

Surviving self-inflicted circumstances while receiving massive international aid to help you survive, and repeatedly electing leaders that squander and misuse that money to the point that you need more bail-out ... I don't see it.

If Palestine's survival is an accomplishment, it's not necessarily its own accomplishment.

Interesting product, but a pretty difficult sale.
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Tom Curtis
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Pete has trotted out that defamation before, and I responded with two independant lists of notable Palestinians. Here is another one:
http://www.palestine-family.net/index.php?nav=3-83

Here is another:

quote:
CULTURAL ADVANCEMENT OF THE PALESTINE ARABS

Contrary to the Zionist assertions that Palestine was a cultural backwater, Palestine was a dynamic center of Arab culture, producing many scholars and authors. Between 1919 and 1944,209 books were published in Palestine, while many more works by Palestine Arabs were published in Beirut, Damascus and Cairo, as well as in England, America and France.

Some leading Palestinian scholars and authors during the recent past in Palestine were:(69)

Yusuf Diya-uddin Pasha al-Khalidi was a noted scholar in the 19th century who lectured at the University of Vienna. He wrote the first Arabic-Kurdish dictionary.

Khalil Sakakini was a distinguished scholar and essayist. He was the founder of the Dusturiyah School in Jerusalem in 1909 and its headmaster. Among his books was Readings in Philology and Literature.

kuhi al-Khalidi was a pioneer in modem historiography in the late 19th and early 20th century. He wrote, among other works, The Eastern Question, and A Comparative Study of Arabic and French Literature.

Adil Zu'aiter was a lawyer and translator from French into Arabic. He translated works of Rousseau, Voltaire, Anatole France, Montesquieu and Lamartine.

Ahmad Samih al-Khalidi, who held a degree in Psychology from the American University of Beirut, was the author of several volumes on pedagogy that became standard textbooks in several Arab countries. He also translated into Arabic works by Maria Montessori and the German psychologist Wilhelm Stekel.

Khalil Baydas was a Russian scholar and pioneer of the modem Palestinian novel. As early as 1898 he translated some of the works of Tolstoy and Pushkin into Arabic.

Ishak Musa Husseini held a degree from the School of Oriental Studies, London University, and was the author of several works on Islamic and Arab history in addition to a novel, The Diaries of a Hen.

Abdurrahman Bushnaq was a graduate of the Arab College in Jerusalem and of Cambridge University whose publications include a translation into Arabic of The Splendid Spur by Sir Arthur Quiller-Couch.

Qadri Tuqan from Nablus was a mathematician and the author of a history of Arab science.

George Antonius was the author of The Arab Awakening, a history highly acclaimed in England and the United States. In 1930 he became Middle Eastern Associate at the Institute of World Affairs in New York.

Francis Khayat was the author of Lectures in Mercantile Law.

Is'af al-Nashashibi was the author of Modern Science and Us.

Anbarah Salam al-Khalidi was the translator of Homer's The Odyssey.

Faidi al-Alami was an Islamic scholar of the late 19th and early 20th century who wrote a concordance to the Holy Koran.

Mrs. Matiel Moghannam was a Palestinian Arab feminist leader who wrote a book published in London in 1937, The Arab Woman and the Palestine Problem.

Salim Katul, a teacher in Jerusalem, was the author of a series of textbooks in Arabic on the natural sciences.

Mohammad Izat Darwazah wrote several books from 1950-51 about the Arab Renaissance and Arab Nationalism.

Mustapha Murad Al Dabagh wrote an historical and geographical encyclopedia.

In 1923 Omar Alsaleh, Al Barghouty and Khalil Totah wrote books on the history of Palestine and studies of Arab customs and folklore.

Wadi Al Bustani wrote a book about the Palestine Mandate in 1936 entitled, It is Null and Void.

In 1936 Amin Akl, Ibrahim Najim and Abu Nasr wrote a book about the struggle of the Palestinians.

In 1937 Issa Alsifri wrote a book about Arab Palestinians between Zionism and the Mandate.

In 1946 Najib Sadaqah wrote a book on the problem of Palestine.

In 1932 Moharnmad Ali Taher wrote a book on Nazarat Al Shura.

In 1939 Ahmad Tarbeen wrote a book, Palestine, Zionism and Colonialism. He also wrote a book containing his lectures on the history of Palestine 1936-45.

Musa Al Alami wrote The Lesson of Palestine, 1949. Thabit al-Khalidi was the author of a chemistry textbook.

Wasfi Anabtawi was the author of several geography textbooks.

Sa'id B. Hamadeh, Professor of Applied Economics, American University of Beirut, wrote Economic Organization of Palestine in 1938.

Sami Wafa Dajjani, formerly Chemical Engineer of the Palestine Potash Company, wrote The History of the Dead Sea.

Basim Faris wrote Electric Power in Syria and Palestine in 1936.

Notable Palestinian Arab poets included Ibrahim Tuqan, Issam Abbasi, Muhammad Adnani, Jalal Zurayq, and Kamal Nasir among many others.

The above list is only representative of Palestinian Arab scholars and authors who made significant cultural contributions during the years leading up to 1948. It is by no means exhaustive, but suffices to illustrate the qualitative level of culture among the Palestinian Arabs.

http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Chapter02_3of3.htm#55_cult%20target=

The question for Pete is, does he have any evidence for a lack of Palestinian cultural achievement, other (of course) than the fact that books written in Arabic tend not to make the NYT best sellers list?

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Everard
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"There is no way to sort that mess into evidence in favour of absolutist claims for either side."

Ok. I'm glad we agree on the genetics and ancient history, for the most part.

From your preceeding post I was worried you were going to make the ridiculous claim that jews have no historical claim to the land.

"Now, why should the ill practise of the later organisation tar the reputation of the former?"

Thats not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that the former also had many ill practices. Its really difficult to find much information about the first few palestinian national congresses on the web so I'm afraid I won't be able to provide links, but the two major points I wished to make in the preceeding post are

1) The first several palestinian national congresses also endorsed throwing all the jews out of palestine.
2) The massachusetts bay reference was to say that the first several congresses represented the palestinian population in about the same way the massachusetts bay congress represented the united states population. That is, almost not at all.

" You appear to be suggesting that any Palestinian nationalism before that event was illegitimate, and can be ignored because it was not distinctively Palestinian, and that any Palestinian nationalism after that even can be ignored because it was based on the administrative district of Palestine."

I'm dismissing palestinian nationalism that is not palestinian, because if its not palestinian, then its not palestinian nationalism. Surely you see that. Pan-arabism, which is what the palestinians were embracing for the most part from the early 20th century until 1967, is not the same as asking for a palestinian state. At the same time that the first palestinian national congress formed, the palestinian delegates to the pan-arab congress elected a king to rule over them who was currently residing in damascus... and was a noted killer of jews. And I am dismissing palestinian nationalism that is distinctly palestinian because that nationalist movement has in large part been concerend with slaughtering jews.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"The US survived the Civil War, and in a sense that's an accomplishment. But it ain't nothing to hang your hat on."

We've had long discussions here at Ornery on the Civil War in which almost allparticipants concluded that without the Civil War, the USA was just a petty confederation whose Declaration of Independence mocked itself in the institution of chattel slavery.

You're succumbing to sophistry again, Peter.

Having a bright mind and a fair verbal processor allows one to wright much ornate trellis work... but the rose-vine needs real soil.

You lead with your contempt for Palestine, then follow with your arguments. The latter lag behind the former; they don't keep up.

Here's some perspective on Palestinian Survival:


Survival

(sample paragraph) "Could your mind really be so washed with the security excuse, used to forbid Gaza students from studying occupational therapy at Bethlehem and medicine at Abu Dis, and preventing sick people from Rafah from receiving medical treatment in Ramallah? Will also you find it easy to hide behind the explanation "we had no idea": we had no idea that the discrimination practiced in the distribution of water - which is solely controlled by Israel - leaves thousands of Palestinian households without water during the hot summer months; we had no idea that when the IDF blocks the entrance to villages, it also blocks their access to springs or water tanks."

KNievel is, I believe, a Jewish name?

[ September 16, 2006, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I simply meant that not all of our country's major accomplishments involve some form of homicide or justification thereof."

Just thought I'd quote that to let its brutal dismissal speak for itself.

Never mind that nations are born of war.

The statement as written is worthy of Mein Kampf. It deploys the kind of irrational defamation used against the Jews by Hitler, according to whom all their accomplishments were based on verminous impulses and depravity.

edited to add that "The statement as written" refers to its contextual reference to Palestine.

[ September 16, 2006, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Surviving self-inflicted circumstances while receiving massive international aid to help you survive, and repeatedly electing leaders that squander and misuse that money to the point that you need more bail-out ... I don't see it."

I note here that the current American economy resembles the above. The massive foreign aid we receve isn't called such, of course. It is simply foreign debt. As for squandering leaders: aye. As for self-inflicted circumstances: the Carter administration had as one of its main, or perhaps its prime, goals, an attempt to create alternative energy sources and foster energy efficiency and fuel conservation so that we wouldn't be where we are now: driving Hummers and fighting oil wars abroad under a fallacious flag of "freedom".

Reagan came along and this goal was promptly scrapped. Only VERY recently have any noticeable noises on this line been heard from the Oval Orifice.

[ September 16, 2006, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
The question for Pete is, does he have any evidence for a lack of Palestinian cultural achievement,
I'm not arguing that they have no cultural achievements. I've simply asked you to give me examples of Palestinian cultural achievements, since I don't know any. The fact that you've responded by attacking me and making ludicrous accusations does not prove that the Palestinians have no cultural achievements. It just shows that you're too vain to admit you don't know something and want to pick a fight to cover up the fact. Kindly do not butt in with false and foolish inferences while I ask persons more informed than you for evidence of Palestinian cultural accomplishments.


Kenmeer's little holocaust-trivializing analogy doesnt' hold either. Hitler called people "Jews" who did not even consider themselves Jews. Me, I'm questioning whether those persons labeled "Palestinians" have considerered themselves Palestinians in any other context than in opposition to Israel.

Tom Curtis seems not to grasp the difference between an attack on a people and an attack on a WORD, but Kenmeer knows the difference very well, and twists my words as an excuse to smear me.


Persons in the KKK may have great personal accomplishments; one of them became Supreme Court justice. But that one that became a Supreme Court justice was terribly embarrassed that he'd once signed his name on a KKK roster, and went on to reject anything the KKK had ever done, so it would be completely dishonest to attribute "Supreme Court Justice" as a KKK accomplishment. As an organization, the KKK's only accomplishments have to do with terror, murder, and graft. Does that mean that I'm calling for all members of the KKK to be exterminated? [DOH] I hate KM's little intellectual emulation of of a suicide bomber, pretending to be a dolt in order to push someone else over the edge.

[ September 16, 2006, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"I simply meant that not all of our country's major accomplishments involve some form of homicide or justification thereof."

Just thought I'd quote that to let its brutal dismissal speak for itself.

You think that it's "brutal" of me to dismiss suicide bombs and public executions as cultural acheivement?

You know very well that it's not the Palestinians that I'm attacking here. I don't think that I overestimate your intelligence. If the Palestinians are a people united by anything other than hate of Jews, then they will have other accomplishments. If Palestinians have nothing other than hate to unify them, then we should probably think of them as Jordanians or Egyptians or Gazans, etc., because on that level, they *do* have accomplishments and unifying principles other than hatred and opposition.


quote:
Never mind that nations are born of war.
Why never mind that? But this "birth" has been failing since 1910. I strongly supported the idea of Palestinian nationhood until the election of Hamas. Now I'm thinking we should look to ways to saving the people rather than preserving one so-called nation.


quote:
The statement as written is worthy of Mein Kampf. It deploys the kind of irrational defamation used against the Jews by Hitler, according to whom all their accomplishments were based on verminous impulses and depravity.
That sort of analogy is worthy of Herr Goebbels, who advised that when you have no coherent argument, just throw accusation after accusation until your opponent's nerves collapse. I've said nothing against individual persons. Individual Palestinians *have* accomplished a great deal, and there, it is a great accomplishment to survive amid psychotic terrorists, corrupt leaders, Israeli counter-attacks, and an international community of do-gooders who are more interested in saving your corrupt government than saving the downtrodden people.
quote:
edited to add that "The statement as written" refers to its contextual reference to Palestine.
You equivocate. I'm criticizing the united idea of Palestine, and you pretend that I've said that all people that you label Palestinians are inherently worthless.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"You know very well that it's not the Palestinians that I'm attacking here. I don't think that I overestimate your intelligence. If the Palestinians are a people united by anything other than hate of Jews, then they will have other accomplishments. If Palestinians have nothing other than hate to unify them, then we should probably think of them as Jordanians or Egyptians or Gazans, etc., because on that level, they *do* have accomplishments and unifying principles other than hatred and opposition."

So: it isn't the Palestinians you're attacking here... but it is the Palestinians you're attacking here. Palestinians, you imply, are united in a national sense only by their hatred of Jews, because *some* of them voted for Hamas.

"You equivocate. I'm criticizing the united idea of Palestine, and you pretend that I've said that all people that you label Palestinians are inherently worthless."

Nay. You intrude (false) words in my mouth. I said Palestine, not Palestinians, a people who, you assert, have no national identity but hatred. Hitler demonized jews, a people who, at the time, were united, or possessed a national sense, if one prefers, by nothing more than their Jewishness.

Palestine is nothing if not Palestinians, just as Israel is nothing if not Jews.

Repete:

"If the Palestinians are a people united by anything other than hate of Jews, then they will have other accomplishments."

Would you care to clarify this statement? Or am I intruding words into your mouth by assuming that accomplishments means accomplishments, and not a narrow range of political processes that some Palestinians involve themselves with?

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kenmeer livermaile
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'Never mind that war...' is an apophasis, Pete.

Meanwhile, I reassert my impression of Palestine's main accomplishment as a nation: survival. Yes, this survival includes surviving the justly-earned retribution of an egregious and misguided attack on Israel in '47/'48. But it also includes surviving decades of a calculated program of ghettoization of Palestinians by Israel.

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Pete at Home
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"I said Palestine, not Palestinians, a people who, you assert, have no national identity but hatred."

I didn't say that either. I asked you to show me evidence that they were united by something else. I'm not making conclusions; I'm asking questions. I haven't made my mind up about Palestine; I'm questioning what I used to take as a given, i.e. Palestinian nationhood. Some pseudointellectual Americans use the term "questioning" to mean that someone has formed conclusions against the "questioned" topic. You're not a pseuedointellectual; you're made out of the same stuff that I am, and you know the difference between a question and a conclusion. Kindly stop pretending to be a dolt.

Sad thing here is that Kenmeer and Tom C seem to assume that Palestine has no accomplishments other than "survival" and creative homicide, and when I deny the worth of the latter, accuse me of hate speech or intent to genocide. I wish Moodi was here because I bet he could answer my question and show real cultural achievements.

I've just thought of one possible Palestinian accomplishment. Preserving the ancient historical and holy sites, despite grinding poverty, war, oppression, and terror, is a major cultural accomplishment. (I noticed the same thing in Poland when I visited. They'd managed to save as much of their cultural sites as they could despite Nazi and Soviet occupation, and both the Nazis and the Soviets were intent on cultural genocide, targeting the educated for their camps, using medeival castles to store explosives during war, etc.) If that's something that people do because they see themselves as Palestinians, then that would be a noteworthy Palestinian accomplishment, to say the least.

I do hope that someone can make a better defense of Palestine as a nation than Tom Curtis and Kenmeer, who seem to think that the best defense is a personal attack. I do not know whether Palestine should be considered a Nation; I suspect that it should, but I no longer take it for a given. But what I *know*, is that Tom C and Kenmeer have given us only the most repugnant and inane arguments for Palestine's nationhood. "Nations are born of war," but not all wars produce nations. "Survival is an accomplishment," but not always the accomplishment of the survivor.

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Pete at Home
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Kenmeer puts words in my mouth again.
quote:
" I said Palestine, not Palestinians, a people who, you assert, have no national identity but hatred."
You misrepresent me. I never said that the people have no national identity but hatred. They have national identity as Arabs. Many read their Koran and find a broader national identity as Muslims. Still others may consider themselves Jordanians or Egyptians. Finally, people living in Gaza have a unifying relationship based on geography. Lots of national identities there, KM, based on stuff other than hatred.

Your word "assert" is also a misrepresentation. I asked whether the Palestinian national identity was based on anything other than hatred. I asked for evidence that it was otherwise. That's not a conclusion.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Aw crap, Pete. It's not a matter of me putting words in your mouth; it's a matter of you emitting conflictiong words from your own at the same time.

But no worries, mate. 's same old same old. 'twas ever thus with thou.

A quick reply:

"They have national identity as Arabs. Many read their Koran and find a broader national identity as Muslims."

Arab is not a naion. Islam is a religion, not a nation, although at times it has, just like Xtiandom, aspred to be an empire. If I were to offer these notions as national identity to you, I believe you would dismiss them out of hand.

Likewise the geographical notions or affiliations with other nations. Geography is some borders, not nations, are made of. Borders, in turn, are things nations fight over. Jordan and Egypt have, for example, enjoyed such conflicts in their history.
These are straw men which, were I to erect therm as true soldiers, you would denounce on sight.

You speak double-talk, senor.

BY the way, Pete, attacking your duplicity and tendency to ad hominemisms is something that the likes of Tom and I don't do in defense of Palestine; it's something we do in defense of rhetorical hygiene and discursive rogir. It happens on virtualy every thread you engage.

A note: I go for a few days. A cabin in the woods calls. (Raw, no water or power. Just a wood stove, bunks, and a funky-ass table.)

Y'all say bad things about me while I'm gone, because God, you know, hates a liar [Wink]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Momentary last hurrah:

We of Ornery are shrewd enough to recognise an assertion presented as a rhetorical question.

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Pete at Home
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"Islam is a religion"

I've yet to meet a Muslim that said that Islam was a religion and nothing more than a religion. Sharia is religious law and secular law. Pan-Islam and Pan-Arabia are aspiring nations, like Palestine.

As the Ornery wise man said, when not pretending to be the fool, "Nations are born of war."

The last 100 years has seen war, violence, and terror on behalf of persons calling for:
1. Palestine Nationhood.
2. Pan-Arab Nationhood.
3. Pan-Islamic Nationhood.

You know very well that the Pan-Islamists have as a group, committed more violence, more acts of war and terror in their cause than Palistinians have in theirs. They also have considerable non-violent cultural achievements. I hope they fail to install their nation, since it would be the death knell of freedom for hundreds of millions of people, and the dawn of a terrible war. But all of the elements of nationhood is there; it's just a question of whether these nations will be installed, displacing others.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
We of Ornery are shrewd enough to recognise an assertion presented as a rhetorical question.

OK, KM. You pretend, and you have lots of fun making false insinuations, but in my experience, you don't outright lie. Let's see if your little honesty button still works:

1. Do you honestly believe that I believe that Palestinians individually have no value and no culture, and that all they do is murder?

A. Yes
B. No
C. Wiggle, evade, prevaricate, change the subject, etc.
D. Dissapear.

2. Do you honestly believe that I meant to say that Palestinians individually have no value and no culture, and that all they do is murder?
A. Yes
B. No
C. Wiggle, evade, prevaricate, change the subject, etc.
D. Dissapear.

[ September 16, 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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Jesse
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D. Dissapear.

D. Dissapear.

Absolutely bogus, Pete.

Real life comes first. I've stood up for you in the past when you've been accused of "running from an argument" simply because you stopped posting for a while. I've been accused of the same thing.

Not cool.

Ev, in 2,500 years, when Palestinians have maintained a sizable population in Israel for the entire period and have never renounced their claims, do you think they should be allowed to establish a State there?

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Everard
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"Ev, in 2,500 years, when Palestinians have maintained a sizable population in Israel for the entire period and have never renounced their claims, do you think they should be allowed to establish a State there?"

As it stands, what you're written is not analogous to my position, which is that the means of establishing a state was legitimate, and that israel made sense as a location for jews to try to establish a state. It was a legitimate location to try to establish a state because its our ancestral homeland. We shouldn't have been "allowed" to establish a state if we'd never put in the ethical effort, no matter where the location. But jews did put in the ethical effort, did build a state from almost literally nothing, and did do it on land that was our ancestral homeland.

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Tom Curtis
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Pete:

quote:
I'm not arguing that they have no cultural achievements. I've simply asked you to give me examples of Palestinian cultural achievements, since I don't know any. The fact that you've responded by attacking me and making ludicrous accusations does not prove that the Palestinians have no cultural achievements. It just shows that you're too vain to admit you don't know something and want to pick a fight to cover up the fact. Kindly do not butt in with false and foolish inferences while I ask persons more informed than you for evidence of Palestinian cultural accomplishments.
What Pete has excised from his responce, as apparently from his memory, it the two lists of cultural achievements by Palestinians I posted. Asked for cultural achievements of Palestinians, I provide examples of cultural achievements by Palestinians which are promptly ignored, and instead of responding to the facts that Pete doubted existed, he responds by a false attack against me and Kenmeer.

At this stage I withdraw from the discussion. Pete is obviously mired in hatred of Palestinians; and has no inclination to follow any evidence that will draw him from it.

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canadian
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I'm game

1. mu
2. mu


--

We only have our perceptions upon which to rely.

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Tom Curtis
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Ev:

quote:
Thats not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that the former also had many ill practices. Its really difficult to find much information about the first few palestinian national congresses on the web so I'm afraid I won't be able to provide links, but the two major points I wished to make in the preceeding post are

1) The first several palestinian national congresses also endorsed throwing all the jews out of palestine.

I agree it is hard to get information on the first PNC on the web. I have certainly tried. However, I would be surprised if their claims were much different from the General Syrian Congress, whose resolutions I give below:

quote:
The report referenced the resolutions that had come from the General Syrian Congress which had convened in July of 1919. These resolutions were as follows:

"1. We ask absolutely complete political independence for Syria within these boundaries. The
Taurus System on the North; Rafeh and a line running from Al-Juf to the south of the Syrian
and the Mejazian line to Akaba on the south; the Euphrates and Khabur Rivers and a line
extending east of Abu Kamal to the east of Al-Juf on the east; and the Mediterranean on the
west

2. We ask that the Government of this Syrian country should be a democratic civil
constitutional Monarchy on broad decentralization principles, safeguarding the rights of
minorities, and that the King be the Emir Feisal who carried on a glorious struggle in the cause
of our liberation and merited our full confidence and entire reliance.

3 Considering the fact that the Arabs inhabiting the Syrian area are not naturally less gifted
than other more advanced races and that; they are by no means less developed than the
Bulgarians, Serbians, Greeks, and Roumanians at the beginning of their independence, we
protest against Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations, placing us among the
nations in their middle stage of development which stand in need of a mandatory power.

4. In the event of the rejection by the Peace Conference of this just protest for certain
considerations that we may not understand, we, relying on the declarations of President Wilson
that his object in waging war was to put an end to the ambition of conquest and colonization, can
only regard the mandate mentioned in the Covenant of the League of Nations as equivalent to the
rendering of economical and technical assistance that does not prejudice our complete
independence. And desiring that our country should not fall a prey to colonization and believing
that the American Nation is farthest from any thought of colonization and has no political
ambition in our country, we will seek the technical and economic assistance from the United
States of America, provided that such assistance does not exceed twenty years.

5. In the event of America not finding herself in a position to accept our desire for assistance
we will seek this assistance from Great Britain, also provided that such assistance does not
infringe the complete independence and unity of our country, and that the duration of such
assistance does not exceed that mentioned in the previous article.

6. We do not acknowledge any right claimed by the French Government in any part whatever of
our Syrian country and refuse that she should assist us or have a hand in our country under any
circumstances and in any place.

7. We oppose the pretentions of the Zionists to create a Jewish commonwealth in the southern
part of Syria, known as Palestine, and oppose Zionist migration to any part of our country; for
we do not acknowledge their title, but consider them a grave peril to our people from the
national, economical, and political points of view. Our Jewish compatriots shall enjoy our common
rights and assume the common responsibilities.


8. We ask that there should be no separation of the southern part of Syria, known as Palestine, nor
of the littoral western zone which includes Lebanon, from the Syrian country. We desire that the
unity of the country should be guaranteed against partition under whatever circumstances.

9. We ask complete independence for emancipated Mesopotamia and that there should be no
economical barriers between the two countries.

10. The fundamental principles laid down by President Wilson in condemnation of secret treaties
impel us to protest most emphatically against any treaty that stipulates the partition of our
Syrian country and against any private engagement aiming at the establishment of Zionism in the
southern part of Syria, therefore we ask the complete annulment of these conventions and
agreements.
"

http://www.atsnn.com/article/45716.html

Resolution (7) calls for no Jewish commonwealth in Palestine, and no further zionist immigration; but acknowledges a desire for the full citizen of their Jewish compatriots (ie, Jews resident in Palestine, Lebanon, Syria and Jordan prior to 1880, and their descendants). It does not say, but I presume that their intention that zionist immigrants should be deported (which was the official position in 1964 as well).

Is this a correct summary of the demands of the first PNC?

If it was, your claim that "Genocide man, genocide. It was part of the plan." is a gross and offensive mischaracterisation.

In 1922, there were around 84,000 Jews in Palestine, around a third of which had lived there pre-1880 (or their ancestors had). So, presuming my assumption is correct, the PNC was calling for the deportation of around 50,000 jews. That number may not be deportable without their cooperation without significant violence, possibly even atrocities - but to call it genocide is a radical (and offensive) overstatement.

I think this is quite different from the situation in 1948, where because the expected deportation was of 500,000 people, to be carried out in the midst of war, with their backs to the sea, genocide was the almost inevitable conclusion of Arab success. But because the circumstances were different, you ought not to read your responce to the latter situation into the former situation.

What is more important, if I am correct in my assumptions, the plan was not a plan of violence per se. It may have turned violent in the excecution given the determined resistance of the Zionist immigrants, in fact probably would have. But that is not a problem that can be sheeted home solely to the Palestinians. Had their demands been granted, and had violence arisen in the deportation, then it may have been their fault, or the Jews, or some combination - but that is not something that should be prejudged. (You quite reasonably ask for subtlety in understanding how 500,000 Palestinian refugees could be deported from Israel in 1948; asking that we do not simply sheet the blame home to Israel. You are quite correct to do so, but by the same token, we must allow Palestinians the benefit of the doubt as to the methods of a deportation which has never happened.

Finally, it is quite possible that the Palestinians, and the Syrians in general would have accepted a compromise in which there was one, unified democratic Syrian state in which all current Jewish citizens were full residents. Had they done so, there would have been an end to mass Jewish immigration, and the Jews may have become second class citizens, but their position would still have been much better than (for example) that of the blacks of South Africa at the same time. But we don't call what happened to the South African blacks genocide, and we should not call what happened would have happened to the Jews on this scenario genocide either.

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Everard
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Your whole post is based on the assumption that the General Syrian Congress had similar aims as the palestinian national congress. I'll try hard to find the documentation that I've read on this, but it was 4 years ago, and earlier this summer you may remember a post of mine in which I said I lost my hard drive. I don't have the information backed up, so I can only give you my conclusions, since the information I want to show you, so far as I can tell, is not on the web, but my position is based on the conclusion that the palestinian national congress was endorsing genocide of the jewish population as early as 1920, largely under the influence of husseini (whose brother (son?)
the palestinian delegation to the pan-arabic conference in 1919 elected king. Hopefully, we do not have to go into a biography of mufti husseini and his family.

Aside from all that, Syrian had not exactly been un-murderous in their approach to jews in the 19th century. Perhaps the most famous blood libel is the Damascus Blood Libel of 1940. The protection jews had in syria in the 19th century, and early 20th century, was largely due to turkish influence, as the ottoman empire worked to prevent the violence against jews that the arab syrians were trying to perpetrate. During the 1920's, literally hundreds of jews were murdered, and shops and homes burned, throughout syria. Syrian jews, remember, had been there at LEAST since 70 C.E, so whatever claims the general syrian congress was making, they certainly weren't acting on, in regard to jews in syria.

During the late 20's and early 30's, the syrian jews backed the arab nationalists, palestinians and syrians, and were repaid for that support with massacres and riots in the mid 30's. ALL syrian jews were accused of being zionist, and slaughtered for it.

The trend continued throughout the 30's and into the 40's and fifties. Since the establishment of Israel, conditions for jews in syria have been among the worst conditions in the world. Fortunately, there are only a few jews left there, now, since most managed to flee in the 40's, but since 1949, jews have fewer rights in syria then I would in a maximum security prison in western europe.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Tom Curtis:
Pete:

quote:
I'm not arguing that they have no cultural achievements. I've simply asked you to give me examples of Palestinian cultural achievements, since I don't know any. The fact that you've responded by attacking me and making ludicrous accusations does not prove that the Palestinians have no cultural achievements. It just shows that you're too vain to admit you don't know something and want to pick a fight to cover up the fact. Kindly do not butt in with false and foolish inferences while I ask persons more informed than you for evidence of Palestinian cultural accomplishments.
What Pete has excised from his responce, as apparently from his memory, it the two lists of cultural achievements by Palestinians I posted. Asked for cultural achievements of Palestinians, I provide examples of cultural achievements by Palestinians which are promptly ignored
Tom is again misrepresenting what I said. I did not ignore them. I promptly thanked Tom for his attempt to provide examples and asked if he had any examples that were relevant to my question. I've already above distinguished between the accomplishments of individuals and those of nations. Tom C has resorted to equivocation again, by pretending that I'm slurring individuals when I critique the idea of a nation. Then he does it yet again by trying to pass off individual accomplishments as national accomplishments.

Tell me, Tom -- which book is more commonly studied in Palestinian schools? That book by the accomplished Palestinian writer you spoke of? Or the arab translation of "Protocols of the Elders of Zion?"

And do stop crying about the "attacks." Everyone can see on this thread that it was you that started in with personal attacks, and vulture-man that joined in. If my aim is better, then you should not have started it. It's like those Palestinian thugs that throw rocks at Israeli soldiers that carry machine guns. Dude, if you're going to play David and Goliath, you'd better make sure that God is on your side.

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Pete at Home
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quote:
Originally posted by Jesse:
D. Dissapear.

D. Dissapear.

Absolutely bogus, Pete.

Real life comes first. I've stood up for you in the past when you've been accused of "running from an argument" simply because you stopped posting for a while. I've been accused of the same thing.

Not cool.

It wasn't an argument, Jesse. He derailed my thread with personal attacks, then calls me a liar as a parting gesture, and then cuts and run like chickensh!t over teflon. That is not cool.

Show me anything that KM said to me on this page that warrants me treating him like I treat you? Kenmee started in by comparing me to Hitler. I refuse to believe that you've become hypocritically fastidious, so I'll assume that you did not bother to read what I was responding to.

[ September 16, 2006, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: Pete at Home ]

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quote:
I've stood up for you in the past when you've been accused of "running from an argument" simply because you stopped posting for a while. I've been accused of the same thing.
You're talking about argument. Kenmeer here on the other hand was flinging feces. He fouled the thread, attacked me personally, and then ran. No rules of politeness apply to that kind of behavior. Furthermore, I think he's prevaricating a bit about having to leave. The last accusation and then running was too convenient. He's sitting and reading this, I warrant.

That's quite different from someone taking a break from an actual argument.

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