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Author Topic: Wouldn't it be Great if there really was a God?
KnightEnder
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I was watching the World Poker Championship and they did a peice on the best player, Daniel Negraneau, and how he went to see a child that had been severely burnt (like the Mask, but worse), when his Mom's Suburban got side-swiped on the way home from his school and the gas tank he was sitting above exploded. I cried so hard I couldn't talk. [Crying] Daniel was my favorite before, now he is beyond words. He said; "I get more out of spending time with him, than he does with me."

The kid was a baseball player before the 'accident'. While confined to a hospital bed he and his father watched a lot of poker and Daniel became his favorite player.

Wouldn't it be great if there really was a Divine being that didn't get involved in the little stuff, but stopped the atrocities like that? [Smile]

Not to derail my own thread but I'm fairly certain that if they didn't care so much about money; Ford could make a gas tank that wouldn't explode. [Mad]

KE

[ September 19, 2006, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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rightleft22
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Thank God for unanswered prayers, we know not what we ask...
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KnightEnder
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Bull****.
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KnightEnder
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You look at that burnt child and dead baby and tell his parents that. If they don't hit you I will. What a sanctimonious load of crap.

KE

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Not to derail my own thread but I'm fairly certain that if they didn't care so much about money; Ford could make a gas tank that wouldn't explode. [Mad]

I'm sure they could, although, in this case you'll have to talk to the folks at Chevrolet.

I'm not really sure if it would be a good thing or not to have a divine entity. I'm sure we'll never have to worry about that problem though [Smile]

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KnightEnder
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Chevy? Sorry, I must have been mistaken.

And as you say; the point is still valid.

Not sure if it wouldn't be a good thing for there to be a force that didn't let kids burn alive? Don't give me the slippery slope. A kind and benevolent force in the world, even if it only protected children, would be a...a...a...Godsend.

KE

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MattP
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That's all well and good for us unbelievers, but their "greater good" and "mysterious ways" stuff is internally consistant and generally not open to debate.

Maybe that child would have been the next Hitler. Of course that begs the question why the fist Hitler didn't get taken out? To force the Jews to scatter and reassemble in the mideast to prepare for the first/second coming of Christ? My head is spinning...

They can't all be right. The problem is if anyone of them are, then most of the others may be in pretty big trouble. (depends on who's right)

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KnightEnder
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How about a competent God who made people so they weren't chemically or genetically unbalanced and disposed to acts such as murder, rape, genocide, child abuse, etc. And don't give me free-will. We are slaves to the chemicals and make up of our brains and if you belive the zealots God made us this way. He could have just as easy made us without the defecets. And it has nothing to do with free-will. Save every child from a horrible death or pain and disfigurement and I'll gladly suffer Hitler. WE DO ANYWAY! So what is your point?

Maybe you have to have children to get it? Or a heart? Or soul, if you're religous?

People that can't decide whether a force that would protect children from horrible lives of pain of death seriouls need to check their's, whatever they call it.

KE

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Chevy? Sorry, I must have been mistaken.

And as you say; the point is still valid.

Not sure if it wouldn't be a good thing for there to be a force that didn't let kids burn alive? Don't give me the slippery slope. A kind and benevolent force in the world, even if it only protected children, would be a...a...a...Godsend.

KE

Well I was just thinking there could be a number of rammifications if kids were rendered immune to fire. The knowledge of this fact could lead to all sorts of terrible exploits.
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KnightEnder
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Stacy makes the excellent point, when I voiced my dismay and the lack of compassion here, that there probably wouldn't be as many Hitlers, aka seriously ****ed-up people if a force kept them from being abused and hurt as children, thus warping them for life.

What the Hell is wrong with you people? You are that in love with the Status Quo that you can't even admit the world could be better? That God could do more. Without violating free will. Not an issue when Matt, the child, was being burned alive. And I'm sure God in his infinite wisdom could figure a way to save children pain and suffering and still maintain our precious free will. Or is our CHOOSING HIM, more important to him than the suffering horrors that happen every day to children around the world. If so he is beneath contempt. If he could do something to stop these events and doesn't then **** HIM!

Why would anyone want to spend an eternity with such a power mad egotist? I'll gladly go to Hell. The further away from the monster y'all WORSHIP the better.

KE

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MattP
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quote:
So what is your point?
My point is that the religious have a philosophical position which is unassailable by logic for the simple reason that states the existence of supernatural forces as axiomatic. You can say they're full of sh*t, but that doesn't change anything.

quote:
Maybe you have to have children to get it? Or a heart? Or soul, if you're religous?
I've got six kids and I definitely get it. (soul not determined and/or undeterminable) I'm on your side. I'm just not so angry about it (any more).
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rightleft22
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quote:
You look at that burnt child and dead baby and tell his parents that.
of course not!

I was referring to your dream/prayer of a world without pain.

It seem's to me we are defined more by our pain then by our pleasure

[ September 19, 2006, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: rightleft22 ]

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KnightEnder
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Yeah, Linus, I see where you were going, that is why I said don't give me the slippery slope. It just doesn't apply here.

Can't let kids strap bombs to themselves if God won't let the bombs explode.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Sorry, righty. But not this kind of pain. Not to children. Not to babies.
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rightleft22
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I hear you; when children hurt it breaks the heart… does it become less difficult to witness when the child becomes an adult? Why?

Without pain could we grow? The leper who doesn’t feel pain withers away, is he thankful that he can’t feel it?

Is it a matter of free will or is pain the price of being conscious?

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KnightEnder
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WARNING! PASSIONATE SUBJECT FOR ME! (Should have wrote that in the first post. And below is why. Besides the natural humanity I have that makes me abhor the suffering of fellow human beings, especially children.)

Those of you who have been here a while know my youngest was crushed "in church" (though that is not why I hate religion, and I don't blame that church) WWEN HE WAS THREE YEARS OLD.

His skull was cracked in five places, his right orbital stucture was broken, as was his nose, realesing air into his brain giving him menengitis, and he cut the temporal lobe of his brain.

I held him down, his eyes were swolling shut, while they stuck IV after IV in him (his small veins kept burstin because he was only three.) he couldn't see and he kept screaming "Daddy! Daddy! They're hurting the baby!" And all I could say was I'm here son and it's to make you better. I kicked Stacy out of the room and held him down myself. Every time I think of that I want to put a gun to my head and end the pain that resides in my heart. And if things don't change, someday when they don't need me anymore, if the pain is still this great I will opt out. The pain is too much. I can't get his screaming and begging me to help him out of my head. He was three for God's sake. And in Church. This shouldn't have happened to him. Nothing like this should happen to any child, EVER!

I am thankful every day that he is alive. Thank the surgeons and there skill when they told us that he probably wouldn't survivel. And every day that he survived. And I treasure every day I have with him.

Nothing like this should happen to any child, EVER!

And if there is a God that could prevent it and didn't, he isn't worth spit. And if I ever meet him I will do my utmost to destroy him. I realize that is impossible but I swear I will try. Just as I would if a man stood by and did nothing while my son was being crushed, or hurt in any way and did nothing.

I'll post the before during and after pics, now that he is old enough. I warn you the during are hard to look at. He was three, thank goodness he doesn't remember much. I and his mother are haunted by it. We did everything right and he almost died anyway, sufferedn horrible pain, and was scarred.

KE

[ September 19, 2006, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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MattP
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KE,

Reading your son's story has brought tears to my eyes. That's a bit awkard since I'm sitting in my cube at a tech company.

What happened to your son is terrible and I would also be furious at anyone that tried to console me with religious gestures.

To me it's all a big waste of time, but little more. I'm not convinced that religion is uniquely responsible for the evil in the world when so many other factors of humanity may be equally explanatory. But that conversation is already happening in another thread.

Matt

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KnightEnder
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And yes Righty. Adults can handle pain to themselves. Childern are precious and virtually defenseless and clueless about the dangers of the world. And there is only so much parents can do to protect them. What possible harm could come of children not getting cancer? Not being born crack addicted. Hitler? We already have Hitler and worse. At least in my version of the world Hitler would have been prevented from murderng children, and Mengalei would have been prevented from experimenting and torturing them. Show me the counter argument so I can shred it with love and compassion. You know; the stuff Jesue Christ was about.

Which is one of the reasons Pete, a bitter enemy for a long while (you think Ev was bad, I started a thread called "Pete is a Liar" never was even warned), and I have become such good friends. I actually feel his pain. And it's more than a father should have to bear. His love for his family transcends our disagreements and his faults and mine. We are brothers in our love for our children, and all children.

KE

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KnightEnder
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Matt, at the time I was playing basketball for a church team (as I've stated numerously my best friend/brother was devoutly religious and talked me into trying it. He was such a good man and I wanted to be like him so I tried hard to believe. This was during this time.)

The people of that church, 60 of them, got out of their beds and came to that hospital to pray for Jake and be with us when we need them. Religion can be great. People can be great. And on my less militant days I think/if not believe, that all that "prayer" (by them, and churches around the country, hundreds) even if it was just positive vibes being sent out into the world helped to save Jake.

But that doesn't change the fact that if should never happen to any child, ever.

KE

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MattP
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No argument there.
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canadian
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But there isn't a white man in white robes with a white beard floating around in the sky, so it does happen.
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rightleft22
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I am so sorry for the pain you and your child experienced.

I understand now that this is personal to you, so I apologise if my comments came off as crass. If God exists and in the end we all get to understand the big picture, the ‘whys,’ and we can all accept them great but if there is no reason to the ‘whys’ then I will join you.

I wasn’t so much interested in the question of does God exist and or defending God but in the idea of a world without pain if only for All the children. As a purely academic exercise

[ September 19, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: rightleft22 ]

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KnightEnder
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Matt, don't want to make you cry more, but the best part of the story was this.

We didn't know if after the surgeries if he would be brain damaged or what.

But Jake and I had this thing when he was two and three, before the accident. I would say; "I love my little man." and he would reply "I love my big man." and then I would say "Sweetest Jake I've ever seen." and he would reply; "Sweetest Daddy I've ever seen."

One day after his thrid surgery after he hadn't talked for weeks other than "It hurts and Daddy make them stop!", his eyes had been swollen shut for two weeks ever since the accident, I was walking the halls of the hospital with him asleep unconscious on my shoulder and whispering to him over and over again how I loved him, that he was going to be okay, and our special saying. Hoping/praying he (my Jacob, my son) was still in there. Somewhere inside that damaged brain.

For the hundreth time I whispered; "I love my little man." and he replied in a hoarse whisper; "I love my big man." Shocked I finished; "Sweetest Jake I've ever seen." and he returend; "Sweetest Daddy I've ever seen." I cried harder than I ever had in my life. My little boy was still in there. He was still him. I can't tell you how much those five words meant to me. The most important words ever spoken, IMHO.

If you've got kids; cherish them. I know it's hard to do all the time. But try. There's only so much time

Jake is thirteen now and we still say our little ritual saying to each other. And it still warms my heart every time I hear him say it.

(Also, at the time I would have been happy to have him alive blind, which was a possibility, or brain damaged or whatever, as long as he was alive.)

KE

[ September 19, 2006, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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MattP
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I believe it's largely because of horrible things that happen to people that many turn to religion. What parent wouldn't want to believe that, though their child was terribly injured or killed, that they'd get to spend eternity together in heaven?

The idea of losing one of my children is so horrific to me that I can't say I wouldn't make a desperate grasp for religion if one of them was taken from me.

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MattP
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quote:
Matt, don't want to make you cry more, but the best part of the story was this.
[Mad] Now cut that out! [Wink]

[ September 19, 2006, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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LinuxFreakus
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
Yeah, Linus, I see where you were going, that is why I said don't give me the slippery slope. It just doesn't apply here.

Can't let kids strap bombs to themselves if God won't let the bombs explode.

KE

There is always a slippery slope!
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KnightEnder
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Matt, I understand that hope. I have it too. But the pain on Earth shouldn't be necessary if a kind caring God exists. Therefore he doesn't exist, or he isn't kind. He is at best indifferent, and at worst sadistic.

KE

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Colin JM0397
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This is not to brush aside the horrors of life, but - and I know you didn't say this KE, but it kind of seems like the assumption:
If there was a God, he/she/it wouldn't let these things happen, ergo, there is no God.

I disagree.

God's number one gift to mankind, IMO, is our free will. SH*tty things happen to good and helpless people because of the free will of others, and sometimes just by accident of being in the wrong place - such as an act of nature.

However, were God to jump in to stop things, it would violate our free will and the fundamental nature of what mankind is to begin with.

I can look at all the crap and say that's just as much evidence that God does exist as an atheist might say is evidence that he/she/it doesn't.

To use an analogy, I could lock my kid up in his room and give him all he needs to survive and he'll be quite safe from the free will of others, but would that really be living?

The old saying, if you love something, you have to let it go comes to mind...

And maybe God does help out, not to stop the free will, but to give us a little assistance when we need it or an innocent disserves it.

About 6 years ago I was driving on the high way when a jackass in a Corvette blew by me, zipping in and out of lanes on the 4-lane highway. It was early evening, so there were a fair number of cars on the road. About 100 m in front of me, he clipped the front bumper of a Yukon SUV with his rear bumper. The lady driving the SUV panicked and cut hard on her steering wheel. The SUV went ass over nose like I’d never believe possible for that large of a vehicle if I hadn’t see it. The ‘vette spun off the road, and the SUV slid along on the roof for probably several 100 m. I was close enough that I drove through the still falling glass… I don’t remember seeing anyone in the road.
I pulled over, and immediately got on the cell phone to 911, and was walking back to the SUV. I saw someone laying in the road – obviously thrown from the SUV, and told the 911 operator they probably had a fatality on their hands - thrown out from an overturned car onto a crowded road at 60-some mph…
I got closer and could tell it was a young girl of about 10-12 judging by her size.
I don’t recall why I didn’t check on her, but I think there were already too many people hovering around and I don’t have much first aid knowledge. There was a cop heading the other way that saw it or came by within a minute or so…
I stayed long enough to fill out a witness report and see the ambulance take the girl away. I heard from others there she was still alive, but that’s all I knew. A few weeks later, the mother – the driver of the SUV – called to thank me for stopping and filling out the report, that it would help a lot if they had to go to trial (got my name from the police report).
I asked how her daughter was doing, she said she spent a few days in the hospital, a few at home, and was okay after about a week. Nothing broken, no internal injuries, just road rash and beat up pretty bad.

I don’t remember seeing anyone in the road – remember I drove right through the falling glass and through the path the SUV took when turned over… Things happen so fast, I might have just not seen her…
However, 60-some mph, thrown into a crowded highway, and just minor injuries.

I’ll never believe that it was just luck on her part she wasn’t killed.

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Mormegil
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For some interesting philosophy on suffering and free will, read OSC's "The Worthing Saga."

As far as children suffering, if there is a God, then the children that die leave this world of suffering and go to heaven where they are comforted for eternity, making the suffering of this world but a moment in duration.

If there is a God, then when an evil man hurts a child, he is held accountable and the child is comforted.

If there is no God, then children simply suffer and that's it. Then evil men can hurt or kill children and only get whatever punishment we can mete out ourselves.

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MattP
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quote:
I’ll never believe that it was just luck on her part she wasn’t killed.
And what about the 41,820 other people that weren't so smiled upon that year?

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSFAnn/TSF2000.pdf

Is it that hard to conceive of what accident of physics might spare an a person in an individual crash? I can think of a few scenarios off the top of my head. It's amazing and wonderful that she survived, but proof of divine intervention?

[ September 19, 2006, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: MattP ]

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rightleft22
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In this world where God intervenes directly does He do so only for some children or all children?
If only some children are protected from pain what would the criteria be for choosing when to intervene and when not to --“Good” parents and or children who follow all the rules, economics, geography???

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MattP
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quote:
In this world where God intervenes directly does He do so only for some children or all children?
Only some, apparently. We still have bad things happening to kids, so unless He's CAUSING the bad things to happen, then He's allowing them to happen.

quote:
If only some children are protected from pain what would the criteria be for choosing when to intervene and when not to
We don't get an answer to that question until we meet him, sorry.

quote:
“Good” parents and or children who follow all the rules, economics, geography???
Based on studies of relative health and mortality rates, He appears to favor middle-class and wealthier white people in developed nations.
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rightleft22
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In a world where God protects all children from pain but not adults how would we feel when we crossed the dividing line? God clearly demonstrating his power but then stops protecting…

Would this be reflective of current societal thinking?

Protect protect protect and then your on your no longer 'special'.

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MattP
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To be fair, I think most religious folks would say that He protects everyone, but there is certainly a sense that he offers more protection to children. I guess this is probably because we feel children need more protection.

This is codified somewhat in the doctrine of the LDS church. Children under the 'age of accountability' (eight) are incapable of sinning. After that, they become responsible for their actions and must start repenting of their sins.

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canadian
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their many, many sins...
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kenmeer livermaile
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You always wuz a bad 'un, can. On your knees, boy. Say you're sorry. Louder. Louder!

There. Don't you feel better!

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Tom Curtis
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jm0397:

quote:
However, were God to jump in to stop things, it would violate our free will and the fundamental nature of what mankind is to begin with.
Bull****! Thousands of children are in accidents every day, and do not have horrible, life threatening, deforming injuries. How would it have interfered with "free will" had KE's son only been lightly injured as happens all the time? Or if the gas tank in the first story merely drained when split, and not exploded? Was the free will of the mother of the child thrown from the car interferred with because she was not horribly injurred, or killed?

IMO, Christianity is the only religion which could possibly be true, because only in Christianity can God look us in the eye and say I know what your suffering was like, and there was a reason. But the idea that any reason we can concoct is sufficient is nonsense.

At it happens, there is no God, and KE is right, that is a tragedy - so it falls to us to do for each other what a God would have done for us.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Mebbe God just managed to make something bigger than he knows hot to manage? Miracles happen, even in the form of mishaps.
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Tom Curtis
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Mormegil:

quote:
As far as children suffering, if there is a God, then the children that die leave this world of suffering and go to heaven where they are comforted for eternity, making the suffering of this world but a moment in duration.
Well, according to the Catholics, if they have not been baptised in a church with Apostolic Succession, they go straight to hell. I guess that would make the suffering of this world just moments duration as well.
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MattP
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Yeah, well the obviously the Catholics have it wrong and those "kids go to heaven" people got it right. Because... well, because they said so and it's a much more appealing idea to me.
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