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Richard Dey
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I rank Shostakovich amongst the top 10 of 20th-century composers (in 10th position), notably for his quartets ... but there are those who rank him in 1st place!

Yesterday was DS's 100th birthday -- an orgy of apologetic suggesting that, despite his being a member of the Supreme Soviet, he wasn't a communist at all and fought the regime from one end to the other! It was the Solomon Volkov 'party line'. If you're denounced by Stalin, voila!, you're cleansed of the idiocy of communism and sovietism in one sanctification ceremony (well, there were two denunciations, actually).

I don't believe a word of it; I never have! The bombast he produced for Marxist-Leninism says it all to me. A couple of gripes about the Stalin regime and its successors to colleagues does not demonstrate anything like a renunciation of his faith in Leninism.

Do you believe that Shostakovich was really a Dissident?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Shostakovich
http://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/dmitri.html

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Wayward Son
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Hey, if his music is good, I don't care if he was a Stalin or a Satanist. (Or am I being redundant? [Confused] )
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kenmeer livermaile
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I'll take Prokofiev over Shostakovich. I'll take Bartok's quartets over Shosty's. I'll take Stravinsky, when he was on his game (fave example: Duo Concertante', especially as performed by Joseph Szigeti on violin) as a better distiller of sonal aesthetics than any of 'em.

I'll take Copland over 'em all for his ability to get it right between the heart bones.

But my current fave of all 20th cventury masters is Ralph Vaughn Williams. He just has that 'pastoral' thing down, and I'm way down with that pastoral thing.

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philnotfil
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Definitely a dissident. His symphonies are interesting to examine because of the politics of his music. He would write something amazing and cutting edge, the government would threaten him and he would write couple of boring and bland pieces, and then he would let loose again.

Later in his life he got tired of sleeping on his doorstep so that his family wouldn't be bothered when the police came to pick him up, so he stopped publishing his best work and just stuck it in his desk drawer. After Stalin's death he published much of that material.

One of the problems with discussing Shostakovich is that music historians tend to look at the entire body of work, but much of Shostakovich's work was done under odd circumstances. Usually if a composer has some great work, and a bunch of junk they a considered a lesser composer, but Shostakovich had some circumstances that limited what he could do musically.

There is a great film about his symphonies (and why they are the way they are) called Shostakovich against Stalin.

P.S. I second the vote for Vaughan Williams, especially his band music.

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philnotfil
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Question- when you say dissident are you referring to his stand on the ideals of Marxism, or his stand on the practice of Stalinism?
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kenmeer livermaile
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I'm a huge fan of his Pastoral Symphony, and his 'mood pieces' like "To A Lark Ascending".
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Richard Dey
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Phil:

I would have said his ability or inability to get up and leave Russia! He was a parochial extremist -- though he didn't spend the whole Siege in Leningrad. He wasn't quite that dedicated, and accepted willingly accepted evacuation.

He adamantly supported the Russian debacle against Finland.

I would have suggested that his saracasm is transluscent throughout his writing career, and had little or nothing to do with politics. He wasn't obliged to join the Party -- and I don't think he actually joined until old age, but he was more than happy to conduct the musicians' union under the Soviets.

One doesn't remain the Communists' favorite composer without reflecting Communist values pretty clearly: working bloaks unite! march on, march on for respite and delight!

His sarcasm IMHO never quite reached the heights of skepticism. I would say that he was not a dissident; he just didn't appreciate Stalin's criticisms -- especially where he'd supported him theretofor.

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kenmeer livermaile
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You know, a bloke can be a typical reactionary fathead in Soviet Russia and have it mean so much more.... and so much less.

Pure dissidents are rare indeed.

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Richard Dey
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Oz:

I agree. Vaughan Williams just didn't hit a wrong note, but I can't help but agree with critics that he (and Sebelius) were essentially a 19th-century composers. Not so of Nielssen!

To be blunt, I would have suggested that Shostokovich too was a 19th-century composer [FootInMouth] . He really belongs to the 19th-C nationalists rather than the 20th-C internatinalists to my way of thinking.

Prokoffieff, whom I have in 4th position, is all over the board. He was so cosmo in comparison to Shostokovich who was indubitably parochial. One never seems weighted down with P's greatness; one seems unable to lift oneself above S's.

I have Bartok in 2nd position. One simply cannot deny him at least that status, and not only for his esoteric works -- and his QUARTETS and the 2nd p con. The C for O is to my mind the 2nd-greatest and maybe the 1st-most-important 20th C work.

Hindemith, who is uneven at best and whom I have in 3rd, I have there for the greatest work of the 20th century, the Nobilissima Visione, and for the 4 Temperaments which I think are as good as Nielssen's. Nielssen is in my top 10! He moved from the 19th-20th with a steady and horrific stride. I know, nobody would agree with that, but I'm a fan of the Scandanavians (except Grieg who was almost Scottish).

As to the Americans, and I think they too suffer from 19th-C 'nationalism', I rank Piston higher than most would, Harris not awfully far behind, Barber (his Knoxville if you like the Lark), and Ives in 1st place. I'm partial to Cowell because of his interest in shape-note which to me is the true fons et origo of all American music, predating even the Ulsterfolk, is still popular around Boston. It's thund'rous! They should try some of it in the LDS quonset in SLC. For one thing, it brings the baritone and bass lines into full equality.

People wonder why choruses are always begging for low voices; it's because they aren't given any prominence in the chorus. I have to blame Handel and Haydn Society for that.

Copland is there -- but as an orchestrator and scene-setter (nobody had a wider perspective in that than he). To me Copland should be praised for putting Country & Western in the waste basket [Wink] .

Interesting, but I can't name a 20th-C French or Spanish composer in the 1st rank -- despite their wit. All the rest were basically 19th-century composers. And some Chavez and Vila-Lobos is Bachianas Brasileiras and some too-late nationalism to me.

One of the problems with evaluating the 20th-C composers is that the tops in each genre seems to have been written by somebody else! I mean, I would rank the top piano sonata by Medtner, the Tragica, even over the Prokoffieff sonatas! and I have never ranked P's symphonies amongst his better works (particularly detesting the 1st and 5th, his most pop). And Prokoffieff is the best ballet writer since Tschaikovsky (and to my mind a lot more cutting to the bone, though I've never taken to Stoneflower.) I'd go with Nielsen's 5th over all the Russian symphonies -- and I think his Aladdin is a positive hoot!

In any event, my top 20th-C composer is Unknown, likely European, probably undiscovered [Big Grin] . What I can joyfull say is that serial music was born and died in the 20th century. [Smile] ! [Smile] All performances should be banned to outer space where nobody can hear it.

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Richard Dey
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NB: I'm always spelling NielSen with 2 esses. I know the singer.
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Richard Dey
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N.B.: I'm not knocking Paul McCartny, by the way; it's just that was very definitely a 19th-C English music-hall composer [Big Grin] a bit ahead of his time.
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philnotfil
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dey:
Phil:

I would have said his ability or inability to get up and leave Russia! He was a parochial extremist -- though he didn't spend the whole Siege in Leningrad. He wasn't quite that dedicated, and accepted willingly accepted evacuation.

He adamantly supported the Russian debacle against Finland.

I would have suggested that his saracasm is transluscent throughout his writing career, and had little or nothing to do with politics. He wasn't obliged to join the Party -- and I don't think he actually joined until old age, but he was more than happy to conduct the musicians' union under the Soviets.

One doesn't remain the Communists' favorite composer without reflecting Communist values pretty clearly: working bloaks unite! march on, march on for respite and delight!

His sarcasm IMHO never quite reached the heights of skepticism. I would say that he was not a dissident; he just didn't appreciate Stalin's criticisms -- especially where he'd supported him theretofor.

Why should he have to leave Russia? It's his country too? What does his willingness to accept evacuation from Leningrad have to do with his support (or lack of support) for the government? He wasn't the communists' favorite composer, but he was the Russian composer who got the most attention in the Western world, and they used him as much as they could. He was willing to accept the perks they offered. If he had not been as well-known outside of Russia he would have been dead.
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Richard Dey
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Phil:

I wasn't complaining about DS's personal 'life choices'; I was complaining about those who keep making excuses for why he made them.

Do I respect the choices he made? I do not. But do I think that he did what he did because he wasn't a commie? No way! and I'm sick of hearing the same old apologias trotted out every time djs toss on another military symphony when it isn't even May Day Memory Day.

Prokoffieff went back too, and spent the War in Russia; but nobody looks upon him as a communist. In every western capital he performed in, he instantly sought out the best restaurants, stayed at the fanciest hotels, and indulged some very bourgeois tastes. He never apologized to the Communist Party -- and refused to join it.

Instead, to make Shostakovich a sudden non-Communist, we get all kinds of Volkovian crap about how he was denounced by Stalin (who didn't want his music used for propaganda purposes, that's all), and how the Communist Party persecuted him. In short, whitewashing Shostakovich the Red makes him marketable in the West. At least he comes out pink.

Listen to Sitnikov, a life-long friend, and erstwhile Deputy Chief of disinformation of the KGB:--

Now one is supposed to believe that this man lived a monstrous secret life of deception, was so morally corrupted that he could even delude his wife and children, not to speak of his Party and friends, and to top it off even wrote lying music -- and that he revealed his true self only to a man he had never met before, who spoke to him four times, and only twice alone. Can anyone in his right mind believe that? "Shostakovich," said Sitnikov, "was a Communist until the day he died."

Volkov is now listed at the Russian Institute at Columbia University as "researcher" -- euphemism for "working for the CIA".


Listen to Deriabin:

KGB's "Disinformation Department" (he was its deputy chief), which spent its time planting fraudulent documents in the West, sponsoring books for the lies they spread, painting swastikas on synagogues to give the impression that Nazism was reawakening in West Germany -- all sorts of things to suppress and distort truth and to confuse and mislead the West ...

Shostakovich and the KGB, in short, were in bed together; he saw the inside of Lubyanka all right -- on a guided tour with champagne and caviar by candlelight! Why make excuses for that?

Vide, e.g.: http://www.siue.edu/~aho/musov/deb/kgb.html

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Richard Dey
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Phil -- one more thing, if you're understanding my meaning. The CIA is, in theory if not in practice, "the good guys". The KGB was in theory and practice "the bad guys" [Wink] .

What I'm saying is that, whether you approve of Shotakovich's 'life choices' or not (and I do not), those defending these life choices don't know who the man was and are are hearing in his music what they want to hear.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"don't know who the man was and are are hearing in his music what they want to hear.":

I hear notes. Played on western classical symphonic instruments in 12-tones octaves. Largely void of Afro-Americanist blue notes although some of the folk tunes in his string quartets give a fair match with their soputheastern European 'gipsy' riffs.

"Nielssen"

A largely hidden but delightful treat with whom I wish I were more well-acquainted. And tes, I agree about the 19th century composer assessment.

"I'm partial to Cowell "

When he was on his game he rocked the house. Some of his 'hymn and fugue' stuff is dead on.

"Copland is there -- but as an orchestrator and scene-setter "

Aye. I listen to Appalachian SPring for the purpose of hearing maybe 5-6 minutes of it: the opening, the middle respite, and the fading twilight minutes.

I love every dang repititious second of his incidental music to Our Town. But yes, his symphonies bore me.

"What I can joyfull say is that serial music was born and died in the 20th century."

Only guy who ever squeezed any juice from serialism was Frank Zappa. But then, he couldn't help infusing it with jazz and blues, hence the slight twitches of life he evinced from that rigor mortis.

I think the middle movement of Barber's Violin Concerto. (I'm far more fond of slow movements than the uptempo stuff, preferring jazz et cetera for that work, unless we're gonna dig up Beethoven, a man who swung every note he touched).

You're old enough to have had LPs of Bartok playing Bartok piano works, yes? Nothing compares. If Beethoven were around, he'd play piano like that. Bartok swung harder than Monk and had every bit the touch that Art Tatum had. (I know, you're not a jazz fan.)

And Dvorak, the never-ending Xmas card! I LOVE Dvoarak!

[ September 26, 2006, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Richard Dey
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Oh yes, he did some jazz suite things. Jazz band stuff but better. No, I'm not a jazz fan. The "serious" composers did so much more with it than most of the "performers". Besides, it kind of choked to death on its own self-satisfaction.

Copland. Yes. I was virtually brought up in Our Town in the Monadnock region (that's where the Macdowell Colony is), and the setting is perfect. Gay playwright, gay composer, not a gay scene [Wink] .

Gawds, Oz! I'm old enough to remember cranking a Victrola and playing one-sided Bluebird records! It's true! When my grandmother gave dancing lessons in the house, I got to crank the machine and change the records -- from 'Tea for Two' to 'Begin the Beguine' to 'Skater's Waltz' to 'Bomba Rumba' and "Three O'Clock in the Morning". Then I'd play the Golliwog Cakewalk (a sort of Americanism by Debussey) and a priceless recording of Gottschalk's "Banjo" (still one of the greatest piano pieces IMHO) -- oh, and my introduction to "classical" which was Prince's Band doing the Imperial German anthem (Haydn, of course!) and some of their ragtime recordings. (I've always liked rag, though I don't want an evening of it!) It was 'dance music' for my grandparent's generation.

But Prince's Band, IYWR, was also the producer of the 1st ragtime-to-jazz records, maybe even the 1st jazz recordings of all. I learnt my Roman numerals by them, and I can well remember dating one record to 1913.

I'd forgotten all that [Embarrassed] ! There were Caruso recordings too, of course, and I remember jazz being spelt jass on a Columbia recording dating from 1917. It was a sky-blue label! How's that for recall! I also got to change the needles (replacing a worn-out needle with one sharpened on the back of matchstriker of the old coal stove!)

I think what I didn't like about jazz was that it went to Chicago and New York and got ... 'compromised' is too nice a term.

Dvorak? Mon dieu, Brahms was right [Big Grin] ! That leads right to Nielsen -- and Nielsen went right on into the 20th century without a bump!

Oh, and speaking of the Barber concerto (which is oddly sequenced) and has TMM an unnecessary and mismatched last movement, try the Nielsen v con -- but play it backwards (I mean, play the 1st movement last). It's also oddly sequenced -- but the 1st movement is violinissimo, a sweeping, soaring statement!

Nielsen is exquisite -- and had a butch haircut [Smile] .

Dvorak! I remember and still count with the old numbering. Dvorak was right too. He was close with what's now the 5th, but absolutely hits his stride in the underestimated 6th. The 7th and 8th are more original, but the 6th I call Little Train that Could. A great orchestra will play it nonestop, no conductor, completely engrossed, error-free -- and they'll figure out what Dvorak went through to get there [Smile] .

Greatest work ever? Still Brahms' piano quintet. I've never changed my childhood mind. I knew it when I'd heard. I had it confirmed by those I admired. Never doubted it. Have always compared it to everything I've heard since.

Yes, hymns and fugues in shape-note choruses. Billings, that era. Rich and sonorous, and I only wish Brahms had experienced it. We'd have some really huge quintuple fugues. Europeans would have had a much better impression of America had they heard it, but it was out of fashion by the time Americans were traveling much abroad. The richness of it in a close-vaulted space can't be captured on record, tape, or digital. It's vibrational in the butt hole [Wink] .

Hey, Mozart couldn't write a fugue. I like complexity. I want my money's worth [Big Grin] .

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Richard Dey
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Peterborough, the mill village, looking north. The steeple is the Unitarian Church (with a very good Steinway grand), to the left the biggest brick hall is the Town House (also Monadnock Music), to the left up the hill is the Guernsey Registry (for cows!), and off to the left, high in the hills, is the MacDowell Colony. You can walk to it. The river is the Contookook.

Our Town [URL=http:// www.neairphoto.com/Lg_photos/peterborough_far.htm]Peterborough]Our Town[/URL]

Grand Monadnock . It looks closer from the Colony than this. This is the 'sacred hill' of New England, because all 6 states can be seen from it without having to see New York [Big Grin] .
Grand Monadnock

Some pix of town. The Peterborough Players is one of the premier 'summuh theaytuhz'. I think they premiered Our Town, actually. http://www.conval.edu/Schools/pes/photo_walktourpebro.htm

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Richard Dey
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Try again.

http://www.neairphoto.com/stock.htm#Mt_Monad

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Richard Dey
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Memories! Gah! Nearby is Jaffrey, where some of my family summered (and myself a couple of summers). The Meeting house is type 2, side door (the builders heard the cannon from the Battle of Bunker Hill -- at least 60 miles away!), but the odd tower added made it a type 3. Monadnock Music performs here too, and well remember a rousing Dvorak quartet here. Willa Cather is in the buryground.

http://www.painetworks.com/photos/ih/ih1106.JPG

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kenmeer livermaile
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And it's that pristine New England fall... New Hampshire!

"Besides, it kind of choked to death on its own self-satisfaction."

It IS a self-indulgent form. It not only succumbed but fell in love with the "vulgar impulse toward genius".

Thus only true geniuses (Miles Davis, Thelonius Monk, Fletcher Henderson, Bix Beiderbecke) held the form in sufficiently detached remove to probe its depths without wallowing in them.

Copland was gay. Waddya know?

"Then I'd play the Golliwog Cakewalk (a sort of Americanism by Debussey)"

Played well, it has more swing than almost any Euro-classical 'jazzifications'.

"There were Caruso recordings too, of course"

With those horribly mistuned band accompaniments!

"I think what I didn't like about jazz was that it went to Chicago and New York and got ... 'compromised' is too nice a term."

I couldn't stand any jazz younger than 1943 until I reentered the chamber, so to speak, in my mid-20s. And really, anything after 1937 put me off.

They say the Golden Age of Sci-Fi is 12. For me, the Golden Age of jazz was 17. The Benny Goodman Quartet reunion of the early '70s pulled me and my hard-rock friends out of our lead zeppelins and onto the jaunty aeroplanes of the 20s and 30s Jazz Era. Goodman introduced us to Bartok by way of his recording (with Bartok and Szigeti) of Bartok's "Contrasts".

I traced my way back through the Austin High gang to the New Orleans-Chicago riverboat shuffle, in so discovering what a delightful monster the Young Satchmo had been.

When I discovered the Basie-Young phenomenon...

Kansas City was, perhaps, the Golden Age of jazz. Not grown up but old enough to get some...

"Oh, and speaking of the Barber concerto (which is oddly sequenced) and has TMM an unnecessary and mismatched last movement"

Agreed. It's colorful but doesn't swing. The 1st and 2nd movements are the concerto to me.

"...try the Nielsen v con -- but play it backwards (I mean, play the 1st movement last). It's also oddly sequenced -- but the 1st movement is violinissimo, a sweeping, soaring statement! Nielsen is exquisite -- and had a butch haircut"

I'd love to have caught him and RVWilliams getting their hair cut in adjacent stools. Nielsen's mighty top; RVW's mighty eyebrows [Wink]

I discovered Dvorak through his string quarets, live, at free Chicago String Quartet concerts in the downtown Chicago Public Library in the mid/late 70s.

The second violinist, a laid back, tall, Gary Cooperish type who also resembled Joseph Szigeti, would lay back on those simple dah-dah-dah-dah background grooves that Dvorak wrote so effortlessly into his quartets. Just bounced those parts down the stairs of the old church like a 4-year old bouncing down carpeted stairs on her bottom.

Memories are good.

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philnotfil
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Hmmm, I'll stick with what my music professors taught me, thanks.

It certainly isn't clear cut either way, but most of the people researching his life agree that he wasn't really a communist. There are some researchers who disagree, but the generally accepted versioni of the history is that his "communist" music was done at the not so gentle request of the government. Enough of his music pushes limits that the Soviet government did not want pushed that we can safely say that he was not in agreement with what the government wanted musically.

It may be that he was actually 42% communist instead of 27% percent communist, but I still haven't seen anything that suggests he liked the politics of the communists in Russia.

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Richard Dey
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Oz:

Agree with everything, exactly. Yes, fall is falling upon is quickly. Nobody does autumn like New England (thank heavens or the world would be uninhabitable [Big Grin] ).

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Richard Dey
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I dunno [Confused] , Phil. His oldest and dearest friend insisted otherwise, and his family never denied it. "Shostakovich," said Sitnikov, "was a Communist until the day he died." Maybe he didn't get along with a lot of Communists, but he hardly went out of his way to meet people who weren't Communists.

Sitnikov has nothing to gain by lying. He's admitted that he was a KGB agent, but how could deny it? He was an official.

I think the truth is just staring us in the face. Shostakovich was a thoroughly dedicated communist. When Stalin and Beria and Boys took offense at his music, Shostakovich fought back -- not against communism but about official opinion of his music. Nobody at the top ever complained about the communist; the complained about the music coming from his apartment.

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Richard Dey
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Oh, and yes, he and Holst and Souza are the Boys in the Band, not a single one of them gay. We win another category, we're on a drum roll! [Smile]
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kenmeer livermaile
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Spokane does an exquisite fall as well. But it lacks the splendid glowing haze of a fine New England September/October day.

Communist? Some of my best friends have been communists!

"When Stalin and Beria and Boys took offense at his music, Shostakovich fought back -- not against communism but about official opinion of his music. Nobody at the top ever complained about the communist; the complained about the music coming from his apartment."

Not that any of them knew a good note from a sour fart [Wink]

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Richard Dey
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[Smile] . I suspect you're right. Nor did any of the officialese prevent Shostakovich from assuming the presidency of the Musician's Union in Russia.

Who is this Turk (mumbles like that Canadian Bachophile used to)? A Waldstein today (on Naive Records?) -- simply stupendous. It was like hearing it for the 1st time, and drove me to the score to be sure he was playing Beethoven! Pefect phrasing, but all new pronunciations!

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Snowden
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kenmeer, try to get your hands on Williams "Fantasia on a theme from Thomas Tallis," it's gorgeous. It's by far my favorite of his pieces.


As to Shostakovich, his 5th symphony, while impressive, is a bit over played. I'm a Shostakovich 10 man. I played #11 last year, and I almost understood it, but there is something about 10 that makes sense to me.

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Richard Dey
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Snowden:

And what in the 2nd movement of the 10th makes sense to you? Isn't that the depiction of Stalin?

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Snowden
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quote:
And what in the 2nd movement of the 10th makes sense to you? Isn't that the depiction of Stalin?
It makes sense as a depiction of Stalin's regime, a brutally aggressive romp.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"kenmeer, try to get your hands on Williams "Fantasia on a theme from Thomas Tallis," it's gorgeous. It's by far my favorite of his pieces."

First thing I ever heard by him. It IS gorgeous. These days, though, I prefer his less 'gothic' work. More breathing room. But don't get me wrong, the Tallis Fantasia is a marvel.

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Richard Dey
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Well, the public was expecting something more, Snowden. His apologists in the US were expecting a savage denunciation of Stalinism, its pogroms, exterminations (of which he was most-certainly aware), its 5-year plans, and an exhuberant exaltation of his new-found freedom.

Instead, we got a 5-min 'denunciation' of Stalin featuring DSCH (D-E flat-C-B) -- DS himself!, dancing with the Stalin theme, and a primary theme of 3 ascending notes as if the two dancing bears had pulled a coup!

Were your opinion not what was expected by those flocking to the premieres, I would take it seriously; but it was the expectation which was not and is not fulfilled, and cannot be until the 2nd movement has been "decoded" (as DS suggested it needed to be).

That almost every performance and recording of the 10th since has played the 2nd movement as if it were a denunciation of Stalin has not made it so. Check the recordings of Dohnanyi, Haitink (the studio recording), Jansons, Karajan, Mravinsky, Ormandy, and Rattle. Even Karajan, whom DS couldn't look in the face, stuck to the predetermined orthodoxy that the DSCH theme is warrior battle against the megalomaniac of evil and the chaos of communism. It isn't.

I mean ...! It's an allegro not an allegory, it's an allegro brevis for cripe's sake. Even if it were denunciatory, which I doubt, it is perfunctory.

I would suggest that the prevailing orthodoxy is as fantastic as my dancing bears.

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kenmeer livermaile
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I like what Barotk had to say in the 4th movement of his Concerto for Orchestra.

As for Stalin, the best depitcion I ever heard of him was 'The Magic Bowel Movement' by Wolfgang Amadeus Majinski. (apologies to Firesgin Theater, 'How Can Yu Be In Two Places At Once When You're Really Nowhere At All?')

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Richard Dey
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[Big Grin] Yes! Especially the original coda!

Ah, Firesign and The Goon Show. What this generation is being deprived of!

Oz: Can you get WHRB on your computer? It divides its airwaves 1/3 classical (02:00-22:00, 1/3 jazz till two in the afternoon, 1/3 "Record Hospital" (22:00-) (whatever is chic). Less interruptions for Harvard hockey, et al., its jazz is classic and a lot of cleaned-up old recordings.

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Richard Dey
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http://www.whrb.org/
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kenmeer livermaile
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Monsieur Dey:

I now can, having a high-speed connexion.

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Richard Dey
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Another good one is the PBS mother station 09:00 -16:00 EDST. They're savvy.
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