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Author Topic: GOP House leadership should resign
kenmeer livermaile
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Nah, we don't take you seriously... at least, not very. We know you can be fairly logical when you choose, but when you compare the subpoena of Foley's emails with a nationwide digital wire-sive ('tap' is far too precise a concept for what Bush has been doing) -- and cite Ann C in the process...
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Daruma28
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I'll take advice on reasoned discourse from someone who actually has a track record of reasoned discourse, thank you very much.

As a general rule of thumb, when you reject any particular argument based solely on the name of the person making it (like Ann), you need to step back and examine your own biases. Most every person on either side of the aisle makes a valid point about any given topic at one time or another. Hell, I've even been known to admit it when I think YOU make a valid point.

Finally, I've come to the realization that "actual debate" basically gets nowhere. Most times most people enter into a debate here and than leave it with their own ideas and opinions intact. So I am now taking the kenmeer approach...which is to mainly I post and read to entertain myself. I'm under no illusions or some kind of misguided notion that participating in "reasoned debates" does me or anyone else any real good.

Afterall, none of us are ever going to have the affect on real world policy like Peter Wiggens did in OSC novels. lol

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Wayward Son
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quote:
think Ann's got a perfectly legitimate point - the same folks that want a government investigation into Foley's PRIVATE emails and IM's are the same ones that don't want the Governments investigations into suspected Al Qaeda operatives private communications.
Do you know this for a fact (e.g. can you name names) or does it simply fit your perception of Washington at the moment?

Because you can't take Ann's word on anything...

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Everard
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"As a general rule of thumb, when you reject any particular argument based solely on the name of the person making it (like Ann), you need to step back and examine your own biases."

If you can find me a valid argument Ann Coulter has ever made, then we can talk.

However, as I said, THIS particular argument you post is a straw man. Granted, its dressed up nicely.

There's a world of difference between asking for a legal investigation, and saying that illegal investigations are illegal. Ann totally ignores that distinction, thus making her point non-existent.

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Daruma28
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"If you can find me a valid argument Ann Coulter has ever made, then we can talk."

Oh please. We both know that what you define as valid is very different as to what I define as valid.

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Wayward Son
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quote:
We both know that what you define as valid is very different as to what I define as valid.
So perhaps you should find sources that both of you consider valid, rather than one which one of you finds questionable. [Smile]
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RickyB
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Um, Daruma - do you believe employers can investigate whether or not someone did something wrong when im'ing 17 year olds about sex on the employers' dime?

Enough already. And the most ludicrous part of it all is, next you'll deny being a pro-GOP, anti-Dem partisan. Really, have some sense of self-critique, both of yourself and your chosen side.

You don't have kids yet (correct me if I'm wrong), but tell me again what you'd do if a 54 year old man, who works where your 17 year old brother works, was trying to pressure your brother into sexually gratifying him? Measure his dick for him? meet him for dinner "and..."?

You'd want to kick the guy's ass. Now, imagine it's your emplyee doing this. Now imagine management at the company (also your employees) knew that the first employee was up to this and let it continue.

Still think the matter is overblown? Surrrrrre you do.

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Everard
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"Oh please. We both know that what you define as valid is very different as to what I define as valid."

I judge an arguments validity by facts and logic...

you contend that we define valid arguments differently, so what criteria do you use?

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Daruma28
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Ricky, I agree with you 100%.

What I think is overblown is the entire seemingly coordinated assault by the Democrats and their sycophants in the mainstream media to try and indict the entire GOP with this scandal weeks before the mid-term elections. The motives are so transparent it's hilarious.

For one thing, there's no evidence whatsoever that there was actually any physical sex occuring here....so what actual laws were broken then?

Morally, it's disgusting, and if I were this Page's father, you're damn right I'd want to kick his ass...but it's the whole partisan political that I find overblown and quite hysterical.

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Everard
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"For one thing, there's no evidence whatsoever that there was actually any physical sex occuring here....so what actual laws were broken then?"

Corruption of a minor, and sexual harrassment laws, at the very least.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/84730,CST-NWS-pageqanda05.article

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/02/washington/02legal.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"but it's the whole partisan political that I find overblown and quite hysterical."

Did you find the Clinton stuff overblown and quite hysterical?

[ October 05, 2006, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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Daruma28
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"Oh please. We both know that what you define as valid is very different as to what I define as valid."

I judge an arguments validity by facts and logic...

you contend that we define valid arguments differently, so what criteria do you use?

I'll use an example to illustrate my point:

A quote from Ann Coulter that I think is perfectly valid, and I'm quite sure you do not:

quote:
And most recently, ignoring the pleas of the administration, 9/11 commissioners and even certifiable liberal Rep. Jack Murtha, the Times revealed another top secret program that had allowed the Treasury Department to track terrorists' financial transactions.

We're in a battle for our survival and we don't even know who the enemy is. As liberals are constantly reminding us, Islam is a "Religion of Peace." One very promising method of distinguishing the "Religion of Peace" Muslims from the "Slit Their Throats" Muslims is by following the al-Qaida money trail.

But now we've lost that ability — thanks to The New York Times.

You've posted at length about your support for the New York Times for such actions, so no doubt you find her point invalid.

I, on the other hand, think she's exactly right in pointing out that the NYT needlessly and treasonously exposed a program vital to tracking terrorists around the world. I think her point here is perfectly logical and valid.

I'm quite sure you do not.

So again, we're back to the fact that you and I will never really agree on what is valid or not on a whole host of issues and topics.

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Daruma28
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quote:
Did you find the Clinton stuff overblown and quite hysterical?
As far as Monica goes? Absolutely.
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Everard
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"But now we've lost that ability — thanks to The New York Times."

Where are her facts to support this contention? Does she offer any? No. She's got speculation that is politically motivated... if it weren't politically motivated, she would have pointed out that the program had been "outted" way before teh NYT did anything with it.

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Liberal
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Apparently for a period of four hours today, the Fox News ticker read that Foley was a Democrat from Florida, even though they got his party afilliation correct every day until now............
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Daruma28
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Thanks for proving my point.

I'm not going to bother and go research the readings I did concerning this matter. I just know that the NYT has on several occasions "outted" top secret programs (like publishing photos of CIA Operative planes with tailfin ID numbers in plain view) that were part of the anti-terror operations, and that in every instance, you and your like-minded liberals alwasy found a reason, justification or excuse as to why it was good that they were doing it.

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Daruma28
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Of course Liberal. Everybody knows that Fox is a GOP propaganda machine, just as CNN is a DNC propaganda machine. Isn't that to be expected?
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Everard
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Thanks for proving mine. Facts don't matter to Ann... just the political spin she can put on it. And you find it a valid argument if it agrees with your bash-the-liberals stance, regardless of the facts.

A valid argument about the NYT/financial tracking incident, from the "its bad" viewpoint would demonstrate WHY its bad. Ann's argument ASSUMES its bad, and slanders the NYT without showing that it is bad... and despite the fact the program had already been outted, in part by the president.

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Liberal
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quote:
Originally posted by Daruma28:
Of course Liberal. Everybody knows that Fox is a GOP propaganda machine, just as CNN is a DNC propaganda machine. Isn't that to be expected?

Somehow I can't see CNN claiming Clinton was a republican during his impeachment trial...


I watch CNN a lot and it seems to me they get automatically assigned as the "liberal" counterpoint station to Fox only because Fox is so polarized. CNN spends a lot of time going over the Conservative viewpoint and even hashing out Bush talking points. But then, I guess I'm one of those silly people that doesn't believe in the myth of the "liberal media."

[ October 05, 2006, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Apparently for a period of four hours today, the Fox News ticker read that Foley was a Democrat from Florida, even though they got his party afilliation correct every day until now............
You didn't hear that he changed his party membership today? He announced that he feels he wouldn't have been rejected by his fellow party members if he had been caught doing this as a democrat. [Big Grin]
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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
and despite the fact the program had already been outted, in part by the president.
How can something be partly outed? Or did the president announce something at the same exact time as someone else? Or do you consider it a partial outing of the president makes a revealing comment slightly after it's been outed but not if the NYT makes a revealing comment slightly after it's been outed?

I just want to get the facts straight.

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Liberal
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Sort of like how Duke Cunningham switched to Republican because then they wouldn't reject him for bribery, oh wait, he WAS a republican... [Roll Eyes]
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Daruma28
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So what's not factual for stating that a front page expose detailing how terrrorist affiliated transactions were being monitored and traced renders such a program non longer useful? It's pretty much common sense.

Like I said, I think her criticism is perfectly valid and you don't. No surprise their.

Here Ev...lets try another one - a "Fact filled" valid point:

quote:
The original "leaker" of Plame's name to columnist Bob Novak — not a crime — was not in the White House at all. It was Richard Armitage, a State Department official and opponent of the Iraq war.

The information that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA had nothing to do with harming Wilson. It did not come from the White House. It did not even come from someone who supported the war in Iraq.

The rest of the world found out Armitage was Novak's source last week, something Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald knew from the first week of his investigation. So what was Fitzgerald investigating?

Valid?

lol

[ October 05, 2006, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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Daruma28
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"But then, I guess I'm one of those silly people that doesn't believe in the myth of the "liberal media."

Well you did decide to use "Liberal" as your moniker, so of course you are one of those silly people... [Wink]

To clarify - I'm not CNN ever purposely misidentified a Democrat as a Republican. I'm only saying that the folks at FOX are obviously pro GOP, while the folks at CNN are obviously pro DNC...and CNN has their own means and methods of promoting that.

Anyhow, putting that on the side for the moment, I do have to say that I've seen PLENTY of news crawls on ALL of the channels (cable national news and local TV national) get all kinds of mistakes, mispellings and grammatical errors. It may or may not have been a genuine mistake on the poor sap who is typing in the text for the news crawl.

Because it was FOX, I wouldn't be surprised if it were done purpose - but I wouldn't assume that was the case either.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"So I am now taking the kenmeer approach..."

*ahem* That's The Kenmeer Approach. [Wink]

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DaveS
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quote:
So the name leaked out and it appears that at least some, if not all, of the emails/IM's in question occurred after the guy turned 18. If Drudge has this right and they all occurred after he turned 18, some people are going to look downright silly at best and the backlash could start.
Sorry to frustrate you, G2, but ABC News is reporting:
quote:
Three more former congressional pages have come forward to reveal what they call "sexual approaches" over the Internet from former Congressman Mark Foley.

The pages served in the classes of 1998, 2000 and 2002. They independently approached ABC News after the Foley resignation through the Brian Ross & the Investigative Team's tip line on ABCNews.com. None wanted their names used because of the sensitive nature of the communications.

"I was seventeen years old and just returned to [my home state] when Foley began to e-mail me, asking if I had ever seen my page roommates naked and how big their penises were," said the page in the 2002 class.

The former page also said Foley told him that if he happened to be in Washington, D.C., he could stay at Foley's home if he "would engage in oral sex" with Foley

The more we learn, the more we don't want to know. This story has more legs than a tarantula.
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kenmeer livermaile
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"nationwide digital wire-sive ('tap' is far too precise a concept for what Bush has been doing)"

'sive' should read sieve.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Morally, it's disgusting, and if I were this Page's father, you're damn right I'd want to kick his ass...but it's the whole partisan political that I find overblown and quite hysterical."

It's a hoot, ain't it? But what can you expect? It's election season. Hell, McCain would probably be our president if Bush hadn't bush-whacked him in South Carolina:

Bush's campaign strategists, including Karl Rove, devised a push poll against John McCain. South Carolina voters were asked "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?". They had no interest in the actual percentages in the poll, the goal was to suggest that [McCain had a black child]. This was particularly vicious since McCain was campaining with his adopted [dark skinned] Bangladeshi daughter

Imagine: McCain instead of Double-Ought.

"a) Did you find the Clinton stuff overblown and quite hysterical?

b)As far as Monica goes? Absolutely."

Overblown? My understanding is that she was actually rather efficient and calm about the hole thing...

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RickyB
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No, Fox is a GOP propaganda machine far, far and above any alleigance CNN may have with the Dems.

Now, this is not just Foley, because GOP house leadership knew and failed to take effective action due to cronyism and sheer "I don't wanna get into that unpleasant business". That's a valid political point (especially since the GOP is always so high on morals and moraliziang) and no amount of hypocritical hand wringing is going to change that.

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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by DaveS:
Sorry to frustrate you, G2, but ABC News is reporting: ...

I'm not furstrated at all but I appreciate your concern, however misplaced it may be. After all, Foley did resign for a reason.
quote:
Originally posted by RickyB:
No, Fox is a GOP propaganda machine far, far and above any alleigance CNN may have with the Dems.

You may want to strap another layer of foil on your hat.
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Richard Dey
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Actually, any law-enforcement body may require an ISP to freeze transcription data on any site -- which is why I asked about any legal differentials between emails and 'instant messages'. In this this case, of course, it was AoL -- which just managed to publish the tracking data on 93,000,000 transactions with an oooops -- and a sudden rush to the boardroom to "reevaluate" corporate objectives [Wink] .

The Bush-Cheney administration is urging laws to expand ISP data-retention requirements -- which I'm sure they'll claim would have allowed them to catch all this diarrhea before the feces hit the fan.

Well, too late! Dey is now opposed to increasing ISP DRR [Mad] !

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Daruma28
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quote:
No, Fox is a GOP propaganda machine far, far and above any alleigance CNN may have with the Dems.
Wow Ricky, you guys really DO have some good weed in Israel..... [Razz] [LOL]

[ October 06, 2006, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: Daruma28 ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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I think CNN is catching up with fox now that the political tide is shifting...

ever try smoking weed in a tinfoil hat pipe?

which news oputlet is m,ore biased against one's preferred party/ depends on one's biax how biased one thinks they are.

but good weed helps

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DonaldD
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So Ken - when you joined us some 6000-odd posts ago, were you typing one-handed then too? 'Cause your typo-frequency seems to have reverted to form... (or maybe it's the painkillers...) [Smile]
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RickyB
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LOL, Daruma.
Sadly, nope. I mean, you can get good kind-bud, and when you do it's at prices that would make my NYC buddies want to convert and move here (about 12 bucks a gram, which comes to 340 bucks an ounce, for stuff that'll cost 50%-100% more in the north-east, and over here you can actually get it by the gram and get a big discount for buying a whole ounce), but the supply is very limited and irregular (mo-fo ain't had news for me in 3 weeks...).

I hear that prices in the southwest and northwest are much more reasonable though. How about Hawaii? Probably expensive like everything else there, although Hawaiian bud rocks.

Right now, it's tough to even get merch-grade weed over here, due to increased border vigilance on both northern and southern borders. Hash is obtainable (it being much easier to smuggle and all), but I much prefer the green to the brown.

The merch grade weed here (when we can get it) is not that good, but it's dirt cheap. I get 50 grams (1.75 Oz) for less than 50 bucks. Comparable stuff in NYC costs 5 times as much at least.

I miss Amsterdam. I want to go down to the corner shop and get a gram or two of Orangebud. Not even talking about Northern Lights or Purple Haze. <wistful emoticon>

[ October 06, 2006, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: RickyB ]

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Daruma28
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Really good stuff - average wholesale street price: $500 - $550 oz. or usually $25 a gram. Thats top grade Hawaiian Homegrown or the equivalent indoors or .

I get it for $400 an oz. though, cause I know the right people. [Smile]

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kenmeer livermaile
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"So Ken - when you joined us some 6000-odd posts ago, were you typing one-handed then too? 'Cause your typo-frequency seems to have reverted to form... (or maybe it's the painkillers...)'

ironic, yes?

i type small pots now, compered to mu usual novels. balances out.

pain-killers less influential than 1 hand type. their effect is probably more in my tone [less grumpy?]

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DonaldD
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fewer adjectives, articles, adverbs and complex phrases too.
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kenmeer livermaile
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turrible, ain't it?
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Liberal
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Apparently it just came out that Hastert's Chief of Staff confronted Foley long before 2005 about the seriousness of Foley's various behaviors and what he considered to be a "negative trend."

http://www.registerguard.com/news/2006/10/07/a1.foley.1007.p1.php?section=nation_world

This will be the 2nd lie from Hastert's office. Why should we keep giving him the benefit of the doubt after all of these discrepencies?

[ October 07, 2006, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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we won't. he's tast. but he must 'yield w/ dignity.
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