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Author Topic: The Murdered Amish Girls and The Church of Hate
KnightEnder
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Did y'all hear that that church (I forget their name, on purpose) that protests soldiers funerals and holds up signs saying "God hates Fags" etc. where threatening to be at the funerals of those poor Amish girls executed by that insane scumbag in PA? They were going to hold up signs saying "God Hates Your Children" and "Your Children Deserved to Die" etc. [Mad]

Can you imagine the shock and pain that would have caused the Amish? Because I'm sure the Amish have never heard of these nuts. (They don't watch television right? Probably a smart decision.)

Did y'all hear about the Radio Talk Show host that gave the Wacko Church and hour of free air time so they wouldn't protest the Amish childrens funerals? The wackos took the deal and the air time and left the funeral alone.

What do y'all think about that? Was the Talk Show Host right to do it? Or wrong to deal with these scumbags?


[Crying] Did y'all hear that the older Amish girls (12 & 13 begged the murderer to shoot them instead of the younger children. [Crying] Brought tears to my eyes.) When you raise kids that will do something heroic and selfless like that, you ARE doing something right.

I swear that if I was one of those Amish parents and that church of insane evil bastards showed up with their signs saying God hates your (dead) daughters I would kill as many of them as possible.

This is one of the cases that makes me hope there is a Hell so this child murdering bastard will get what he deserves. [Mad]

KE

[ October 07, 2006, 08:00 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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TommySama
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On those grounds, a lawyer with a knack for Sophistry could probably argue that their outrageous expression of their views are inciting of violence, and could block them that way.
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0Megabyte
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Hmm. I might someday BE such a lawyer... *laughs maniacally.*

But seriously. I heard of this, and it was appaling to me. If I remember correctly, it had something to do with... oh, man, I dunno, some sort of Calvinistic crap about the actions of that regions' leader causing it or something. I didn't pay as much attention as I should have.

Such is the nature of evil in America. It is not the "amoral atheists" and the "liberal conspiracy" but instead, the evil in this country comes from those who claim to be Christians, who desire to force all others to follow their Taliban-esque worldview of hateful bigotry.

That is evil. And any God that would make human beings, design them a certain way, and then say that to do as we were designed is evil, is not God, but an enemy of humankind. It's a Satan. So, for all intents and purposes, such people are Satan-worshippers.

(How long after I say that in public before one of them proves it by assassinating me? [Big Grin] Again, taking bets... )

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Jesse
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Oh, trust me...

Those vets who show up on hogs when these freaks try their crap at soldiers funerals would be there in a heart beat. I'm betting more than a couple hundred would have showed.

They have a right to free speech. It sucks, but they do.

I'm willing to bet, however, that some folks in the county the funerals were held in could have gotten an injunction to stop them in order to prevent destruction to property..and if they sued over their free speech rights later, well, the funerals were all on the same day.

I would have donated to help pay off whatever judgement was assesed against the Sheriff who had them locked up.

Oh...about the muderous kook himself...I'm betting he was wanting virgins...and I'm betting those girls refused to cooperate even with a gun in the ear.

I, by the way, have never drawn to an inside straight.

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Paladine
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quote:
Such is the nature of evil in America. It is not the "amoral atheists" and the "liberal conspiracy" but instead, the evil in this country comes from those who claim to be Christians, who desire to force all others to follow their Taliban-esque worldview of hateful bigotry.

Oh please. We have plenty of evil in this country and this world from every point of the ideological and religious spectrum. You think NAMBLA is a Christian organization? Implying that the only people who do significant evil or harm are Christian is as offensive as it is inaccurate, and I hope you'll be so kind as to retract (or at the very least, extend and revise) your comment.

quote:
That is evil. And any God that would make human beings, design them a certain way, and then say that to do as we were designed is evil, is not God, but an enemy of humankind. It's a Satan. So, for all intents and purposes, such people are Satan-worshippers.
People naturally want to do all sorts of ridiculous things which we can't do in a civilized society. Most things you'd probably consider virtues are virtuous and exceptional precisely because they represent man doing something he would not naturally do.

Calling people to behave better than their base natures would dictate is CERTAINLY not "Satanic". A God who does this is not an enemy of man, but rather a friend and father who wants us to better ourselves.

quote:
I swear that if I was one of those Amish parents and that church of insane evil bastards showed up with their signs saying God hates your (dead) daughters I would kill as many of them as possible.
You wouldn't. If you were Amish, you would realize that trading hate for hate only makes the world hateful. You'd be saddened by their conduct, but you'd forgive them and pray for them. Believe it or not, at the end of the day I'm quite sure you'd find more peace in handling the situation in their way rather than yours.
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NobleHunter
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I'd like to point out that "amoral atheist" and the "liberal conspiracy" don't actively seek to cause harm the way Fred Phelps and his "church" do. Even NAMBLA thinks, or tries to, that what they advocate is for the benefit of the boys. Of course, their contact with reality is questionable and heavily biased at best.
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Jesse
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The argument could be made that Phelps and his band of freaks are trying to be cruel to be kind.
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0Megabyte
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Paladine said:

"Calling people to behave better than their base natures would dictate is CERTAINLY not "Satanic". A God who does this is not an enemy of man, but rather a friend and father who wants us to better ourselves."

Certainly. Yet that God is different than the God that punishes us for being as He created. That is not the sort of God who, say, causes people to be homosexual then claims that they are sinning, when their very nature, created by God, is to blame. That is not the same God who wishes women to be put under the dominion of men. That is not the same God that demands humans to live an existence without joy, who demands humans to loathe themselves for the very fact that they are humans (which is something they cannot change, as God made them that way!)

The God I worship DOES wish us to go beyond our base natures. Yet do you really think having sex out of the human-created institution of marriage (created, at least partly, for the sake of property rights) is a base part of human nature?

Bigotry is the base part of human nature. Hating others because they are different, and trying to have them, if not harmed, at least put down, that is the source of far too much evil. The idea of the Other, who is your enemy and must be destroyed, has caused far too much pain. Are you really gonna say that teenagers having sex when they were designed to start having sex is as base as the hatred which causes people to firebomb abortion clinics, or enforces Sharia law which treats women like cattle?

You may disagree, of course. But I care about humans, and what is good for humanity.

NAMBLA, a rediculous organization with disturbing goals, is culturally abhorrent, yes. But would you say the ACLU is abhorrent for supporting their right to speak? Would you say, then, that the ideals of liberty, of free speech, is abhorrent, because it applies to those whose views you find abhorrent?

Not saying the laws should change to do what NAMBLA wants. Hell no. They're insane, from my perspective. But they have a right to... exist. Not act upon what they claim, but exist. If evidence appears (hypothetically, for I do not know whether it does or does not exist) that shows them to have acted upon it? By all means, get rid of em.

And no, those who do evil are not just Christians. It's all bigots. Which includes a vocal subset of Christians in this country. Like the bastard that this thread is about, for example.

I don't care what religion you are if you're a bigot. That person is still the source of much human evil. At least the kind that causes genocide and oppression. At least the kind that causes large scale harm. Jim Crow laws, the killing of minorities, the Holocaust.

In the face of that, allowing gay marriage is at least benign, if not an absolutely good! For it has only positive benefits, at least in this world. The next world can rot. I'm here, and I care about improving THIS one. THAT is what's important. And it will not be improved by enforcing a morality but instead by allowing people the freedom and liberty to be themselves.

I hope you are satisfied with the extension, Paladine. For I did not intend to attack all Christians. (I AM one, after all!) Perhaps I am bigoted against bigotry. Then again, I'm human, and the potential for evil exists within me as much as any other person.

Yet people like this man Phelps make me sick. He is the worst kind of human. The sort that causes genocide and oppression and harm to humanity.

The sort that we must weed out if we are to have a future. Or at least keep marginalized.

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TommySama
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"The God I worship DOES wish us to go beyond our base natures. Yet do you really think having sex out of the human-created institution of marriage (created, at least partly, for the sake of property rights) is a base part of human nature? "

Uh, so you think a basic part of human nature is to meet somebody, learn to love them, and than be ordained by your tribal leader before banging?


"Yet people like this man Phelps make me sick. He is the worst kind of human. The sort that causes genocide and oppression and harm to humanity.

The sort that we must weed out if we are to have a future. Or at least keep marginalized."

Rationalizing the brutal murder or suppression of people who have points of view you find appalling.

Almost sounds exactly like everyone else who advocates killing people for their life style.


Congratulations, 0mega, you really dodged the bullet on glaring hypocrisy on that one!

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KnightEnder
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Depending on my medication Paladine. Without it I derive immense satisfaction after committing righteous violence. (Have you ever just let go and beat the hell out of a skin head or three after they were picking on and persecuting a weaker black kid?) And I can't think of too many more righteous acts of violence than severely beating a man that is insulting my murdered daughter. I'm sure the Amish people are better people than I am. But there it is.

It might be wrong, but it is what I would do.

Jesus is coming back as a warrior, right?

KE

[ October 08, 2006, 02:50 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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KnightEnder
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That said:

What do y'all think of the radio host who gave them time on the air to keep them from going to the funeral? Was he right? Or negotiating with terrorists?

KE

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0Megabyte
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Tommy, you misunderstand the meaning of the word base.

Not basic. Base. In the negative sense. It was a rhetorical question asking whether that was a base nature of mankind.

Also: Rationalizing brutal murder? Where did I ever say that guy should be killed? I was talking about the hatred, man. After all that talking about killing people because of disagreements being wrong, did you really think I mean KILLING?

Apparently you did. Ahh. Yes, comparing me to them, great work.

Alright, I repent. Let's listen to them, and follow their advice, and while we're at it, institute Shari'ah law, or it's fundamentalist Christian equivalent. It'll be the last act of freedom of speech ever to happen in this country, and what a noble one!

Please.

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0Megabyte
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Hmm. That's a tough question. I think it's rather... disgusting.

yet, nonetheless, that's the guy's choice. It's not like it would be right to... censor the guy just because he's a monster. (Unlike what Tommy apparently thinks I feel is right.)

Anyway, KE... I dunno. He wasn't doing something really good. But then again, did his actions really keep them from protesting the funeral?

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TommySama
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Um, you stated it pretty explicitly, omega:

"The sort that we must weed out if we are to have a future."


"Apparently you did. Ahh. Yes, comparing me to them, great work."

What was I supposed to do when you suggest 'weeding' these people out? Very open minded of you.


"Not basic. Base. In the negative sense. It was a rhetorical question asking whether that was a base nature of mankind. "

Oh, I see. So you think sex with anyone you want to have it with, just whenever, just because the mood strikes is perfectly okay? And you began that rhetorical question by assuming things about Paladines opinion, very nice.

I mean really, what a gem, you are talking to a Catholic, so he must think that sex outside of marriage is a "vulgar" act, tits to you, my friend.

Edited to add:

"Alright, I repent. Let's listen to them, and follow their advice, and while we're at it, institute Shari'ah law, or it's fundamentalist Christian equivalent. It'll be the last act of freedom of speech ever to happen in this country, and what a noble one! "

Or, you could pull your head out of your ass and-
A.) remember there will always be lunatics in the world, who must be tolerated
B.) consider that cool logic, freedom of speech, and love will win out over hate mongering.

Perhaps thats even what you meant by 'weeding out', but usually weeding out has a different connotation.

[ October 08, 2006, 03:12 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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TommySama
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"What do y'all think of the radio host who gave them time on the air to keep them from going to the funeral? Was he right? Or negotiating with terrorists?"

Probably a very patient guy to actually deal with them. Kind of like sacrificing himself for the families.

Egads to him.


"Hmm. That's a tough question. I think it's rather... disgusting.

yet, nonetheless, that's the guy's choice. It's not like it would be right to... censor the guy just because he's a monster. (Unlike what Tommy apparently thinks I feel is right.) "

I don't see how it's disgusting. He's just putting these guys on air where he will probably tear their stupid philosophy apart instead of them waving their little signs around their daughters funeral.

God forbid somebody give these people air time so everyone can hear how freaking insane these people are.

[ October 08, 2006, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: TommySama ]

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hobsen
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The Amish are a lot more sophisticated than Fred Phelps:
quote:
However, no one can predict with certainty how anyone would really react to an absolutely unprecedented crisis such as described above. Emotions as well as thoughts are involved and the situation is personalized.
While the Amish are here referring to a situation in which someone confronts a desperate criminal, I am not sure insulting a recently murdered daughter would be completely safe. An Amish father might very well end up acting pretty much like KnightEnder, and his church might find that excusable considering the provocation.
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TommySama
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KE, why did Phelps and his congregation feel it necessary to lambast these people? Because they are Amish?
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0Megabyte
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Tommy: I'm a Catholic, dude! And I don't know anything about Paladine's religion. Nothing.

Don't make assumptions about my motives. Clearly you know about his beliefs more than I do, and much less about my own. That's okay, we all make such mistakes.

Sorry, it seems we're both speaking of... extremes, when it comes to sex. Either all or nothing, so to speak. However that was not my view. I WAS arguing against nothing... but your claim I was arguing for all was also incorrect. Be careful... you bash me for assuming Paladine's view, and then you go and do the same to me!

I don't believe having sex is one of humanity's baser natures. Others may disagree, but it's certainly a hell of a lot less dangerous than bigotry and, you know, hatred. That's base.

Oh, and, I agree: saying "weeding out" was the incorrect phrase, and gave a slightly harsher connotation than I really intended. For that and that alone, I apologize.

That viewpoint, however, needs to be ripped to shreds. Legitimately invalidated.

Oh, and, I do know there'll always be lunatics in the world.

However, there is no guarantee logic, freedom of speech, and love will win out. None at all. It seems, in fact, that things are slowly going the opposite way in this country.

And it's happened plenty of times in other parts of the world. There's nothing absolute about the advancement of such liberal ideals. There's nothing inevitable about them. It's a fight, and a fight good people can't afford to lose.

My words may not have been the best, but you ARE incorrect as to my meaning. I hope to clarify a bit.

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Paladine
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quote:
Are you really gonna say that teenagers having sex when they were designed to start having sex is as base as the hatred which causes people to firebomb abortion clinics, or enforces Sharia law which treats women like cattle?
No. I'm saying that your argument that only a wicked God would punish people for doing things they naturally want to do is a bit absurd. Many a child rapist naturally has a desire to rape children. Many a murderer naturally has a desire to murder. My point isn't that these behaviors are morally similar to any type of sexual behavior. My point is that these are all things people naturally want to do, and that the application of your framework would render rape and murder absolutely fine in many cases. That may be your belief, but I wouldn't care to share such a world with you.

quote:
You may disagree, of course. But I care about humans, and what is good for humanity.
I don't. I hate humans. And puppies.

quote:
NAMBLA, a rediculous organization with disturbing goals, is culturally abhorrent, yes. But would you say the ACLU is abhorrent for supporting their right to speak? Would you say, then, that the ideals of liberty, of free speech, is abhorrent, because it applies to those whose views you find abhorrent?
I've written extensively on Constitutional interpretation on these boards; my opinions with respect to the 1st Amendment shouldn't be too hard to discern. But, in response to your question, no, I don't find the ACLU abhorrent for that reason; I find them abhorrent for other reasons.

quote:
In the face of that, allowing gay marriage is at least benign, if not an absolutely good! For it has only positive benefits, at least in this world. The next world can rot. I'm here, and I care about improving THIS one. THAT is what's important.
How can you call yourself a Catholic and say that you care exclusively about this world and that "the next world can rot"? Jesus teaches EXACTLY the opposite. Everything in this world is destined to rot; the next world is eternal. I don't tend to question peoples' self-identification, but you might as well be writing "I'm a Muslim, except I really don't buy the whole Mohammed bit".

I don't want to derail this thread entirely by turning it into our 2 millionth SSM thread, but your argument that SSM will necessarily only have positive effects on this world is a load of crock. I'll refer you to the recent discussion between Jordan and Pete wherein Pete presented problems SSM would cause and Jordan, despite his continued and able support for SSM, conceded that Pete had very legitimate concerns.

quote:
I hope you are satisfied with the extension, Paladine.
Despite the fact that I disagree with virtually all of what you've said, I really am grateful that you've explained your views further.
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jasonr
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quote:
How can you call yourself a Catholic and say that you care exclusively about this world and that "the next world can rot"? Jesus teaches EXACTLY the opposite. Everything in this world is destined to rot; the next world is eternal. I don't tend to question peoples' self-identification, but you might as well be writing "I'm a Muslim, except I really don't buy the whole Mohammed bit".
I just wanted to say that I 100% agree. This part struck me the most about his post. Not to derail the thread, but it baffles me how someone could possibly claim to be Catholic (and therefore, presumably, believe in eternal life after death), but say something like this. To hell with eternity? Only this life matters? If you believe in eternity, then this is the most short-sighted, foolish attitude possible; it's tantamount to cashing in your 401k for a turkey sandwich. If you don't believe in the afterlife, then you're not really Catholic, are you?
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jasonr
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quote:
I don't believe having sex is one of humanity's baser natures. Others may disagree, but it's certainly a hell of a lot less dangerous than bigotry and, you know, hatred. That's base.
Without a clear definition of "base" it's hard to comment, but let me assume that by base you mean "bad" (correct me if I'm wrong).

The problem with your comparison between "sexual activity" and bigotry, is that you are trying to compare a vaguely defined activity with a well-defined one; you are comparing the general with the specific. "Sexual activity" could refer to almost anything, from a 30 year old male having mutually consensual coitus with a 30 year old female, to a 40 year old male anally raping a toddler. In the latter context, I'd say it isn't so clear that this "sexual activity" isn't base, and it's arguably as dangerous as "bigotry" (which is itself a specific manifestation of general intolerance of difference, much like rape can be a specific manifestation of sexual activity)

My point is, you shouldn's compare apples and oranges. My second point is that it's very difficult to find general activities or emotions that are wholly "base". Hatred and intolerance, for example, serve a purpose too. For instance, society hates and is intolerant of NAMBLA, as well as these "Church of Hate" (is that really what their church is called? LOL) Christians. I would be worried if people didn't have hatred for said individuals. On an individual level, hatred may be destructive in most cases, but generalized to society, it's crucial. Even Jesus said (I believe it was Jesus; correct me if I am wrong) to hate sin.

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OrneryMod
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Please, everyone, be careful when discussing other members' personal religious beliefs and/or adherence to the doctrines of their stated affiliations. It is very easy for topics like this to degenerate and become highly personal, and I'm sure no one wants that.
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TommySama
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"I don't. I hate humans. And puppies. "

I guess I was wrong. 0mega's painting you a crazed religious lunatic was accurate.

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0Megabyte
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Okay, sorry for my excesses yesterday. I wasn't trying to give a long, detailed, precise account of what's right and wrong, specifically, with each particular point of contention when it comes to sexuality.

I shouldn't have brought that up, as I regret the fallout of it.

Anyway, I thought the term base was defined well enough already. Apparently, I was in error. I assumed everyone would think of it as, essentially, a form of "bad" to put it simply. Of course, as with most words, the connotations I put on it were more complicated than "bad."

jason: perhaps the comparison was not really good. However, perhaps I should add, and I neglected to mention it because I guess I made a foolish assumption, that when it comes to, say, sexual acts, I DO mean consentual ones! In light of what you said, I'll clarify that. Sorry.

And I'll not respond to attacks on my religious beliefs (which are more complicated, natrually, than the little I shared.) I get enough of that from the Mormon missionaries who are trying to convert me these past few days. Sorry, if I responded, I'd be responding with some rather nasty vitriol. I do not wish to do so.

Yet my philosophy for this world IS to care about humans, and human happiness. Because, even if there IS no afterlife, we have this one. So we should work to make it better. I feel liberty is the major way of that. Also, whether I agree that something's moral or not... whether it's good by way of God should never be the reason something's law or not, in my view. Morality and law need to be separate. There's been too much oppression in the name of religion (here's looking at my own Church!) for me to think it's a good idea.

And Paladine... I hope you were being sarcastic about the human hating. I really do.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"I don't. I hate humans. And puppies. "

put down the bunny...

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TommySama
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"And Paladine... I hope you were being sarcastic about the human hating. I really do."

No he was being serious, couldn't you tell? He made that obvious with his juxtaposition of hating humans with puppies.

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TommySama
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
"I don't. I hate humans. And puppies. "

put down the bunny...

Pip: I know you're not cold hearted, My Dear. I can prove it, I know you can't break the necks of all these baby bunnies.

*Snap*

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KnightEnder
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Tommy they hate everyone.

And yes the Hate Church did not protest the funeral due to the deal they made with the talk show host.

I think he probably did a good thing. Even though I hate the thought of giving those nuts anything.

KE

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TommySama
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"Tommy they hate everyone."

I know, but is there a specific reason they thought this funeral was worth going to?

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Jesse
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I'm guessing...

Lots of cameras?

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Adam Lassek
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quote:
I'm saying that your argument that only a wicked God would punish people for doing things they naturally want to do is a bit absurd. Many a child rapist naturally has a desire to rape children. Many a murderer naturally has a desire to murder.
Gotta call you on that strawman, Paladine. These things are not natural, or base. They are perversions of the norm. When the majority of the population of the world is engaging in these things, then you will have a point.

Sex, on the other hand, is something nearly everyone on the planet does, has done or will do. It is the strongest natural drive in nature, the reason why we are here. Every single ancestor of every single human alive have only one thing in common: they have reproduced. That is base, that is natural.

0Meg's point, and I have come to the same conclusion, is that sexual desire is a natural and important part of the reproductive process and there is no reason at all to shame people for it. Marriage may be a supior way to raise children, but 98% of the time people have sex for fun, not reproduction. If you can have sex responsibly, there's just no need to sweat bullets over it, and feeling constantly guilty about what you are is unhealthy.

EDIT: Okay, it looks like we're all operating under different definitions of the word "base" [Smile] Here's what dictionary.com says:
quote:
1. morally low; without estimable personal qualities; dishonorable; meanspirited; selfish; cowardly.
2. of little or no value; worthless: hastily composed of base materials.
3. debased or counterfeit: an attempt to eliminate the base coinage.
4. characteristic of or befitting an inferior person or thing.

It looks like 0Meg meant to use definitions 1 and 4, in which case your example of the rapists and murderers would be base, but still not natural.

0Meg, I disagree with characterising sex as "base." The Christian attitude of sexual desire being basically sinful and wrong is unhealthy; sex is a natural and vital part of our survival as a species.

[ October 08, 2006, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Adam Lassek ]

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TommySama
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"0Meg's point, and I have come to the same conclusion, is that sexual desire is a natural and important part of the reproductive process and there is no reason at all to shame people for it."

Except that, when used irresponsibly (which it usually is when applied 'naturally') it can spread disease, hurt people, cause envy and frustration and lead to all sorts of pain.

I'm not advocating God sending me to hell for banging my girlfriend. It just makes sense for Him to claim you should be responsible sexually. But I agree that, nowadays, sex can be taken much more lightly given sexual contraceptives.

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Adam Lassek
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@TommySama:

And the very next sentence, which you have editted out, explicitely said:

quote:
Marriage may be a supior way to raise children, but 98% of the time people have sex for fun, not reproduction. If you can have sex responsibly, there's just no need to sweat bullets over it, and feeling constantly guilty about what you are is unhealthy.

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KnightEnder
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Tommy, just because they knew there would be major media coverage. And they are sick. The sicker the act they can do the better they feel.


On the Sex discussion:

I say sex is a great thing. And philosophically/theoretically I am all for free love/sex. However, I am concerned about the negative affects it seems to have on women. I don't know if it is because they can't separate sex and love or what? I have seen studies that say womens brains create a certain substance when having sex with a man that bonds them to that man. Even if they don't have an orgasm (they are so different from men). I don't know if that has risen to the level of scientific fact yet, but it cooresponds to my life experience and observations. Why else would smart women stay with loser guys?

Any of our ladies care to enlighten us, please?

Other than that I think the demonization of sex is just one more way for religious organizations to control their sheep. Got to know who's kids are who's so you can make them grow up and tithe to the correct church, neh?

And Tommmy, as a gentlemen felon and a friend I think I should advise you not to use the term "banging" in reference to your girlfriend, unless she's into that kinda of talk. "Making Love" is too icky, but having sex or being with her are perfctly acceptable substitutes.

Also you probably shouldn't say in her presence; "I'm gonna tap that ass!" or "I'm gonna nail that tonight!" or, "I'm gonna tear that up" or "I'm gonna be knee deep in that tonight!", etc.

However, I'm old and still believe in chivalry so I could be out of touch.

KE

[ October 08, 2006, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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0Megabyte
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Thanks, Adam Lassak, for understanding what I was getting at.

Besides that, I don't think sex is "base" either, as I said in my... second post on here? Yes, the second one.

But yes, those were the definitions of base I was going for, too. Such things WOULD include the bigotry that I was finding loathesome.

To Tommy: Well, sex being a natural and good thing is different from doing it intelligently or not. To have sex in a stupid manner will of course lead to negative consequences. Just like every other good thing. (no, I'm not arguing against too much of a good thing, either. [Big Grin] )

There should be no reason to shame people for it. Yet of course it makes sense to be responsible, and to not act intelligently about it is going to have some bad consequences.

We don't seem to be disagreeing much if at all on that, Tommy. Which is good.

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Paladine
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quote:
Gotta call you on that strawman, Paladine. These things are not natural, or base. They are perversions of the norm. When the majority of the population of the world is engaging in these things, then you will have a point.
Reread what I wrote; I think you must have misunderstood my point. Regardless of whether most people naturally feel a desire to rape or murder, it's virtually beyond dispute that some people do. Some people are born that way.

According to 0Meg's argument (which essentially boils down to "If you want to do anything, it's because God put that desire in you, and he's a wicked God if he demands that you not follow your desires"), then people born with a desire to do horrible things are justified in doing them. As I said, if he's of that opinion, he's certainly entitled to it.

What "the majority of the population of the world is engaging in" is utterly besides the point when considering the individual nature of sin.

-----------------------------------------------

0Meg-

I didn't mean to attack your beliefs; I did mean to attack the label you put on them. If you believe that people should focus exclusively on what's good for us in the here and now, and not worry about whatever might or might not come afterwards, that's a belief system I can understand. Many people subscribe to that point of view.

But it's surely not Catholic; it's utterly inconsistent with the doctrine and teachings of the Church. What you're doing here is tantamount to calling yourself an anarchist while saying government should control most aspects of peoples' lives. It wouldn't be an attack upon your beliefs for a real anarchist to say "Dude, why call yourself an anarchist if you want massive government?"

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0Megabyte
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KE, it's not just for the sake of the church. Originally, it was for the sake of property rights. You have to know whose kid is whose so your resources don't go to someone else's kid, and your land goes to your OWN child, not someone elses.

Thank God for paternity testing.

But no, I think it's more a... social thing first, before religious, I think. Not to say religion doesn't take control of it and turn it into a sin.

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KnightEnder
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You're right, OMeg. I was suprised to learn that MEN invented marriage. For just the reasons you state.

KE

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0Megabyte
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Paladine: It is more complicated than that.

And, as with most people, what I would say depends on my mood. lol, I'm human and thus subject to all our flaws and illogical thinking.

I do think we should focus on the here and now, and not just wait for the better life to come. That means trying to deal with the evils in the world, and that means acting with virtue, and acting for the good of others.

It doesn't mean shaming them for having sex, and enjoying it, as our bodies are designed to do, as an example. All the "masturbation is a sin!" junk is, to me, just that, junk. Contraceptives are sinful? No, I disagree.

I don't know for certain what God wants. If God wishes us to live a Puritan existance, I don't know it. I cannot know that. But what I CAN do, and what we ALL should do, is act towards the benefit of people, and allow them the choice of how they are to live (provided they are not harming others.) Give them freedom, do not interfere, and in the end, God will sort us all out.

Of course, I don't believe that God is a being that will send all those who have not had a chance to learn that He exists into an eternal hell just because they don't believe. I do not believe that God is disgusted by the human sexual drive. All the laws there, as far as I can tell, were made by men, not by God. I don't believe God is there to lay down the law in such a draconian sense.

And I could go on with my beliefs for awhile. I hope I didn't contradict myself, but if I did, it's because I'm still struggling everyday to understand myself, and what I believe. And because different parts of me believe different things. But then again, I'm human, and it's hard to be perfectly logical and still human. I'll leave that up to God.

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Adam Lassek
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quote:
According to 0Meg's argument (which essentially boils down to "If you want to do anything, it's because God put that desire in you, and he's a wicked God if he demands that you not follow your desires"), then people born with a desire to do horrible things are justified in We aredoing them. As I said, if he's of that opinion, he's certainly entitled to it.
You are generalizing to an unwarranted degree. We are speaking on basic instincts built into our species, such as the desire to reproduce. Rape is not a built-in instinct, it is a socially unacceptable method of fullfilling an instinct. Murder happens for too many different reasons to be useful in this discussion. I am not talking about fulfilling every desire that may be in your heart, merely the ones that have been placed there through biology.
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