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Author Topic: I told you so
Everard
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Faith based groups

quote:
The US government has given $10.9 million to Food for the Hungry, a faith-based development organization, to reach deep into the arid mountains of northern Kenya to provide training in hygiene, childhood illnesses, and clean water. The group has brought all that, and something else that increasingly accompanies US-funded aid programs: r egular church service and prayer.
quote:
nd in seeking to help such groups obtain more contracts, Bush has systematically eliminated or weakened rules designed to enforce the separation of church and state.

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KnightEnder
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Starve or repent, Kenyans!

KE

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Jesse
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Funny.

Hezbollah offers services to everyone in their districts of operation, regardless of religion.

Why, oh why, are we losing the PR war?

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0Megabyte
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Because we areh't hungry for it. (forgive the pun.)
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The Drake
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Yes, I've seen HizbAllah delivering meals-on-wheels to Jewish settlers...

Oh wait, no I haven't.

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
Hezbollah offers services to everyone in their districts of operation, regardless of religion.
I thought conversion to another religion meant death in their districts of operation.
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pickled shuttlecock
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Can someone show me where those receiving aid were required to attend worship services or practice religion in any way?
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Liberal
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Doesn't matter if those people are required to convert to attend, those chairities are using government money to hold religious services when they said they wouldn't do it. It's against the law.

[ October 09, 2006, 03:23 AM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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Everard
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part 2
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hobsen
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President Bush has committed so many other atrocities this one adds little to his total, and making Christian converts in Kenya only slightly resembles setting up a national church in the United States.

But this remark by a Clinton appointee bothers me:
quote:
US foreign-aid programs, however, began after World War II for the purely secular aim of winning friends for the United States. Now, aid packages and equipment purchased with government funds are stamped with the words ``From the American People" so beneficiaries can see the fruits of US generosity.

``The point of foreign assistance is national security," said Harriet Babbitt, who was USAID's second-ranking official during the last years of the Clinton administration.

However laudable such humanitarian assistance may be, it will most likely do little or nothing to win over enemies of the United States. And furthering Christian evangelization in Africa will increase the perception that President Bush is heading a Christian crusade against Islam, and so perhaps increase terrorist attacks. So we should provide such assistance, and through Christian organizations if that is most efficient, but without glossing over the fact that such initiatives actually decrease U.S. security. Remembering every rosary makes a terrorist should help keep such programs within reasonable bounds.

[ October 09, 2006, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: hobsen ]

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jasonr
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quote:
However laudable such humanitarian assistance may be, it will most likely do little or nothing to win over enemies of the United States. And furthering Christian evangelization in Africa will increase the perception that President Bush is heading a Christian crusade against Islam, and so perhaps increase terrorist attacks. So we should provide such assistance, and through Christian organizations if that is most efficient, but without glossing over the fact that such initiatives actually decrease U.S. security. Remembering every rosary makes a terrorist should help keep such programs within reasonable bounds.
Oy vey... a Christian Crusade against Islam? Church services with food aid leading to terrorism? What planet do you live on? Not earth, apparently.

I'm not crazy about the idea of government sponsored food aid being bundled into church services. But like Microsoft, so long as the groups give the people the choice (i.e. they can get the food without the church) I see nothing wrong with it.

quote:
Doesn't matter if those people are required to convert to attend, those chairities are using government money to hold religious services when they said they wouldn't do it. It's against the law.
Which law?
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Everard
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First amendment.
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Everard
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"I'm not crazy about the idea of government sponsored food aid being bundled into church services. But like Microsoft, so long as the groups give the people the choice (i.e. they can get the food without the church) I see nothing wrong with it."

I'm kinda ridiculously unhappy about my tax dollars being used to pay so the church can perform that service.

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LoverOfJoy
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I thought it fell under "general welfare" [Wink]
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G2
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
First amendment.

For those never having seen it:
quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
It would seem you want to modify it so that instead of freedom of religion you would have freedom from religion.
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Wayward Son
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Well, to the U.S. government, all religions are equal. It's just that this makes some more equal than others. [Wink]
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KnightEnder
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"It would seem you want to modify it so that instead of freedom of religion you would have freedom from religion."

Isn't that the same thing.

KE

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javelin
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Not by any logic course I've taken.
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KnightEnder
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If I'm free from any one religion then I am free from them all.
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javelin
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You are free from practicing any religion - the state is not allowed to force you to follow any religion. That doesn't mean that the state is required to force everyone to follow no religion.

It's a logical fallacy to equate the two.

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kenmeer livermaile
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"Yes, I've seen HizbAllah delivering meals-on-wheels to Jewish settlers..."

ahem bizarre hallucinations are *my* bailiwick today

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Everard
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"If I'm free from any one religion then I am free from them all," does not equate to "the state is required to force everyone to follow no religion."

[ October 09, 2006, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: Everard ]

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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by Everard:
"If I'm free from any one religion then I am free from them all," does not equate to "the state is required to force everyone to follow no religion."

Depends on intent, doesn't it?
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javelin
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Let me attempt to clarify.

In logic, saying something "is" something else requires a one to one equivalency.

Therefore, it is correct to say "Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion", but not "Freedom of religion IS freedom from religion." The second statement narrows the domain to "freedom from the religion". The first allows for other things to be in the domain such as "practicing Hinduism" and "practicing the Muslim faith".

Does that make more sense?

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Everard
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Yes, it does depend on intent. Are you saying that you were speculating on KE's intent?

I understood what you were saying, Javelin. I also noticed that you were breaking an ornery rule, and tried to point it out.

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javelin
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[Big Grin] Funny, Ev.
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Everard
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Its not supposed to be ajoke. If you're laughing, its a problem.
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javelin
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That's unfortunate.
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DonaldD
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"freedom of religion" I love the way G2 quoted the 1st, then went on to throw this old gem (with all its semantic baggage) into the fray. The term "freedom of religion" exists nowhere in the written constitution.

If y'all are going to debate the meaning of the establishment clause, I say stop pussy-footing around. Dive right in. Grab the bull by the horns. **** or get off the crapper. I know, I know, you've been there, done that, but it seems like the time is ripe for a rerun...

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KnightEnder
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Okay.

Giving money (tax payer money, government money) to A religion is defacto recognition and establishment of THAT religion.

KE

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0Megabyte
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Unless you give money to every religion equally. And then even THAT would be against the Constitution, and would be unfair to all the atheists out there.

But yeah, KE. That crap is unconstitutional. At least, it is by the way I read the First Amendment.

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pickled shuttlecock
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quote:
Originally posted by Liberal:
Doesn't matter if those people are required to convert to attend, those chairities are using government money to hold religious services when they said they wouldn't do it. It's against the law.

I was referring to the straw man argument developing at the head of this thread. Fortunately, it looks like it's petered out.

Thanks for caring about my reading comprehension, though. [Big Grin]

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Liberal
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What straw man? The straw man here, if any, is this ridiculous assumption that this is the only aid that they'd get so we should be grateful for it.


Money = "respecting...establishment"

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LoverOfJoy
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quote:
What straw man?
I think it's a bit implied here:

quote:
Starve or repent, Kenyans!
and here:

quote:
Funny.

Hezbollah offers services to everyone in their districts of operation, regardless of religion.

Why, oh why, are we losing the PR war?


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pickled shuttlecock
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Yup. That's the straw man, alright. Funny how, after I posted, he disappeared.

Not that I'm claiming credit or anything. I just think it's funny. I'm actually laughing my butt off, just so you know.

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