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Author Topic: At Grandmothers Funeral Preacher Gives Me Another Reason to Hate Religion
KnightEnder
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We had funeral services for my grandmother tonight. And for the most part the preacher said nice words and I sang along and murmured the prayers. My father gave a beautiful eulogy that I am proud to say I helped him write. She was such a great person (and not just because she's gone), that it was easy to say nice things about her).

These last weeks sitting beside my grandmothers death bed, holding her hand and praying, has made me REALY want to believe in an afterlife. I've even agree to go to church to be with my family so we can see more of each other. Even though they know I'm not religious. Even though they know exactly how I feel about religion; they asked and I said we'd come. But then...

The Preacher at grandma's funeral began to speak.Among some beautiful words he said this: For those of you who are Christians when you walk by the casket for the final viewing know that you will see her again soon. For those of you who aren't Christians take a good last look at this great woman's mortal remains, because it will be the last time you see her again, ever.

He might as well have stuck a knife in my gut. And my two sons who were both sitting beside me and crying tensed up and became very angry. They both immediately comprehended the ramifications of what this man was saying. He just told them that because they were evil or stupid they would never see their great-grandmother again.

Jake my youngest stopped crying and got as mad as I've ever seen him short of violence. He's so easy going it was surprising to see how livid he became. My oldest John V simply clenched his jaw and stared at the floor. However, they are both good boys who wouldn't do anything to upset the people they love and so they said nothing. I took a deep breath and leaned back in the pew. Unlike them I've seen and heard this kind of insult and threat so many times that I am not surprised. Disgusted and dismayed yes, but not surprised. So, I said nothing.

Or maybe I'm just a 'good boy' too? Maybe that's why I didn't react when this man who didn't know my grandmother, and doesn't know me or my sons, told us we would never ever again see this woman that we've all loved for all our lives (almost 40 years in my case), because there is something wrong with us?

In reality I and they didn't say or do anything because we were in mourning for a lady we all loved and who loved us. And because we were surrounded by family and friends who were hurting too and we wouldn't do anything to increase their pain. In essence; we turned the other cheek.

But can you believe this guy decided to take this emotional moment to threaten us, and make a sales pitch for Christianity?

And it was wrong on so many levels. What if we had been Jews or Muslims or some other non-Christian people? Not to mention atheist/agnostic who follow science and know that there are many dimensions and so much we don't know that there IS a possibility that we might be reunited with our loved ones after we die!

And these last weeks by my grandmothers death bed had brought me closer to religion than ever. I really love the idea of my grandma being reunited with my grandpa after all these years apart. He died 56 years ago, and she never stop loving or missing him. (I tried to say that during my time to speak but ending up crying so hard I couldn't really get the words out. We were very close.) I'd give anything if all my love ones could be together for eternity in Heaven. I am a family kind of guy. I, I, me, a man that has been an atheist most of his life was actually considering 'trying' to bring religion into my life. I was actually swaying. I wanted it to be true so bad. And then this guy goes and says that.

How could he say such a thing? It was ill-conceived, opportunistic, and cruel. Is that what Christianity is about? I don't think so, but that is what I run into every time I get around organized religion.

KE

[ October 15, 2006, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Liberal
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Religion thrives on emotional highs and lows, religion in essence is emotional-crux predation. You might have known this already but it sure takes on a fresh meaning when its happening to you and your family, doesn't it?
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vulture
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Horsecrap Liberal. At least in my experience. The preacher was an idiot to say something so crassly offensive at a time like that, but even those who share such beliefs are generally wise enough not to shove them down your throat at such times. There are always a few muppets who think it is the ideal time to remind people of eternal consequences etc., but amongst those I know, they are a minority, and generally hae plenty of other 'issues' of their own.

I'd agree that this example is essentially emotional predation, and I don't think it had any place in christianity.

Condolonces on your loss KE, and well done on not punching the guy...

[ October 15, 2006, 06:11 AM: Message edited by: vulture ]

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DonaldD
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My condolences, KE. Obviously it's not the time to debate the niceties of what this fool said, but it's a truism that there are jerks in every job.
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LoverOfJoy
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THe preacher was an idiot and a jerk and your sons showed great maturity that day in controlling themselves for the sake of loved ones around them. Even as a christian I would have been appalled to hear that at my grandmother's funeral. I would hope I could control myself, too, although I might have spent the rest of the funeral coming up with nasty comments to say to him afterwards.
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Storm Saxon
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What a jackass that preacher was.

While I am proud of you and your sons for showing restraint, I encourage you to write a polite letter to the preacher letting him know of how you feel about what he said.

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Everard
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My condolences, KE.

Totally innapropriate of the preacher. You showed that people don't need religion to be better people then theists [Smile]

In a way, I am reminded of a time when I went to a catholic mass to support several of my friends who were being confirmed. There were many family and friends of the confirmation class in the pews that day, and the priest gave a sermon about bringing jesus to the "heathens." It didn't seem appropriate, to me, for the preist to go out of his way, on that day with a large audience from outside his congregation, to give the sermon he did.

Sometimes, when we have an audience, we speak about something that has been on our minds... and if we're not careful, we can end up doing so in a totally innapropriate way.

Storm is right. Send a polite letter to him explaining how hurt you were, at this time and this plae, by the talk he gave. Remind him that the time of death is already a difficult one, and that true compassion demands we recognize this, even when it means laying aside our own beliefs for a few days.

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Jesse
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KE-

I would suggest that you tell your boys they are welcome to write him a letter explaining how he made them feel, and how innapropriate his comments were. Not require them too, just let them know they can.


Let them know you're doing it too, role modeling and all [Wink]

I am really, really sorry that this asshat decided to turn your Grandmothers funeral into an opportunity to attack people.

Maybe he won't do it again if he knows how it affects people.

[ October 15, 2006, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Jesse ]

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0Megabyte
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No, no, KE... this isn't a reason to hate religion.

It's a reason to hate humanity. Or at least that guy.

But yes, much of what I said was on the thread where you first mentioned it... so I don't have a lot to say about it again.

Religion and religious belief are as varied as humanity itself. I'd not be surprised if the priest I'm closest to at the moment would call that guy at the minimum uncivilized, in the moderate case a pre-modern barbarian (his phrasing, not mine), and at worst a total asshole who doesn't belong at that job.

I show myself as sweeping and generalizing and judging as he does by saying this, but he doesn't desergve to be a priest in... whatever religion he's a part of?

But anyway, one last thing: He's more likely to go to hell than you and your sons, John. Unless God IS a bastard, in which case those who believe in Him should rebel and spite him every way possible.

[ October 15, 2006, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: 0Megabyte ]

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Liberal
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It is always confusing to see those moments where people say the various churches and their representatives should "keep quiet" out of 'tact' or 'practicality.' They are imperfect and they've been given what they are told is perfect doctrine, and that causes mistakes, corruption and stupidity on scale that dwarfs this. But it is only (besides huge disasters) when people's emotions are truly invested and then trampled on do people really take notice.

[ October 15, 2006, 02:54 PM: Message edited by: Liberal ]

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RickyB
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Sorry, J. I'm proud for you of how your boys behaved. I personally would have told him off in private after, but I respect your self control in not wanting to go there. <hug>

At my mom's funeral there was this scuzzbag selling "anti-evil eye" red wrist bands or some such focking pseudo-kaballa primitive crap. Or handing them around. Point is I told him once politely "thank you, no, please go away now", and he simply walked away from *me* and continued to walk around our funeral party. I told him to go away again and he ignored me again. It wasn't until it became clear that I would indeed physically hurt him in the iommediate future did he go away. I had to be restrained for that split second till his aninmal preservation instinct kicked in.

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Richard Dey
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This examplifies the difference between christlike thinking and the merely christian.

A real man attacks with his fists; a girlyman like this attacks with a viprous tongue.

Teach your boys to defend their religious space from his.

Inviting somebody to dinner, and then attacking them, is not christlike hospitality -- and that pastor ought to learn that lesson before he creates more enemies of christianity.

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Richard Dey
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Hey, send him a copy of our comments. Let him comprehend chaos theory. It's just this lack of christlike modesty, this rude christian rrogance, that is giving all those who would follow Christ a really rotten reputation around the world.
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KnightEnder
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Turns out He is the preacher from the school my dad coach's at (huge church, not like the two 30,k plus churches we have her but pretty big), so I can't say anything for fear of upsetting my father, more than he is already upset (which is about as upset as someone can be). I guess I could send him an anonymous note. Not really my style, but given the situation, and doing it mostly in hope that he won't do this to some other family (as someone suggested) I think I probably will.

Thanks for your support. The religious people here are all that I have to remind me that He is not representative of All religious people.

KE

[ October 15, 2006, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Makes ya wanna pull a pistol, aim it at the preacher, and say, "Well then, guess I won't be seeing you again either. When you get there, tell her this for me, willya? Tell her I didn't waste any bullets, and I never pulled a gun unless I'd decided to use it. OK?"

*sigh* that was a pleasant revenge fantasy, yes?

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winkey151
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KE,
First I would like to extend my deepest sympathy to you and your family for such a great loss. I will keep your family and especially your children in my prayers. Let them know that there is a Grandma who lives in Virginia who believes that they are going to see their Great Grandma again, no matter what anyone says.

The reason I believe this is because I know that God heard their Great Grandma's prayers... and I know that she prayed that she would get to spend eternity with them. The same goes for you KE.

It never ceases to amaze me what stupid and insensitive things some humans can say and do. (And being a man of the cloth doesn't exempt anyone from being in that group.) I still find it difficult to have respect for a few people who did choice things at some of my loved ones funerals but just remember, what happened was a stupid thing that a human did. He is the one not to be respected and he is the one who will have to stand before God some day and give an account of how he offended your little children.

Don't let what was said taint the memory of your Grand Mother. Take this time to mourn for her and celebrate her life. Don't waste any of your energy on such an inconsiderate human being .

Know that I am thinking of you all. Please let me know if there is anything I can do for you.

Winkey

[ October 15, 2006, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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Zyne
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Oh yea I can so believe they did that. The believers in the group didn't see anything wrong with that kind of exploitation of the dead. You want to believe because it would feel good to believe. When the grief is less fresh, then you will find out what you really feel.

As I see it, they cut at you and yours when they knew they could do so safely. To make themselves feel better. With no regard for anyone else.

Reality is, that corpse was not her. She's gone. You didn't see *her* that day, you saw a monument of remains. Now, she lives only in your memory, only in your ideas about how to be a good person and live a good life.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Without the damned, how else could Baptists et al convince us that Heaven was worth denying ourselves in this world?

Soul-saving religion is leveraged on the torments of the damned i hell. Dead people are their basic business asset.

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hobsen
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Your grandmother is fine, KnightEnder. Maybe she would have enjoyed a memorable funeral? But I am sorry your father was disappointed in what he hoped would be a perfect tribute.

Anyway, you deserve credit for trying to get closer to your family at this difficult time. You did your part, whatever the outcome.
quote:
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

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Wayward Son
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If I were you, KE (which is literally true, since I would never do this myself [Smile] ), the next time I'd see this guy, I'd shake his hand, remind him what he said, explain how it hurt you and your boys, and tell him you'll see him in Hell. [Razz]

Either that, to tell him the best part of him was left on his mother's bedsheets. [Big Grin]

Jerk!

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cperry
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I'm sorry to hear this, KE, but I'm not surprised. I have also heard messages such as these at numerous funerals. To be honest, most were at Southern Baptist churches. I don't know that I've ever heard this kind of message at a Methodist or Presbyterian service, though that is not to say it doesn't happen. But I bet it's more common at fundamentalist churches than at other Christian churches.

And that's the real difference. Surprisingly, at least to me, most non-fundamentalist Christians do see many ways to heaven and God, while fundamentalists -- this should be obvious -- only see one route. And in their defense (my best friend is married to a fundamentalist Southern Baptist minister, so I have a little bit of insight here), I think most do this out of a true belief that everyone who believes differently from them will indeed burn in hell, so it's only a deeply convicted attempt to help people avoid eternal damnation.

Yes, it was hurtful to you from your perspective, but this person may truly believe that he had a chance to save some souls and therefore would do what he thought was necessary to save them. If you explain that to your kids and try to remember it yourself, it does make it a bit easier to handle. When I would ask my dad if we were going to hell because we didn't take everything in the Bible literally, he said, "God gave us brains. He expects us to use them to think. I can't believe in a God who would send you to burn in hell for thinking. Nor can I believe in a God who would send anyone who seeks the divine in a different way -- say Judaism, Islam, Hinduism -- to hell. My bet is we'll all see each other in heaven and it'll all make sense. But in the meantime, try to understand the intent behind the message of the fundamentalists. It is usually borne of caring."

I don't think you ought to write any letters. Even if he was doing this out of a genuine concern for lost souls, he's only going to think that the Devil's got your soul and you need more saving. He might even turn it into a Sunday sermon. It's just tough to convince these folks to stop being so literal.

But again, not all Christians are like this. Just as not all Muslims want to kill non-believers in the name of Allah.

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LinuxFreakus
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Pretty much every time I've ever attended a religious service I've heard comments along these lines from the religious figure who was leading the service.

It is not always quite as overt as it was in this case, but it is always just enough to make me wonder why anyone puts up with this crap and keeps feeling the need to belong to the religion if the leaders are promoting such needless gibberish.

[ October 16, 2006, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: LinuxFreakus ]

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Adam Masterman
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At the risk of starting a cyber-melee...

There seems to be two issues here. Everyone agrees that this guy was a jerk for SAYING what he said. But obviously we are divided about him privately believing that, since its basically what Christians believe (some, anyway).

Speaking to the latter, I find it a very unsatisfying idea. Its one of the reasons I never really seriously considered Christianity. I saw a billboard in front of a local church that really illuminated this for me; it said "Life has many choices, death has two. Which is yours?". I actually appreciated the dramatic flair of the blurb, but the idea behind it contradicts common sense. We live in a world of infinite variety and degrees, which somehow get narrowed down to two afterlife extremes? What about the vast majority of people who fall in the middle, deserving neither endless bliss nor eternal torment? Now, obviously I don't KNOW whats going to happen and maybe dualistic theologies are right. But for me it never passed the smell test. Everything I know about nature and reality seems to contradict that kind of simplistic framework. Without evidence to the contrary, it seems natural to assume that the next life, if there is one, is as complex and varied as this one. I guess what I'm saying is that I hear you (KE) rejecting the premise of this guys statement, and I agree that intuitively, his theology just seems simplistic and wrong. Not that we can ever no for sure (till we die), and no offense to anyone here who does believe that.

I've always felt that theological contortions like limbo arose out of this same impulse: the idea that only two extreme afterlife options just wasn't appropriate. What about still births? Noble pagans? The fact that the patch jobs, like the limbo idea, are somewhat absurd speaks to me about the basic weakness of theological dualism. Again, just my opinion, and no offense intended.

Adam

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javelin
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Might be a good thread to start: "What is Heaven & Hell, anyway?", Adam. That may allow us to discuss the issue without the emotional charge that this thread brings to it.
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Mormegil
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There are people who are racist against, say, Hispanics, because they got mugged by a Hispanic.

If someone brought that here, no one would respect it.

So why can we say it about religion?

Okay, this is not a great analogy. A religion is something you *believe*, not something you *are*. Verbs versus adjectives.

And, of course, it's a different story when a religious *leader* is evil, as long as you limit your disdain for the people who directly support said person, not everyone who happens to share some opinions.

But, it still makes a point about generalizations.

If someone who believes in God does something evil, that's no more an indictment against me than if someone who likes Fiddler on the Roof does something evil. The opinions we share did not cause his evil; the very fact that I have some of them too and am not evil is proof positive of that...

Anyway, yeah, it's wrong to say such a thing at a funeral, even if it's true. For example, when my mother died I knew that her spirit went to Tartarus, and would, following the Day of Judgment, end up in Hell. If you think that's a fun thing to believe, you'd be wrong. But I could not let the fact that I didn't *want* it to be true stop me from acknowledging that it *was* true.

However, do you think I said anything about this to my father? Grieving over the loss of his wife, it would have been wrong to discus her eternal future, because I *know* that it would only have caused pain, and done no good whatsoever. So I didn't talk about it with him. It was my own burden.

Think about this though: it's not content of the message that you hated, right? I mean, if you're an atheist then you don't believe in heaven, and you already believe you won't ever see her again. So he wasn't saying anything you didn't already know.

So why did it make you livid? Because it was so utterly *heartless*. You were absolutely right to be angry at someone callously abusing their power for personal gain. (Personal, I say, since knife-in-the-wound words do not glorify God at all, that's for sure.)

Just remember that not all religious people are so cruel.

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0Megabyte
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As a guy who grew up learning about one of those patch jobs (ahh, purgatory) I know what you mean, and for myself, no offense taken, Adam.

You seem to have thought of the core thing which struck me, and changed my viewpoint. In fact, it's pretty much identical.

At a time in the past, I realized that all these other people who believe this differing religions believe it with the same intensity that the other Christians I know believe their faith. Furthermore, their beliefs were greatly influenced by what they were taught as children, what they learned growing up, and what the culture around them was.

Then I realized that, in an objective sense, there's no less reason to believe in these than Christianity. The thought in my mind was "how do you know YOU are right, when all these billions of others believe something contradictory and equally unprovaable with the same unshakable, unending belief?"

Furthermore, most people don't really HAVE an understanding of the other religions beside their own. They don't bother looking into it. If I found out that the true religion was that the blue men from the Moon would come and take us away to the moon's dark side for an eternity and you had to believe or else you'd dissapear forever when you died, and I tried to preach this, most people wouldn't just reject it... they'd never even have the chance to consider it, because they have been taught to believe something different.

So, even so, let's assume for a moment that Christ really was really the Christ, God is who I believe He is, etc. That concept still works. These other people are trying to reach God. God IS an infinite being, who cannot be conceptualized fully by any human being. So.. they're worshipping at least A God.

Muslims worship Allah, which is another of the many names of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of Israel, and our God the Father. They try worshipping God, and go by a believe they really have relatively little choice in changing, due to the culture and what they've been taught all their lives. Would God send them to an eternal torment simply because they were in error, even though they truly tried, and even got the right God to worship?

In addition, what about all the people who were born before Yahweh became the universal God? What about the ancient Greeks and everyone else. The Native Americans who lived over there and had no possibility of knowing God through his revelation to the Jews, and later, the Christians?

Are they cosigned to an eternal torment because of an accident of location? All of them?

What about all the babies who die without being old enough to comprehend, and choose God?

How about the Hindus who worship this highly complex series of gods that are, what, considered merely aspects of the undescribable divine? (am I accurate? It's been awhile since I studied Hinduism)

Is God not that same undescribable divine?

So, if God could reveal Himself to one people one way, the way that they need, and His nature change over time as His people understand more about themselves, the world aroudn them, and what God truly wants, (for the tribal Yahwists of the age of the Judges were henotheistic, not monotheistic, and thier god was a qualitatively different entity than their Jewish God today) why did he have to do it once? Why must He excluse everyone who believes slightly differently from a good afterlife, causing them to be tormented because... they are human? Is that all the reason?

Even through this, I feel hanging over my head the concept of Original Sin. However, that comes from the second story of creation, and that was just a story. It was created by the people as a creation myth.

I find that as my knowledge of everything related to this grows, so does my certainty that God could not be as some of these people says, a God that would send all these people to Hell, even though they try, even if they are not correct. And that's JUST assuming they're correct! Which they might not be! If they are wrong, does that mean that THEY should be cosigned to the fires of Hell? How fair would that be? It would be absurd...

Such a God that would do such things is no friend of us. He is in no way just, for there is no justice in such punishments. Humanity was made as He desired it to be. We had no choice in the matter. In fact, we had no choice to be born at all! And for something we had no choice in, we are to be punished for? Our basic nature is not of our choosing. We are to be made to suffer because we came into existence in a way we did not desire, and with qualities of imperfection that we do not want, but cannot undo, for they were done by others not ourselves? That is injustice. And a God that would act that way is unjust, imperfect.

And such a belief about God is an insult to His name. Such a belief lessens him, is not praise but instead derision, even if it's not meant to be. It is an insult to God to believe he is that unjust, that imperfect.

And that's only if they're right and God IS the same entity as they believe He is...

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0Megabyte
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Hey, jav, here's some of the actual reasoning behind my hyperbole over in the miscellanious thread. I didn't really believe the Satan bit, but it got the point across in a rather... interesting way. xD
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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by 0Megabyte:
Hey, jav, here's some of the actual reasoning behind my hyperbole over in the miscellanious thread. I didn't really believe the Satan bit, but it got the point across in a rather... interesting way. xD

Any chance we can do this in it's own thread?

I really don't want to see this tied back to this incident inappropriately.

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Richard Dey
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O'Meg:

But as a minister, an ordained and I presume degreed minister, it is his obligation to comprehend other religions -- at least Judaism and Catholicism, the precedents of his very own religion.

To impose his belief upon someone who might have had Jewish and Catholic and who knows how many other friends and acquaintances attending her funeral was grotesquely out of line for anyone purporting to be a purveyor of condolence.

The man was out of line not just as a Christian but as a human being. I daren't tell you what I do to a child of mine who pulled that trick.

Taking advantage of people when they're down is like these kids beating up drunks when they're down and out. It's in hopelessly bad taste.

Who the hell is somebody so surely damned to eternal etiquette school in hell to be telling anybody else where he belongs? Who so out of touch with personal grief has the right to sit smugly in judgment upon anybody?

Surely we have authorities to whom such sociopaths can be reported ...? or is he going to get away with it because he knows he can hide behind the cloth the way child-molesters hid behind a screen of shame?

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Funean
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It seems to me that the question this thread presents is whether the primary function of a funeral service is the exercise of religious rites (with possibly the added element of explicitly reaffirming the tenets of that religion, expressly for the benefit and comfort of the believing participants), or the gathering, for mutual comfort and shared sorrow,memory, and celebration of the deceased, of all those who loved that person (including, possibly, some not of the deceased's religious persuasion).

If it's the former, then the non-believing members in attendance are irrelevant at best, and their sensibilities need not be considered. If it's the latter, then it is gross, unkind and counter to the spirit and purpose of the occasion to make such explicitly exclusionary remarks.

In either case, I see no reason for a funeral service to be so darned unkind. I once attended a Catholic funeral service in which the mourners were told that to grieve was unchristian, as it suggested a lack of faith that one would be reunited with the deceased. As I have attended other Catholic services in which such a cruel and controlling statement was *not* made, I must suppose that such comments are sourced in the speaker, not the faith.

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KnightEnder
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"if you're an atheist then you don't believe in heaven, and you already believe you won't ever see her again. So he wasn't saying anything you didn't already know."--Adam

Adam, I don't believe in anything that it true, but I think/hope there exists a possibility that I will see her again in some other reality. Scientists and other religions posit many possibilities. And all of them would make what this guy said false. (So maybe I'm not a good atheist. I'm more of a Hoper.)

"Just remember that not all religious people are so cruel."--Morm

Morm, I do. Thanks.

Again, thanks for all your kind words and feelings.

And Jav, thanks for trying to protect my feelings, but if this branches off into other areas of theology that's fine with me.

I can't tell you how much y'alls words, actions, and thoughts have meant to me. Damn, now I'm tearing up again. It is amazing that people I've never met face to face can be so caring, and such an important part of my life. Guess I have OSC to thank for that. So, thank you all, again.

KE

[ October 16, 2006, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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Adam Masterman
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quote:
Adam, I don't believe in anything that it true, but I think/hope there exists a possibility that I will see her again in some other reality. Scientists and other religions posit many possibilities. And all of them would make what this guy said false. (So maybe I'm not a good atheist. I'm more of a Hoper.)
In my tradition, we say "may we meet again, in Sukhavati", which is a place where we appear as our truest selves, and can be of benefit to others. Its maybe not as comforting as the idea of a guaranteed heaven for believers, because who knows where the next rebirth will take place. Only our karma determines that, and not even the Buddha himself can change that. But there is great power in aspiration, if it is genuine. When we express the desire to be reunited with others in the pure land of Sukhavati, we plant a karmic seed that will eventually come to fruition. It could be millions of years in the future, but if your aspiration is real then eventually that karma will ripen.

Part of the way I connect with the bodhisattva vow (the ambition to liberate all beings) is to think that the only way I can be sure to benefit the people I love in this life is to never give up on even a single sentient being. In a million years, my mother and father from this life could be an enemy or a stranger. The only way to be sure that I won't abandon them is to vow not to abandon any being, ever:

"As long as space abides,
As long as sentient beings remain,
May I also remain,
To dispel the misery of the world."

Adam

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Mormegil
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Personally I think when someone has died, there is no good reason to talk about where they are now. Unless you know, and I mean *know*, that everyone involved believes the exact same thing.

I know I had a lot of people say, after my mother died, "she's in a better place now" but I know that isn't true. So that was a real kick in the gut.

That's right up there with "it was God's will" when someone is horribly killed.

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Richard Dey
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Now that's a sharp point, Morm!
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