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Author Topic: Muslim American organizations CIAR-PAC to vote Democrat...
winkey151
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From the things that I have read about these organizations... I wouldn't want their endorsement for my candidate.
And, if my candidate would promote the things that CIAR or PAC look for in a candidate... I would want my candidate to look very closely at those things.

Why are the interested in promoting the very things that encourage their fellow Muslim brothers in the Middle East to desire to kill us? Like promoting abortion and homosexual marriage? Aren't these some of the things that the Muslims who promoted coming here to kill us, said we deserved to die because of? It seems to me that they would want to promote candidates who would try to enforce laws that would keep the US from being so "sinful".

Unless they want to keep their Muslim brothers desire to kill us, in plenty of fuel.

Another thing that they look for in a candidate is less restraints in the immigration laws and less enforcement of our immigration laws by local law enforcement. They say that having local law enforcement involved in the enforcing of immigration laws will cause their people to suffer more civil rights infringements.

I don't know about you... but something smells a little rotten in Denmark. [Eek!]

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kenmeer livermaile
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Why expect AmericanMuslims to be more logical than their non-Muslim fellow Americans? Most Americans support with their voting hand things they contradict with their lives.
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DonaldD
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More to the point, why do you assume that a) moderate US Muslim citizens care about what foreign fanatics think, or b) that the dem and rep party positions can be distilled down to pro/anti abortion? That's quite aside from the practical fact that the Republican party has been riding anti-abortion sentiment for electoral purposes since Roe v. Wade, as opposed to effectively legislating against it.

You'll note that I did not repeat your mischaracterization of the equality rights debate as "promotimg... homosexual marriage".

US Muslim citizens are and should be very concerned about the different parties' position on civil and human rights, and would probably support a broader reading of the bill of rights rather than one that narrows protections. I would also guess they are very concerned about how the different parties interpret the establishment clause, which has a far more direct effect on their being able to protect their children from the onslaught of already ubiquitous Christianity.

Your musing is roughly equivalent to asking why Christians support Republicans in such numbers. In theory, Christians should support the party that takes care of children and the poor. Since the Republican party is all about helping big business at the expense of the poor...

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Storm Saxon
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It's CAIR, not CIAR.
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Matteo522
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quote:
In theory, Christians should support the party that takes care of children and the poor. Since the Republican party is all about helping big business at the expense of the poor...
Just as a quick aside... that's not necessarily true. Christians believe in helping children and the poor, but that doesn't mean the government has to be the one to do it. They're perfectly fine tithing at church (where most churches donate a large amount of money to poverty relief) and giving to organizations like the Red Cross. If they vote for a party that, theoretically, should be lowering taxes, that gives them more money to donate to the poor and less that goes to social programs they don't believe in.

Anyway, I don't want to derail the conversation. I just wanted to debunk at least that accusation of hypocrisy (plenty of other hypocrisy exists that we can get them on).

Matt

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Storm Saxon:
It's CAIR, not CIAR.

Oops... sorry.
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Dagonee
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Does the opening post amount to anything more than "The Democrats are bad because Muslims like them?"

OK, it amounts to a little bit - a very little bit - more:

1.) Real Muslims oppose the Democrats on two social issues.
2.) There must be a reason for going against their beliefs on these two issues.
3.) This is the reason: "they want to keep their Muslim brothers desire to kill us, in plenty of fuel."

There is an actual issue being advocated by CAIR listed - immigration enforcement - but there's no source that overcomes the immediate integrity issues raised by the first section.

In short, I'm hard pressed to see anything else here but a very old form of bigotry akin to "The Catholics will all betray us to the Pope."

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DonaldD
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quote:
Just as a quick aside... that's not necessarily true...

I just wanted to debunk at least that accusation of hypocrisy

That was kinda my point, Matt [Smile]
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Jesse
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My eye started twitching at "promote abortion", and then I quit reading.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Ooh... didn't catch that. Eek. Winkey, where DO you get these ideas?

Promote abortion: like an obstetrician version of an ambulance chaser or something... eewww.

I can read the testimonials now:

"I lost TWENTY-FIVE POUNDS through a Life Changes(t) abortion. Try it now!"

or:

"Ask your doctor if a lifestyle abortion is for you."

[ October 22, 2006, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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winkey151
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Well... I have never heard either of these organizations come out against the belief systems of those who attacked us. So I assume that they, by their silence and financial backing of organizations who sympathize with terrorists, agree with them that America pretty much deserved what we got. (And no,I am not talking about all Muslims in America.) Also... the reasons I have heard the leaders of these organizations, who are bent on destroying us, give for wanting to kill us is... that we are all immoral sinners and infidels, pigs, homosexuals and big time fornicators.
So I figured that the people in these organizations would want to vote for people who would make laws to help rid the world of these types of things. Instead of voting for people who would make laws that make it easier for these things to continue.
This is not a post about whether or not we should have abortion legal or homosexual marriage... it is about these organizations support for candidates who will keep laws on the books to make it easier for us infidels to continue on in our sin and the big question... why don't they want to vote for people who will make laws that stop these things that they are so against?

[ October 22, 2006, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Well... I have never heard either of these organizations come out against the belief systems of those who attacked us. So I assume that they...
[url=http://www.cair.com/html/911statements.html[/url]

quote:
CAIR statements on the events of September 11

"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts.

"All members of the Muslim community are asked to offer whatever help they can to the victims and their families. Muslim medical professionals should go to the scenes of the attacks to offer aid and comfort to the victims.

September 11 statement by the CAIR

"We at the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with the entire American Muslim community are deeply saddened by the massive loss of life resulting from the tragic events of September 11. American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all American in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."

CAIR full page add, Washington Post, September 16.

"American Muslims, who unequivocally condemned today terrorist attacks on our nation, call on you to alert fellow citizens to the fact that now is a time for all of us to stand together in the face of this heinous crime."

I'm not going to do 5 years of web searches for you, but I'm sure you can find others.
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kenmeer livermaile
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Oops. I better denounce the Crusades and the Inquisition and the persecution of Jews before I vote for a Christian Democrat. Too old to be relevant? OK. I hereby denounce the Christian justification given by President McKinley for our savage invasion of the Philippines in 1898. Still too old? I hereby denounce pedophilia by Catholic priests. Don't want be seen as harboring the enemy. [Eek!]

[ October 22, 2006, 10:12 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Gaoics79
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Dag, I'm not familiar with this particular Muslim group, so my comments should not be taken to mean that I think this group does not condemn terrorism.

BUT... every Muslim group that I have personally read about or heard about on the news has made similar statements, and then immediately proceeded to put in the all important BUT (just as I did) at which point they more or less blamed the United States for being the target of the terrorists, and came off as more or less sympathetic with the terrorists.

It's what I've come to think of as left handed condemnation: we condemn XYZ in the strongest measure possible... BUT we understand why they did it, and it's not a big deal anyway, and by the way, you deserved it, so stop making trouble over it. It's six of one, two dozen of the other.

[ October 22, 2006, 10:10 PM: Message edited by: jasonr ]

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Dagonee
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jasonr, even so, those BUTs seldom relate to abortion and homosexual marriage.

I have seen such left-handed condemnations as you describe. But I think even those considerably weaken or dissolve the case presented in the opening post.

And we only look to the condemnations if we grant the highly questionable assumptions inherent in this chain of reasoning: not condemning terrorist acts => support for terrorism motivated by abortion and homosexual rights => desire to stoke the bloodlust of the terrorists.

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Gaoics79
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Sorry Dag, I find the whole argument going on in this thread kind of fuzzy and difficult to follow. I was simply responding to a very specific point you had made. I have no opinion on the main point of this thread (whatever it is).
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kenmeer livermaile
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To note that we've been stirring up trouble in the Middle East for several decades at least is not to endorse the murder of 3000 innocent persons.

One can denounce what one percieves as a crime (USA intervention in the Middle East) without endorsing a given punishment of that perceived crime. One can even say to the (perceived) criminal, "Hey, that judge really did you wrong, but yo, you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'

Great thing about a democracy is the wide divergence of expressed views it tends to allow.

'Over there', lotsa ragheads, pretty much the majority, I gather, view our dealings with Saddam/Iran over the decades, and our recent (re)invasion of Iraq, as a similar form of misguided 'punishment' or even misguided attempt to reform a criminal.

Me? I think both acts were criminal: 911 and our invasion of Iraq. But then, I'm neither a Muslim nor a Xtian...

[ October 22, 2006, 10:30 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Dagonee
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quote:
Originally posted by jasonr:
Sorry Dag, I find the whole argument going on in this thread kind of fuzzy and difficult to follow. I was simply responding to a very specific point you had made. I have no opinion on the main point of this thread (whatever it is).

OK. I agree with that point. I just didn't want that agreement used (by someone else, not you) to further this.
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winkey151
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Maybe I can interest you in the "inspiring piece" written by John Cory?

Muslim American Society... Voting is Power.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
They're perfectly fine tithing at church (where most churches donate a large amount of money to poverty relief)
That explains the huge stadium size churches/malls and the huge houses the preachers live in.

quote:
that we are all immoral sinners and infidels, pigs, homosexuals and big time fornicators.
So I figured that the people in these organizations would want to vote for people who would make laws to help rid the world of these types of things. Instead of voting for people who would make laws that make it easier for these things to continue.

So, Democrats make laws that make it easier for us to be immoral sinner, pigs, homosexuals, and big time fornicators?

Besides that being crap, the reason Muslims want to kill us are A) We are not Muslims, B) We support the Jews, C) We are Christians, and D) We keep ****ing around in their part of the world. You have to go all the way to E) to find that they want to kill us for being big time immoral homosexual pig ****ers. [Smile]

KE

[ October 23, 2006, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: KnightEnder ]

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winkey151
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You have to forgive me KE... I am too tired to respond right now. I just went all the way to E. [Eek!]
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Dagonee
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quote:
Maybe I can interest you in the "inspiring piece" written by John Cory?
Very interesting piece, indeed. Now that one Muslim has given you a reason other than wanting to inspire bloodlust, maybe you can take back some of your more ignorant conclusions?
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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagonee:
quote:
Maybe I can interest you in the "inspiring piece" written by John Cory?
Very interesting piece, indeed. Now that one Muslim has given you a reason other than wanting to inspire bloodlust, maybe you can take back some of your more ignorant conclusions?
If you were actually inspired by that piece... then no words of mine need to be said.
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Wayward Son
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quote:
If you were actually inspired by that piece... then no words of mine need to be said.
Although the partisan characterization of Republicans and their policies in that piece is quite heavy-handed (i.e. strawman crap), the sentiments are universal and laudable (vote for peace, for helping others, etc).

Many Democrats and others feels that the current Republican administration have enacted policies, and not enacted other policies, that have been an overall detriment to the United States. You may disagree, but that's politics for you. No one agree on everything, and for any one or set of policies, there are those who will strongly disagree.

But there is nothing remotely "terrorist" about that essay. I would characterize it as being as patriotic in intent as anything I've read (although as political in content as anything I've read, too).

If you find the tone of the piece to have anything to do with your initial post (Muslim organization promoting Democrats to ultimately enrage the Muslim world)--well, I think we can pretty much dismiss just about anything further you say on the subject. Your POV is so far removed from reality that there is no common ground for us to discuss.

Or perhaps I am reading too much into your post. Exactly what is it that you decry about John Cory's essay?

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Dagonee
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quote:
If you were actually inspired by that piece... then no words of mine need to be said.
Where did I say I was inspired. I thought it was partisan dreck based on dishonest implicit premises.

It's certainly not any worse than other examples of partisan dreck, form both sides of the aisle.

Was your point simply that the set of people willing to engage in partisan hackery happens to include at least on Muslim? OK, point made, but I think I already knew that.

This guy is likely to be voting exactly opposite me in the upcoming elections. That doesn't meant I think it's right to accuse him of goading America into sinning that so foreign Muslims will want our blood.

And, if that's not what you're saying, I'm wondering what point you thought that article made. It seems to me you're still trying to say, "Muslims support Democrats, so Democrats are bad." And that's atrocious.

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kenmeer livermaile
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[Eek!] Wow wink. As in, 'whatever'. [Eek!]

Anyone kow if John Cory is even a Muslim? Are Muslims forabde to vote or have political opinions in America? Do you think it's bad for Muslims to promote American patriotism among Muslim American citizens? Or... whatever ARE you saying? It doesn't involve *birds* does it? [Eek!]

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winkey151
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I am sorry that I used the word "inspired" when referring to how you felt about the piece, Dagonee. I wasn't inferring that you live your life by such ideals. Please forgive me.

Kenmeer...
I don't believe that John Cory is a Muslim. He is a soldier who lost a limb in Afghanistan (I believe that is where it happened) and it is understandable why he would write such a piece. I just thought that it was interesting that the piece was placed on the front page of Muslim American Society's Voting Is Power website.
I am sorry but I am suspicious of the intentions of these organizations promoting any candidate. That is why I said in the beginning that I wouldn't want them endorsing my candidate and if they did... I would look into why they were endorcing him.

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kenmeer livermaile
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Uh, wink. Cory was in Nam in '69. or so it says at the bottom of his editorial. but then, you can't trust those muslims...

"John Cory is a Vietnam veteran. He received the Purple Heart and Bronze Star with V device, 1969 - 1970. © : t r u t h o u t 2004"

[ October 23, 2006, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: kenmeer livermaile ]

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Kent
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"Who would the terrorists rather have me vote for?" is going to be a question many people will ask themselves going to the polls. It doesn't help Democrats when any Muslims say to vote Democrat.

[ October 23, 2006, 02:39 PM: Message edited by: Kent ]

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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by kenmeer livermaile:
Uh, wink. Cory was in Nam in '69. or so it says at the bottom of his editorial. but then, you can't trust those muslims...

"John Cory is a Vietnam veteran. He received the Purple Heart and Bronze Star with V device, 1969 - 1970. © : t r u t h o u t 2004"

Thanks Ken... I knew I could count on you.
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winkey151
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quote:
Originally posted by Kent:
"Who would the terrorists rather have me vote for?" is going to be a question many people will ask themselves going to the polls. It doesn't help Democrats when any Muslims say to vote Democrat.

Kent.... that was my thought about it. I don't think it is helpful for any candidate to have their support and to many... I am sure that CAIR's endorsements will make them feel as squeamish as it makes me feel.

[ October 23, 2006, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: winkey151 ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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""Who would the terrorists rather have me vote for?" is going to be a question many people will ask themselves going to the polls."

Bush is already testing the message that the insurgents/terrorists are maximizing violence right now with USA voters in mind. Ramadan, I suppose, is just a lucky bonus violence intensifier or something. Never mind the notion that violence in a torn populace increases as it becomes perceived as an increasingly viable means of getting what one wants, whether one wants USA troops to leave, or a local gang of one's own, or to further local jihad, or simply have a war of one's own since there seems to be one going on round you that you didn't ask for in the first place (can't beat 'em, join 'em; can't join 'em, beat 'em...)

...but does anyone note the terrific irony of Bush 'politicizing' the motives of Iraqi insurgents? Manifold irony:

a) Anti-war Dems have been accused of politicizing everything from dental floss to investigation of Halliburton corruption. Pot calling kettle black sorta thing.

b) Iraqi insurgents' attempts to discourage the American plebiscite via the Tet offensive model are alleged to be given more weight now, in the closing stages of a hot USA election cycle, than are Iraqi insurgents' attempts to influence their local, regional and -- dare I say it -- national politics by an unremitting string of violent putsches, assassinations, kidnappings, terrorist explosions, direct copnfrontations of occupying foregin troops... I guess Bush was serious when he said he was willing to consider new approaches to our involvement in Iraq:

'We'll beat the foreign insurgents at the American polls. Americans, put your purple fingerprints on and show the Itraqis that we are all one at the polls: that is, if you vote Republican.'

As if it mattered, in this topc, whether the Republicans hold their majority or not. Either way, the populce has spoken and the war must prove itself successful or conclude....

"Thanks Ken... I knew I could count on you."

Anytime, wink. I just wanted to make it clear that Cory is an unwitting dupe of the VC, not al-qaeda...

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KnightEnder
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quote:
"John Cory is a Vietnam veteran. He received the Purple Heart and Bronze Star with V device, 1969 - 1970. © : t r u t h o u t 2004"

I'll withhold judgement until I hear what the Swift Boat Veterans have to say! [Confused] [Mad]

KE

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kenmeer livermaile
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In the How Like Our Enemies We Become department, this, about republican Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison of that great state of Texas, currently up for reelection:

<begin>
In July 2004, the Senate Intelligence Committee found that key U.S. assertions leading to the Iraq war _ that Saddam Hussein had chemical and biological weapons and was working to make nuclear weapons _ were wrong or based on faulty CIA analyses. The findings were supported by members of both parties.

A Democratic Senate panel released a report saying the White House painted a portrait of Iraq of having ties to al-Qaida based in part on intelligence it knew was flawed. The panel concluded that Hussein's government had rejected overtures from al-Qaida and thought Islamic extremists were a threat to his regime.

Republicans attacked the report as recycled information and accused Democrats of election-year politicking on the eve of the fifth anniversary of the terrorist attacks.

+++
But Hutchison spokesman Marc Short said no intelligence information is ever perfect.

"The senator relied upon information from the CIA, conclusions of the British intelligence and the fact that Saddam Hussein had expelled the (weapons) inspectors," he said. "And it's the same conclusion that Hillary Clinton and John Kerry came to that there must be weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and we must go to war to get rid of them."
<end>

So then, Senator Hutchison has joined the charge whereby Dems no longer try to be Repub-lite and Repub now try to appear to be Dem-like.

I love democracy, don't you? Not quite as much as a good Marx Bros. late-night movie, but almost...

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kenmeer livermaile
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Googling John Cory, we find:

There are no politics in war. Politics is the luxury of the safe-at-home. War is a lottery of survival.
John Cory

There is no morality in war. Morality is the privilege of those judging from the distance. War is only death and destruction.
John Cory

War is eternity jammed into frantic minutes that will fill a lifetime with dreams and nightmares.
John Cory

War is the cemetery of futures promised.
John Cory

War is the tool of small-minded scoundrels who worship the death of others on the altar of their greed.
John Cory

Him got a website:

John Cory

Googling John Cory Swift Boat, we read:

Jonathan Swift

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Jesse
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"why don't they want to vote for people who will make laws that stop these things that they are so against?"

You're assuming they agree with your apparent postion that ranting and railing about these things while not passing laws to stop them is somehow good, AND with your postion that passing laws would actually stop these things.

Awful lot of assumptions.

When we looked around on the morning of the 9/11 attacks, and asked "why", many American Muslim writers and groups tried to give us an answer to the best of their ability.

For the most part, they were accused of excusing the attacks. Silly them, trying to talk to the rest of us.

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KnightEnder
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quote:
You have chosen vanity over valor, hubris over honor, character assassination and fraud over fact. You have chosen to enfold yourself in the shadows of partisan politics while sniping at those who stand in the open light of their record. You have chosen to wear the uniform of shame.

No sirs, with all due respect, I submit that it is you, who are Unfit.



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javelin
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightEnder:
quote:
You have chosen vanity over valor, hubris over honor, character assassination and fraud over fact. You have chosen to enfold yourself in the shadows of partisan politics while sniping at those who stand in the open light of their record. You have chosen to wear the uniform of shame.

No sirs, with all due respect, I submit that it is you, who are Unfit.



I assume this is directed at our government as a whole, and thus, to a lesser degree, everyone in this country? If not, it should be. [Smile]

[ October 23, 2006, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: javelin ]

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kenmeer livermaile
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No conducting of polls on Ornery without prior authorization, jav. [Wink]
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Wayward Son
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quote:
I assume this is directed at our government as a whole, and thus, to a lesser degree, everyone in this country? If not, it should be.
I googled the quote, and found it in a letter from John Cory to the Swift Vote Veterans. So, not directly at our government...
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